48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Topic: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM (Read 3405 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #50 – December 29, 2017, 10:34:56 pm

Jim C, my panels are 420watts.

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #51 – December 29, 2017, 10:51:50 pm

Quote from: bbeane – December 29, 2017, 10:34:56 pm

Jim C, my panels are 420watts.

Bruce, do they fit from side to side on your coach roof? Mine are about 78 inches, but they are only 320 watts.
I would like to upgrade but only have rear of coach to put panels on.

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #52 – December 29, 2017, 11:01:07 pm

Mine are 51x77or 81 they are longways one
On front and one on the back. I suppose you could turn them cross ways and keep the to one side for roof access.

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #53 – December 29, 2017, 11:12:32 pm

Quote from: Tim – December 29, 2017, 10:29:39 pm

Yes, another recommendation is not to buy a cheap Chinese inverter, the HGP pure sine wave model from Electric Car Parts Company. It draws too much overhead current and the 48V charger current is only 15 amps, so it takes a while for the genny to charge up the lithiums. I would recommend Victron products because they are not too much more expensive than the chinese equipment.

The Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf battery packs are about 360 Volts, so they would have to be modified to bring them down to the 48VDC range.

You can buy the individual batteries out of the leaf 360 volt pack. Would it not be easier to buy them, and wire them for 12 volts? That way you could use the more common 12 volt inverters with big chargers etc.
60Ah Nissan Leaf Battery Module

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #54 – December 29, 2017, 11:17:12 pm

Quote from: bbeane – December 29, 2017, 11:01:07 pm

Mine are 51x77or 81 they are longways one
On front and one on the back. I suppose you could turn them cross ways and keep the to one side for roof access.

That would work fine, I do not have a rear ladder so rear access is not important. Who did you get them from?

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #55 – December 29, 2017, 11:24:15 pm

Jim I got them from Solar Mike in Slab City Ca., he installed the whole system. I do however sea some on the internet.

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #56 – December 30, 2017, 01:26:14 am

Quote from: Tim – December 29, 2017, 04:06:59 pm

Blah, blah, blah...

That said, we still had heat, water and light in the coach, since the engine battery was wired up as an instant backup to the 48VDC lithium battery.

Tim

I think this is perfectly acceptable. How often do you travel in these conditions? If often you need to do a ground up redesign/rethink of expectiations. Otherwise do as most of us do in the summer heat. Turn on the generator and run the house air or in your case the furnace/electric heaters. Short days and low sun angle make it tough to rely on solar alone (the further north you are the worse it gets). Thankfully you have options/backups to survive these conditions.

As Roger said an alternator upgrade wouldn't hurt.

Thanks for all your write ups. I'm thinking of going Lithium when my batteries bite the dust. Your experience is helpful to a lot of us.

With the limited solar setup I have (720w) I've learned that more is better.

see ya
ken

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #57 – December 30, 2017, 07:09:31 am

Quote from: jcus – December 29, 2017, 11:12:32 pm

You can buy the individual batteries out of the leaf 360 volt pack. Would it not be easier to buy them, and wire them for 12 volts? That way you could use the more common 12 volt inverters with big chargers etc.
60Ah Nissan Leaf Battery Module

Each module is 7.6 to 8.4 volts so you can't make a 12 volt or even a 24 volt battery. There is a story on the web of a bus conversion with a 48 volt setup made from a Leaf pack with one module added at: Beginning from this Morning

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #58 – December 30, 2017, 08:48:24 am

I built a small 12 volt pack out of Leaf batteries. I had to break open the module/large tin can by unfolding a large metal crimp surrounding the module, which is very hard to do. Then I wired the batteries in parallel and ended up shorting two together. Some sparks but no fire. So it would be better to have a higher voltage pack, say 48 V. And parallel those modules together to get the desired kilowatt hour capacity.

I am thinking of doing a video series called "Tim's Tips" about the Foretravel solar conversion.

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #59 – December 30, 2017, 10:27:25 am

Would this one work? Victron Quattro 48 Volt / 5000 VA / 70 Amp Pure Sine Wave Inverter/Charger

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #60 – December 30, 2017, 12:08:43 pm

While I like the Victron equipment I have asked before several times for details on their equipment.

Having been in the burn ward long ago I asked if anyone can verify that a Victron piece of equipment is UL approved?

Secondly does anyone know is your coach insurance requires UL approved appliances?

My understanding is no and yes.

Several boating forums mention that they use a Victron inverter/ Charger in their engine bays but Victron does not state their units are not spark generators.

Magnum states they there inverter ps are not certified to be non spark producing. Requires a special design.

So the yacht guys have a possible spark producing appliance mounted in a possible flammable vapor area.

No warning.

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #61 – December 30, 2017, 12:46:56 pm

Bob, if you are required to use only UL approved equipment then why keep asking. You can find the answer to this question as easily as anyone else. Victron equipment looks to be certified under all applicaple requirements world wide. UL is doing their best to catch up to the standards used by everyone else. If Victron equipment wasn't safe they wouldn't sell much of it.

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #62 – December 30, 2017, 01:55:49 pm

As I did not KNOW if a Victron is UL approved I am asking.

The Victron EU standards mentioned on their website refer to specific steps.

The standards I have seen require a photograph/ drawing of the boards layout to be sent with the manufacturers forms for a approval.

UL reauires two of the particular units for testing in house. Or a certified external lab.

Same question for those who own a Victron appliance. Should be easy to look. I do not own any Victron appliances personally and my inverter repair place (Bio Benefit energy in Costa Mesa,Ca) and my installer had never seen one.

You would think the boat guys who installed an inveter/Charger in a gas engine boats engine compartment might like to know that their appliance was NOT designed or certified to not produce sparks?

I checked on this because i used to carry 5 gallon propane tanks in the bays. A separate bay from a non spark certified inverter would seem to be a good idea.

Magnum is ambulance certified where others are not.

As a oem manufacturer the non UL liability could be a serious liability.

Too many vapors in a rv. Too flammable of construction. To hard to exit quickly.

Every other electrical appliance in your home or rv is UL approved for a reason

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #63 – December 30, 2017, 02:11:36 pm

I would think if they have been used in the Marine industry and are a leading brand it would be safe to assume they are safe as in real world experiences they have not been the cause of any destruction.

In the engine compartment of a boat is a lot different than our basements ( I think anyways) .. boats are air tight in those areas and my basement is not.

if it is safe on the water... rest assured it wont hurt you on the road. Are the Magnum Marine rated? Or are there specific units for marine?

What I can tell you when my inverter went out it made a very load pop/bang and melted part of the board .. it was UL listed .. I can assure you that it was super hot and a small explosion would have set off any fumes regardless of the stamp on the outside of it.

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #64 – December 30, 2017, 02:28:33 pm

Magnum states in the literature and on their website that they are NOT non spark certified and should not be used in a vapor area.

Not sure if a boats requirements are the same as an rv which needs a DOH sticker to be legal for sale in California.

As far as I know the DOH requires UL appliances as does RVIA stds.

EU standards as I understand it do not cover board interconnections and do not involve physical testing of sample units.

Bay marine sells a lot of Victron appliances for boats. That's nice. I doubt if he ever heard or knows if they are UL approved.

I am not an attorney and do not play one here or on tv but a failure that damages anything including a storage structure that could be traced to a non UL appliance would almost certainly allow an insurance company to refuse coverage...

To allow a legal out is too easy.

Guys I do no care if YOU use and have great luck with whatever appliances you choose. My only issue was the lack of pertinent info.

Non of us has probably seen or been offerred for sale in the US of a non UL approved appliance for a reason

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #65 – December 30, 2017, 02:34:52 pm

sometimes you can get info overload and cause some to dwell on substance that isnt an issue when tested in the real world.. California is its own animal and I would assume that if its legal in california it must be good for you.. some ppl live there because it makes them feel safe with all the rules and regulations but at the end of the day it just ppl who think your to dumb to think for yourself..

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #66 – January 05, 2018, 04:26:21 pm

See my Youtube video about this system at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s1Vx2z8x0M

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #67 – January 05, 2018, 04:31:45 pm

With the number 6 economy in the world and almost as many tourists visiting as France, California must be doing something right.

Pierce

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #68 – February 15, 2018, 07:25:02 pm

For more lessons learned, see my Youtube video at: Tim's RV Tips #2 - Solar Lessons Learned, January 20, 2018 - YouTube

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #69 – February 15, 2018, 09:59:59 pm

Yep California is doing right, broke, infrastructure falling apart, high taxes, no water, not to mention crime in the big cites. Yep they be doing just fine.

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #70 – February 15, 2018, 10:09:45 pm

Quote from: Tim – February 15, 2018, 07:25:02 pm

For more lessons learned, see my Youtube video at: Tim's RV Tips #2 - Solar Lessons Learned, January 20, 2018 - YouTube

Tim, in retrospect, would you do an all 12 volt system next time?

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #71 – February 16, 2018, 04:34:50 pm

I would recommend:

1. A 48 volt system with at least 20kwh capacity. This would reduce the IR (Current time Resistance squared) significantly and reduce wire size, weight and cost by 88 percent, if my calculations are correct. My 9.2kwh battery does the job, but on cloudy days under trees, the extra battery capacity would reduce "power anxiety".

2. An inverter that has low-overhead, which means low quiescent power draw. Mine has 100 watts...too much. Perhaps Victron. Perhaps two inverters would be advisable: one for low-power demand and one to run the high-power appliances like the microwave, refrigerator, AC, strip heater, engine pre-heater, etc...

3. Separate charger and inverter. If one unit fails, at least you have partial functionality.

4. Backup 12 volt battery if the 48 volt system is depleted. I am using the engine battery for this and it works well. This is needed for essential 12 volt systems like the heater and refrigerator.

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #72 – February 16, 2018, 08:15:48 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – January 05, 2018, 04:31:45 pm

With the number 6 economy in the world and almost as many tourists visiting as France, California must be doing something right.

Pierce

I think luck has a lot to do with it.. it has beaches and water on 1 border.. They lucked out with that .. they have productive soil in some areas a some really nice mountainous area in others. The weather for the most part is good..

Just because they visit .. doesnt make it a great place to live... if it was so good they would all be staying there instead of visiting. I would add that it hasnt always been a liberal state it has just gotten worse the last 10 yrs..sad as I live next door in Nevada and typically like Californian ... I dont visit it as much as I want too do to the fact of the gas prices and the idiots that run the state.

Tim it seems a lot of work to reinvent the wheel so to speak.. wouldnt it be easier to just work with the 12v system? In the long run? and cheaper to say the least?

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #73 – February 16, 2018, 08:38:38 pm

Victron is popular here. Nice integrated colorful system. I personally wanted more power than our former freedom 25 had so I went with the sw2812. 30 watt idle current consumption. If I changed from mk gels to lifeline AGM the sw has the profile internally for them plus can equalize them if needed

We currently live in south Orange County, ca. Near the beach. Two older convertibles. Folks moved me here 66 years ago. Crowded. Expensive. Run by lunatics.

We have my mom's townhouse to sell in sun city. Las Vegas. Nicest spot in a 55+ community. Nicer adjoined home than our separated detached condo/townhome.

Almost three times more money to buy the so cal place. Neighbors cashing out because of it.

"You can check out but you can never leave" applies to us I think.

74 degrees beautiful day today.

Re: 48 VOLT SOLAR LITHIUM SYSTEM

Reply #74 – February 16, 2018, 09:25:55 pm

Quote from: DavidS – February 16, 2018, 08:15:48 pm

Tim it seems a lot of work to reinvent the wheel so to speak.. wouldnt it be easier to just work with the 12v system? In the long run? and cheaper to say the least?

Not speaking for Tim but with the research I've been doing on lithium the most popular battery looks to be the 18650. This is the battery Tesla uses in it's cars and is what Tesla will be building at it's new Giga Battery plant plus China has about a dozen 18650 factories. Tesla uses 6,800 of these batteries in the Model S. The battery pack for the Model S is $40,000. Which comes out to about $5.80 per cell. Probably closer to $5 after you delete costs for the battery package. $5 is about what 1 18650 sells for on ebay also. I've seen group buys on the lithium forums for a $1 a battery. The buy was for 20,000 batteries of 2 year old lower mA batteries. The batteries will get cheaper as more factories come online.

Amazon.com: LG HE4 IMR 18650 2500mah 35A batteries | 4-Pack | authentic...

The problem is that when you put 4 of these 3.7v batteries in series it's 14.8v. Our systems can probably handle the 14.8v but to charge the batteries you're looking at almost 17v. No current current charger can hit that so you are looking at a new charger/inverter to go with your batteries. At that point price wise the 48v system isn't that much more and has advantages with wire size and a boating industry that has a lot of 48v systems available.

That's how I understand it anyway. Somebody correct me it I have this wrong.

BTW: This youtube Tony Seba: Clean Disruption - Energy & Transportation total brought me around to deciding my next batteries (1 to 2 years) are going to be lithium and probably DYI. Do a youtube search for DYI Powerwall and start looking around. It doesn't look that hard just tedious.

Just for fun a couple of pics of the Tesla battery pack.

see ya
ken

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