Advice on permanent alternator removal

Topic: Advice on permanent alternator removal (Read 2178 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #25 – June 09, 2018, 02:08:33 am

You could use a MC-614-H by BALMAR to keep them charged. You MUST use a BMS for LiFepo4. The Balmar will have to be set up for it using the advanced settings.
The lithium system my coach has is all Victron with the BMS built in. Expensive. The Lithium system he is building is Chinese calb cells or similar. Not bad but must use a good bms. Again, though, not sure why you need to complicate the situation. Put all your lithium into a house bank charged by a good solar controller and inverter/charger. Put in some agms or gels for starting batt. Your good to go. Want to get fancy, put in some big capacitors. Engine start capacitors MAXWELL ULTRA31/1800 GROUP 31 12V ENGINE START MODULE ESM BATTERY 1800 CCA $1050 plus shipping but its only 21 lbs..
Or go with nice agm like NorthStar Group 31 AGM 1150 CCA NorthStar $750 plus shipping. but its 152 lbs! So for a few more bucks the Maxwell ultraCapacitor will get you a great cranking battery that recharges in minutes, Will crank your engine without a problem. Keep your alternator to run things when the engine is going.
I would go with the Maxwell.
Bob

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #26 – June 09, 2018, 02:25:37 am

Quote from: CRY42 – June 08, 2018, 08:36:43 pm

Technomadia has an interesting read on this subject, when they converted their batteries, not for sure if they are the same type.

http://www.technomadia.com/lithium/

They are essentially the same battery. And they ruined them by not placing in a more controlled environment. Lithium batteries don't like to be too hot, or to cold, like Goldilocks, they want to be juuuussssttt right. More finicky for sure over gel or agm, but you get batteries that over its life cycle will get you more cycles, which means less moolah in the long term, Better performance, and longer life time, lighter too. But you have to pay attention. Many will say "they cost to much" but that is kind of funny considering some of those same people will pay >110K$ for a coach, 20K for a full paint job, and such. But in the end, its just money, you can't take it with you, and your kids will just blow it on stupid stuff, so make yourself happy and get what you want. I have been running the front air conditioner off my lithium's until put in the shore power at my house. It will run for several hours with the solar putting out 1100 watts or so. Can't do that on lead acid. And that doesn't use all the capacity. Also lithium has more usable amps than any other battery technology atm. So a 600 amp hour bank will give you 480 amp hours of usable capacity. To get that with lead acid you need well over 1100 amp hours. Its very difficult to put in the last amps on a lead acid setup, but not with lithium. and if you go below 50 % SOC with lead acid, you shorten its life span significantly. Not so with lithium. You can go down to 20%.
The firefly battery is the only lead acid tech that I would consider, but they are not cheap either.
But still, you can get my with good old trojan T105s golf cart batteries and call it a day, replace them every 4 years or so and be ok. Just not for me. Unless these blow up or something.....

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #27 – June 09, 2018, 10:06:40 am

The temp control as was stated would be a hard to overcome issue for most in my opinion.

Would seem to require an interior relocation and to need continious temp moderation.

That need was the main reason why I did not purchase a li-ion system five years ago.

We are not pedestal to pedestal users. Or like the gen on 24/7.

But a lot of owners do have temp controls on all the time. Maybe a good item for them.

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #28 – June 09, 2018, 01:18:17 pm

I read Technomadia's article and incorporated their lessons about LFP batteries:

- Temperature control
- SOC control

The problem with today's smart regulators is that they do not address SOC control at the CELL level:

SMART REGULATOR SHORTCOMINGS WHEN CHARGING LFP BATTERIES
1. Use alternator temperature and voltage to regulate current.
I do not want to:
— Heat up the alternator
— Dump 100+Amps into the charging circuit
— Stress the alternator belt and bearings
— Increase fuel consumption

2. Can overcharge / damage one or more LFP cells

3. Cannot balance charge, which provides better performance.

4. Cannot "storage" charge, which increases longevity. Lithium batteries should be stored at 50% SOC.
— When a trip is planned, my iCharger 4010 will be set to fully charge the batteries from shore or solar power.

Thanks for the suggestions. There are some smart LFP batteries on the market that would charge from an alternator, but their price is about 8x of my proposed solution.

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #29 – June 09, 2018, 01:29:54 pm

My electric bike shop in Solana beach,ca builds individual cell BMS for li ion battery packs for the San Diego rickshaw owners that ride tourists around. I watched a controller he made up slowly turn off individual led's on a panel denoting that group of cells was done being balanced. I think he was doing three cells at once.

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #30 – June 11, 2018, 05:36:50 am

Tim a good bms will do what your looking for.

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #31 – June 11, 2018, 06:41:29 am

Tim in answer to your earlier question. Yes I do have a BMS. I too installed an all Victron system which has individual cell management built into each battery and then connected to a Victron BMS. I wanted a fully integrated system that did not require trouble shooting conflicts across multiple vendors. AM Solar has created a temperature control board and I am attaching the schematic.. My battery's are on the original battery rack so air flows over and around them. They are not boxed in. Temperatures are monitored both within the battery and in the compartment. The battery compartment is directly under the couch so I am looking at providing cooling directly from the coach before we head west later this summer. Fumes are no longer an issue.

As to the Technomedia article, cutting edge single installs may or may not be dispositive of other systems. They did not ruin their battery's as in no longer usable but did shorten their life cycle. When I installed these almost two years ago, I was hoping for a horizon of 8 years or 76 years of age on the old man. At the present rate they should have more than half their cycles ahead of them. We enjoy their capabilities especially the charge profile and how nicely they compliment solar.

Note the schematic is the entire system. 1180 solar with 85 controller, 702 battery monitor, 3000 Multipass inverter with control panel, CCGX color monitor, Lynx bar and for me two 200AH battery's. Only two control boards are lithium specific.

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #32 – June 11, 2018, 08:24:50 am

You might find this of interest.

Advanced ICs Simplify Accurate State-of-Charge | DigiKey

Lots of links and info for bms from modules to component level.

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #33 – June 12, 2018, 02:17:10 am

It's true that there's no trivial plug-and-play alternator option. You can definitely turn on and off your alt with a BMS, though. You sound like you're up for the project!

In my coach, I retained the engine lead-acid batteries and the alt. I charge the house lithium pack off the solar/power pole/genset. The lithium pack feeds a small lead-acid charger that keeps the engine start batteries topped off when at rest. Really easy and works great. Also, easy to revert back to a standard (boring) all-lead-acid config if the next owner doesn't want my custom electrical setup. (But I bet they will, because I can run the roof airs for days before I have to start the generator... whoohoo!)

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #34 – June 12, 2018, 09:13:40 am

The 12V, 2200 CCA engine lead-acid battery does three things:

- Starts the engine
- Starts the generator (I rewired my coach)
- Backup for the house 12 volt appliances

When I found these 400AH lithiums at 70% off, my brain creaked and fired off another project: the "Get rid of the Lead' project. The devil is in the details. Current generation of alternators, regulators and Lithiums are not compatible. Lithium batteries, as well as lead-acid for that matter, require a computer to calculate and store SOC (State of Charge) in memory. SOC can then be managed over a consistent time period. Alternators provide intermittent charge with no SOC management. That said, my main concern is about storage SOC:

MY SOC REQUIREMENT
- Lead acid: 100% SOC in "Storage Mode"
- Lithium: 50% SOC in "Storage Mode"
- No overcharging of any cell

There are no alternator chargers or commercial chargers that meet the lithium requirement except the iCharger 4010. Even this charger does not know SOC, but it knows charge and discharge current. I will experiment with it's "Storage Charge" mode to determine the SOC when it completes it's Storage Mode.

The problem is that charger manufacturers got away with over-charging lead-acid batteries for the last 150 years. Lithiums cannot tolerate over-charging and will degrade if stored at 100% SOC. This mind set is hard to change, bit still prevails, even at cutting-edge companies like Victron, Magnum and Morningstar. Their algorithms charge to 100%. This is not good for storing lithium batteries.

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #35 – June 14, 2018, 06:15:21 am

By the way, the Nissan Leaf has a charge feature where the battery can be charged to 80% SOC. This is the first intelligent charger that actually makes sense.

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #36 – June 14, 2018, 09:53:39 am

[/quote]

Quote from: nebster – June 12, 2018, 02:17:10 am

It's true that there's no trivial plug-and-play alternator option. You can definitely turn on and off your alt with a BMS, though. You sound like you're up for the project!

In my coach, I retained the engine lead-acid batteries and the alt. I charge the house lithium pack off the solar/power pole/genset. The lithium pack feeds a small lead-acid charger that keeps the engine start batteries topped off when at rest. Really easy and works great. Also, easy to revert back to a standard (boring) all-lead-acid config if the next owner doesn't want my custom electrical setup. (But I bet they will, because I can run the roof airs for days before I have to start the generator... whoohoo!)

Love to hear about your coach and your setup, running roof airs for days is very impressive.

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #37 – June 14, 2018, 11:23:09 am

Quote from: Tim – June 14, 2018, 06:15:21 am

By the way, the Nissan Leaf has a charge feature where the battery can be charged to 80% SOC. This is the first intelligent charger that actually makes sense.

I've followed electric vehicles for over 40 years since being a northern California VW dealer selling the Citicar in 1977. I've owned more than several Toyota Prius vehicles last year and have to say, this is the best vehicle I've owned including those that cost over $70,000 to me new. All the German VW people transporters at German airports were all electric in the 70's. VW has done so much research, always saying their limiting technology was the batteries. Toyota has a new battery system supposedly coming out in 2020. I see another Prius in my future after I get more miles under my belt in the Foretravel. I have enjoyed following this electric thread. My budget and needs now include a simple 560 watt system with 2 8D AGM's and a new Xantrex Freedom SW 2012 Inverter/Charger. A thank you out to Dan AC7880 who sold me his core batteries when he updated to his new batteries.

Citicar - Wikipedia

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #38 – September 07, 2018, 10:33:22 am

The 400 amp hour lithium engine battery pack is installed and functioning. Starts the engine in one second. Here are some photos of the project. I have disconnected the alternator and am charging the batteries using a 115VAC to 12VDC IOTA supply powered by shore, genny or solar power. This powers the truely intelligent charger, iCharger model 4010 Duo.

Here are some salient points:

- Mounted inside coach for thermal regulation
- Intelligent, simple, no-hype LIFEPO4 charger that I can actually manage the batteries in terms of charge, storage and measuring Amp Hour capacity
- Found out the batteries are eight years old and still have their original capacity. They were new old stock for $550.
- The load on the batteries is 56mA with the battery disconnect switch off, 12A under daylight driving, 24A with the lights on and 37A with the defroster on full.
- Still have to do some carpentry to cover the system and make it look nice for the wife.
- Backup power: See photo for a schematic of my proposed silicon and schottky diode-based house 12 V house power system back up using this battery pack. This eliminates the need for a boost / backup power switch and battery isolator. This needs to be built and installed.

I am still trying to figure out how to make the alternator charge the battery without damaging it but have been unable to find a cost-effective and simple method. Stay tuned.

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #39 – September 07, 2018, 03:40:53 pm

Why not leave the alternator working charging the start battery bank coach starting, engine, lights & dash loads. Separate system drains, keep a Trik L Start, eliminate isolator or remove house battery cable from isolator.

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #40 – September 07, 2018, 04:05:45 pm

Out of that battery pack you got 400ah? ONLY ,

Using it 4 the start? What about the house batter how much ah?

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #41 – September 08, 2018, 03:02:19 pm

Quote from: Tim – September 07, 2018, 10:33:22 am

I am still trying to figure out how to make the alternator charge the battery without damaging it but have been unable to find a cost-effective and simple method. Stay tuned.

I read through this thread for the first time today, and though I don't fully follow the purpose of your project, I do have a simple and cost-effective method to have the alternator charge your battery while driving down the road.

Hook the alternator up to small lead acid battery (a lawn tractor battery would be good) and then use that to power the ICharger 4010Duo (input 9-50 VDC).

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #42 – September 08, 2018, 10:36:50 pm

The purpose is a technology proof-of-concept. To have a deep cycle, maintenance-free, efficient, light weight, dual power source ( Engine and House backup) that will last 20 years. By the way, alternators are only about 25% efficient, vs 80% using this new setup. That said, this technology has been around for over 10 years, is well understood, and should be viable for the next 20 years.

There are two possibilities:

1. BMS Method
Use a small lead 7AH AGM battery as a buffer. Then charge the 400AH directly, using the Orion BMS as the charge controller.

The alternator output line could be disconnected with a relay to shut off charge. The little AGM battery would remain connected to smooth out voltage and current. This little AGM is good for 70 A peak for 10 seconds.

This would be a fully automatic solution.

2. i Charger Method
Use a small lead 7AH AGM battery and alternator as a buffer and power source for the iCharger. . Then charge the 400AH LIFEPO4 using the iCharger as the charge controller. The iCharger power source could be fed either from the IOTA 14 Volt source or the alternator using simple diode switches.

Questions:
1. Which method is better?
2. Would the sudden change of current damage the alternator diodes or voltage regulator?
Switching a relay could cause the alternator output current to change from 30 amps to 1 amp in 20 miliseconds. That said, turning the incandescent headlights on the rig causes at least 100 A of inrush current and the alternator seems to be fine with that.
3. Could this modification make for a one-of-a-kind, unmaintainable white elephant? Let me answer my own question: Yes. I am concerned about this. Who would want a 1997 U270 with with full lithium technology?

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #43 – September 09, 2018, 07:47:18 am

Not sure if this will help you to achieve your goals but might be worth investigating:
LiFePO4 Battery Isolation Manager - Battle Born Batteries

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #44 – September 09, 2018, 10:33:53 am

RV Lithium/AGM Battery & Electrical System Upgrade - Part 1 - Intro

watch the series.. nice battery by Xantrex.. couldnt find costs but in the series they do tackle charging of the lithium and the agm separately

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #45 – September 15, 2018, 12:49:19 pm

Does anyone have experience with what might happen if the U270 alternator charged a small 7AH AGM battery? A possible way to charge the 400AH LIFEPO4 battery with the alternator is to connect the alternator to a small AGM battery, then charge the lithium battery with the intelligent charger (iCharger 4010 Duo). These questions arise:

1. Too much current for the battery?
These small batteries are only supposed to be charged at 2 Amps max. Would the regulator handle that?
2. Too little current for the alternator?
Could the lack of a big battery cause the diodes to burn out?
Would the voltage regulator prevent this?
3. Too much three-phase ripple on the battery terminals?
Especially if I put a 30 Amp load on this small battery.
4. What if I connect a huge capacitor (5 Farads) in parallel with the small battery.
Would it smooth the ripple? Would the regulator be able to control the voltage properly?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #46 – September 15, 2018, 03:50:15 pm

LiFePO4 Battery Isolation Manager - Battle Born Batteries

With that help? That series I posted has some info that might or might not help

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #47 – September 15, 2018, 09:45:31 pm

That did not help. I need a device that prevents:

1. Alternator charge overcurrent, user settable current control.
This would prevent high alternator belt load and temperature.

2. Alternator damage (no sudden disconnects) using it's voltage feedback input. I currently don't have access to the field input.
This may require a surrogate battery to act as the alternator load / voltage smoothing device.

3. Battery damage. Needs a BMS "battery full" input.

I have reviewed Victron's offerings including their Buck Boost box. Does not do everything I need and costs a lot.

Re: Advice on permanent alternator removal

Reply #48 – September 15, 2018, 10:52:53 pm

I have no idea what you are doing , but I often charge small batteries with large systems through a series of bulbs . They limit the total current .

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