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Topic: GFCI Circuit Breaker (Read 1145 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker

Reply #25 –
Quote from: jcus –
Does a GFCI receptacle provide overcurrent protection? - Home Improvement...
Think this answers it: GFI's, except when in distribution panel do not offer overcurrent protection.

Correct...........GFCI breakers offer branch circuit over current protection, GFCI receptacles do not.
 
Justin & Cathy Byrd
1995 U280 "Old Faithful"
36' Build #4673
C8.3 Cummins
Allison MD3060R 6 speed - retarder
Powertech 10KW  4cyl Kubota

Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker

Reply #26 –
Quote from: kb0zke –
A gfi outlet protects all outlets downstream from it. On my coach the gfi outlet is in the bathroom (the only outlet there). The kitchen outlets, basement outlets, and outside outlet are all protected by that one gfi. I had to replace it recently, and the new outlet came with a sheet of stickers to put on each protected outlet. I have one of those testers that Rich mentioned. After the new outlet was installed and tested, I had Jo Ann stay by the outlet while I went around tripping it with the tester. Each outlet that tripped got a sticker.

GFI breakers are usually marked in some way to indicate that they are GFI. Might be a different color handle or GFI on the handle.

As the name implies, Ground Fault Interrupter, they are designed to trip whenever there is any current flowing from hot to ground. They do require a ground to work. In fact, earlier this year I was with a guy who tried to put one in on an old, two-wire system (no ground). After figuring out which dirty wire was the hot and which was the neutral, then getting enough wire out of the box so he could actually attach it out in the open, then convincing everything to go back into the too-small box, it wouldn't work. The little elves inside the GFI noticed that there was no ground wire and wouldn't let any current pass. Smart little critters.
When I remodeled my bathroom in my old 2 wire no ground house, code required me to install gfi receptacles that did not require a ground.

Will a GFCI receptacle that is not grounded still function properly?
Jim C.
coachfree, previous 1997, 1999, 2000, and 2003 Foretravels.

Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker

Reply #27 –
So they can function on a hot/ nuetral inbalance with no ground? Darn spell checker.
Old Phart Phred, EIEIO
89 GV ored 36' #3405 300 hp cat 3208 ATAAC side radiator, mountain tamer exhaust brake

Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker

Reply #28 –
Quote from: Old phart phred –
So they can function on a hot/ nuetral inbalance with no ground? Darn spell checker.
The electrician that signed off on my bath renovation, [had to pull a permit] said it only looks at current through neutral, and through hot, and if a difference will trip. He said if my body diverts any current from either wire, it will trip, hopefully saving me from a bad shock or worse. and a ground is not necessary for it to work.
Jim C.
coachfree, previous 1997, 1999, 2000, and 2003 Foretravels.

Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker

Reply #29 –
Dub,
Maybe a previous owner got tired of the GFCI tripping and replaced it with a regular duplex outlet (should be 20 amp rated).  Doing that would lose the GFCI feature, but the circuit should still be overload protected by a 20 amp breaker in the inverter fed sub panel.  If you want GFCI protection just replace the bath sink outlet with a 20 amp rated GFCI duplex outlet.  The primary purpose of a breaker is to protect the wiring (prevent an overload causing the wire to get hot and starting a fire).  The wiring and breaker should be sized accordingly.  On my coach the outlets in the bedroom do not have GFCI.
Jerry Whiteaker former owner 96 U270  36' #4831 Austin,TX-Owner Mods LCD TV w/front cabinet rebuild - LCD TV bedroom - Dual Central AC, either can cool coach w 30 amp - Skylights at roof AC openings - Drop ceiling for ducting of AC - Shower skylight white gelcoat/wood/epoxy frame - Air Springs/Shocks replaced - 2014 CRV - 8K Home Solar - Chevy Volt

Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker

Reply #30 –
Huh did not know that,  a few of things I don't know/fully understand in the ac electrical world. Can't possibly know it all. So I ask questions. Power factor corrections are somewhat Greek to me.
Old Phart Phred, EIEIO
89 GV ored 36' #3405 300 hp cat 3208 ATAAC side radiator, mountain tamer exhaust brake

Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker

Reply #31 –
I found that a receptacle had been removed and not replaced on the bedroom side of the wall that separates the bed and bath down low just a few inches from the floor,which may have been where it was located originally, I have to go in there and be sure of the state of the wire ends anyway and will install a GFI in that location.. I learned from the replies and appreciate them.
Dub McBride 1996 270

Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker

Reply #32 –
I believe that Foretravel SAVED MONEY by installed one GFCI receptacle in the bathroom with passed through wiring to five more duplex receptacles (stove, near kitchen sink, kitchen table, hutch, and passenger side front table). This way, 6 duplex receptacles are GFCI protected with just one GFCI receptacle. To make trouble shooting easier, what would be wrong with replacing the five non-GFCI receptacles with five GFCI receptacles and rewiring at the bathroom GFCI receptacle to pass through power which is NOT GFCI protected.

I was not OK with having all kitchen receptacles on one breaker so ran another circuit to a new duplex receptacle below the kitchen counter top and added a new 20 amp breaker in the power panel under the bed.  This allows running a coffee maker, a toaster, and a blender simultaneously.
Wyatt
96 U320 40 WTFE, build 4943
84 Toyota Supra towd
2015 Jeep Wrangler towd
Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker

Reply #33 –
Quote
@ Dub: ................Maybe someone could give me just a clue.

I see a few misperceptions about GFCI outlets and Breakers in this thread, so a few comments:

    • There are GFCI OUTLETS that are motor rated and others are not.
    • There are GFCI BREAKERS that are motor rated and others are not.
    • The differences between breakers and outlet GFCI's leads to misinterpretations about GFCI overcurrent and GFCI age related trips.
    • GFCI OUTLETS are often mis-wired because DIY's don't follow the installation directions.  There are input terminals and there are output terminals (that protect downstream loads).See:
    • GFCI OUTLETS (properly wired) protect against ground currents (personal shock) at the outlet itself AND the downstream outlets, not just the downstream outlets as stated here in several places.
    • GFCI OUTLETS do not provide over-current protection.  They only provide hot to neutral imbalance protection, usually in the 5 to 10 milliamp imbalance (or greater) range.  Running two downstream loads simultaneously may case a GFCI OUTLET to trip, but that is a different issue....it is not an overcurrent trip.
    • Only GFCI BREAKERS, in your entrance panel and inverter power panel, provide simultaneous GFCI and overload protection.
    • Inexpensive GFCI's BREAKERS AND OUTLETS are prone to "nuisance" tripping for a whole host of reasons: For Example:
    • Ganged GFCI's (for example: in storage facilities that only have a GFCI OUTLET choice) and then you have a critical load (like an absorption refrigerator) plugged into another (ganged) GFCI OUTLET way downstream (but electrically, side by side, in parallel) in the coach.
    • Motor starts (washers, dryers, AC's, pumps, furnaces in particular)
    • Motor age and dielectric leakage paths that creep in with age.
    • GFCI OUTLETS do not have code-driven labelling standards (one has to test each outlet to know for sure).
    • Somewhere along I became aware that GFCI BREAKERS and OUTLETS work equally well on two and three wire (older wiring meets NEC code, without having to have a wired ground). (jcus provided a link that explains this nicely):
    • Better grade GFCI OUTLETS have an LED indicator whereby one can tell at a glance if it is tripped or not  (LED light on, not tripped........light off, tripped).
    • I feel that FT designed things right by using a GFCI OUTLET in the bathroom, where proximity to the sink affords the best protection and also allows ease of detection and reset if the GFCI has been tripped.  It would have been nice if FT had used more easily detected (TRIPPED) GFCI OUTLETS, but it is still better than having to lie on the floor at the foot of the bed to see whether a breaker panel mounted GFCI BREAKER has been tripped and needs to be reset.  But, in the ideal world, I also agree with Wyatt that too many loads and too much faith is placed on a single GFCI outlet in the bathroom.  Properly documented, it is better design to run several outlet wires independently off individual GFCI BREAKERS.  Also nothing wrong with rewiring to provide GFCI OUTLET protection at each outlet, using the bathroom GFCI to protect only itself and using each other GFCI OUTLET wired to protect only itself (parallel all line terminals).
    • Since GFCI useful lifetime is generally on the order of a half dozen years, it's a pretty safe bet that a used coach's GFCI is not OEM and may have been replaced by a standard OUTLET (contrary to code) or may have been mis-wired, your best bet is to thoroughly research the theory behind GFCI protection before you change out outlets willy-nilly, or have an electrician check it out for you, if not clearly resolved.
    [/list]

    HTH,
    Neal
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    Neal (& Brenda) Pillsbury
    '02 U320 SPEC, 4200, DGFE, Build #5984
    '04 Gold Wing
    '07 Featherlite 24'
    '14 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit
    MC #14494
    Exeter, NH & LaBelle FL
    Quality makes the Heart Soar long after Price is Forgotten

    Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker

    Reply #34 –
    Good description Neal.

    I add that most RV outlets are not resident-standard in that they are not in a box, don't use mounting screws, don't have separate covers and the wire connections are not bare wire inserted or under a screw. RVs are allowed an all-in-one outlet with daisy-chain insulation piercing connections.  So replacing them with standard outlets usually means routing out the cabinet, mounting a box and extending the existing Romex so it reaches to the new outlet connection, all a bit of work.