Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Topic: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help' (Read 3118 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #25 – October 01, 2018, 07:03:03 pm

Quote from: Ralph – October 01, 2018, 01:02:53 pm

Wow, that's some high priced injectors

Ralph
96 U270

I told him I would have done it for a 6 pack..LOL
Cummings NW, they are expensive. It was a full tuneup. You know, plugs, points, rotor, cap and condenser..LOL...They did some other work on it also.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #26 – October 01, 2018, 07:04:42 pm

You know, these are mechanical/electrical items that we put on US roads with bumps, holes, junk, and a bunch of other stuff. They suffer so that we can enjoy a lifestyle that most can only dream about. I have driven my coach in the rain...how to avoid it? I have overflowed my fresh water tank, too lazy to keep track of what I was doing. I've spent money to keep the ting on the road, had it diagnosed and repaired to the best of the ability of the mechanic dejure and my pocket book. We have so thoroughly enjoy these past 18 years and would never trade the travels for anything. Now it is time to hang it up and stay close to doctors and friends. I hope when one of you buys our coach you will treat it as well as we have and in another 22 years it will again be on the market having received appropriate care and repairs. Sorry if some of you have had les than stellar experiences with these wonderful means of following the greatest adventure we have ever been on. When someone finally buys out coach we will bid it a fond farewell and always look back with a tear in our eye and a song in our heart.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #27 – October 01, 2018, 07:17:31 pm

So many well said sediments.
If I could have my pick of any RV for free, it would be another Foretravel.
Been in, out, and under pretty much every brand out there, in 55 years in the RV industry. I rest my case
Chris

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #28 – October 01, 2018, 08:14:51 pm

You can call things you don't like or things you wish were different "design flaws" or try to claim that FT didn't care but neither of these are the case. Every thing is a design choice. Some choices are better than others but every choice comes as a balance between design criteria, use expectations, manufacturability and cost. Lots of things could have been done better but they are what they are. I can imagine up all sorts of improvements like a full sized drain pan in the wet bay that would catch any leaks or overflow and provide an outside drain, heated of course so it would be functional in all weather. Same with the fuel tank.

A bit of work but possible especially if the wet bay is empty anyway. In the meantime make all reasonable efforts to reduce risk. Every way to do this has been written up in the Forum. Oh and I went out and looked, my AquaHot has a through-the-floor vent and drain.

Is the pan under your home water heater big enough to hold the entire capacity of the hot water heater and the entire city water system? No. It has a drain line. You have to hope the drain line isn't kinked or the drain isn't plugged up. Because it doesn't have an infinite capacity is that a design flaw? Did the designer just not care? If you have no drain pan then who are you going to blame if there is a leak?

Any coach you buy, any brand, any age will come with problems. Every one will require remedial action or repairs or a work-around. Some coaches will have more of this than others. The more you know about your coach before you buy the more likely you will be to choose a better starting point. Some coaches take a lot more work and money to bring them back up to where you want them to be. This is not a short term adventure. Invest up front and get the rewards for 10 or 20 years going forward. The return on the investment is the adventure and enjoyment of use and the people you meet. When you are done using it you can sell it and get some cash back and start someone else off on an adventure of their own.

Yes, it takes some resources to partake in this lifestyle at this level but it also takes a realistic understanding and acceptance of risk and a budget for time and money going forward for several years. I hope Jerry's hill climb here flattens out and better days are ahead for him. His is not the only rough patch as many of us have worked through them as well.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #29 – October 01, 2018, 10:54:06 pm

Chris I agree but a 91-92 marquis would be a close second. Not a unihome. Gillig frame. But no factory

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #30 – October 01, 2018, 11:22:10 pm

My coach is 29 years old, still mostly looks good, except for sagging headliner in spots, poorly done roof coating by a fly by night, window treatments and carpet are shot. BUT it has good bones. Still needs some to have a modernized inverter system. Solar panels on roof installed by FOC still show a voltage, but appear to be loooong past prime, and the charge controller (simple diode) is toast. That being said it beats anything i have seen at the local RV joints and shows and always exit grinning. BUT i have never been in a tiffen, country coach, or bus conversion.
However the undercarriage steel installed on my ORED at Foretravel is highly substandard in the protective coatings department in terms of prep work, quality of coating, or execution. There are very few traces of any coatings left. They could have done better with a paint brush. Good news is my coach spent most of it's life in socal, and the steel is 1/8" thick or more. So come winter i Hope to wire brush it, and brush on something better.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #31 – October 02, 2018, 12:05:41 am

Oh by the way my coach front end tends to porpose over bumps, it's an Oshkosh chassis thing because the shocks (dampners) don't stroke enough to be effective due to their angle on the swing arm. Can't dampen if you don't stroke. No brainer, extend the effective swing arm length with a piece of angle iron and a new lower shock mount to make shock more vertical, and double, triple, or quadruple the stroke length. $200 mod. If you can't fabricate or weld, $50 if you can

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #32 – October 02, 2018, 12:19:25 am

Your front springs may be suffering from metal fatigue. Ours were until we replaced them ($1,700 for springs & labor).
I have part numbers and source. See attached.
Also have disc brake pads and rotor info if you need.
Unfortunately FOT and Oshkosh Truck did not include any of this information. The rear disc brakes are the first ones to go because they do almost all the braking because of the engine weight in the rear.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #33 – October 02, 2018, 12:44:05 am

Roger E,
My homes hot water heater is in it's own alcove mounted on a wooden plinth above a concrete floor in the garage. It was not mounted above our ceiling or the electric breaker panel. This was done for a reason. Which was to prevent a hot water failure from shorting out the electric panel or flooding our home. HMMM! imagine that.

So why would it be unreasonable of me to think that a top end coach builder should be concerned about the number one killer of RV's "water" Especially when that water is directly above an untreated steel structural system. Color me confused.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #34 – October 02, 2018, 01:59:31 am

Phred Oshkosh double polyurethane coated the entire chassis in gloss black.

Shiny black complete undercarriage and cat bright yellow were great personal bragging points for me to sell and the owners to show off to their buddies.

As far as Foretravel steel they did paint everything new.

C.M. Fore's grandfather used to build high quality horse drawn wagons in Nac.

The family were strict church of the Nazarene attendees.

They were square Texas folks who really tried to do things the best way possible.

As far as long term issues the Fore family must have been really stupid as they were among the only companies building rv's that owned their own sales stores and the only one that bought back their own products for resale.

My original personal sales manager trade in limit was $75k ACV in deals without needing any approval. After I had more experience that was raised to $150k real money. 1988....

Bought lots of really old Foretravels and refit them to new like a lot here have done.

If anyone here thinks Foretravel did a poor job you would be severely irritated if you owned a SOB that is half the age of most here.

Read chris's comments closely. He knows as do I and red tractor how much the Fore's really tried to do these right.

I bought our coach KNOWING it probably would take $30k over time to rebuild the coaches systems. No paint

Out Coaches brakes would not release on the demo ride. Coach was a dog power wise. Loud banging noise from mid coach. Giant snakes in the windows. Faded. Flooded cell batteries. Laughed out loud. Richard and Betty had bought it this way. Not on them at all.

Frankly I was grateful to have run across this coach. Most would walk. But everything was fixable for a large application of my cash. And we are not rich. Po folks.

But always said we would own a Foretravel "someday"

But a fixable 97 u320 mid door was not replaceable. Not a front door fan.

Roll the dice. Dig deep to pay.

I still have a grin driving the coach that's hard to wipe off of my face. Ultimate driving machine rv.

Bought two 10 year old top of the line low mile Lexus's in the last year. Same built like a tank engineering.

Just upgrade the electronics and fix the well known issues with them

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #35 – October 02, 2018, 02:08:49 am

Bigdog i agree with the poorly coated steel, your water heater thing shows little standard of care. JMO.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #36 – October 02, 2018, 02:51:08 am

Quote from: Old phart phred – October 01, 2018, 11:22:10 pm

However the undercarriage steel installed on my ORED at Foretravel is highly substandard in the protective coatings department in terms of prep work, quality of coating, or execution. There are very few traces of any coatings left. They could have done better with a paint brush. Good news is my coach spent most of it's life in socal, and the steel is 1/8" thick or more. So come winter i Hope to wire brush it, and brush on something better.

I can exert myself, and slap on some good stuff for sure. Just an honest observation, those with bulkheads may agree or disagree. Love my kiss coach.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #37 – October 02, 2018, 07:42:06 am

Jerry, don't get me wrong here, I am not arguing with you and sympathize with the anguish you feel. 20 years ago what was going on in the designer's heads is unknown. But my guess is that after almost 40 years of building coaches the approach to dealing with water leaks inside the coach was to use the most reliable plumbing system possible. Thus we have a central distribution hub (Manibloc) and PEX tubing with all fittings done the way they were supposed to be done at that time which is just about the same as it is today. They spent their time, energy and money making the water system as reliable as possible. Will there be internal water leaks? Probably in a few coaches. A small number compared to the total. And as coaches get to 20 years old maybe more.

The tank overflow in outside of the bays and drains down the rear bulkhead. Not the best place, a longer tube would be nice but then there is the issue of keeping bugs and other things out of the tank. I don't want to have to replace my fresh water tank because there is a dead mouse floating in it.

Fill valves fail, the tank level sensors fail, almost all of us have overfilled the fresh tank a few times and become more attentive to it of figure out a way to minimize the chances of it happening and extend the overflow hose in case it does.

Everyone of us is waiting for the next thing to fail because we know something will. Our preventative measures may reduce risk. Our adaptations may reduce risk. What we do often reduces the potential impact of a failure. Be as prepared as you can be. When something happens don't panic, figure it out, fix it, move on.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #38 – October 02, 2018, 08:28:49 am

Ugh! Dead mouse in the fresh water? I shudder just thinking about that. Our overflow has a piece of aluminum screen, hose clamped on the end of the hose. And the end of the hose is fastened to a wall strut with the hose/screen end about 4" past the strut in open space. I did that.
Phred, our black frame coating is still like new. Maybe because it never saw salt until we bought it, and then only once when I drove it home from getting the fuel system unplugged.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #39 – October 02, 2018, 11:51:19 am

Several of us have re-routed the overflow hose to eliminate the wheel well issue.
Here's what I did: Another slow water leak
Easy project. I intentionally overfill once in a while to keep the overflow tube washed.
Good Luck, Dave A

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #40 – October 02, 2018, 11:55:18 am

Dave, another way to check the fresh water tank level gage.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #41 – October 02, 2018, 02:00:06 pm

Quote from: Dave and Nancy Abel – October 02, 2018, 11:51:19 am

Several of us have re-routed the overflow hose to eliminate the wheel well issue.
Here's what I did: Another slow water leak
Easy project. I intentionally overfill once in a while to keep the overflow tube washed.
Good Luck, Dave A

Very nice. Thanks for the idea
Chris

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #42 – October 02, 2018, 04:07:48 pm

Guess I don't understand the big concern over the overflow location. Ours is in front of the passenger side duals like some have mentioned. Yes water runs down the outside of the bulkhead when (seldom) I let the freshwater overfill.
This same area gets soaked every time I drive in the rain. What's the difference?

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #43 – October 02, 2018, 04:23:04 pm

As a retired design engineer, I believe "design flaws" in one person's mind might well be design trade-offs in the mind of the designer. Engineering is all about trade offs.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #44 – October 02, 2018, 04:28:33 pm

All engineers and companies are not created equal. So, what do you call someone who graduated deal last in medical school? ..................Doctor.

Pierce

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #45 – October 02, 2018, 05:08:12 pm

The Ford Pinto – The American Museum of Tort Law

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #46 – October 02, 2018, 05:15:11 pm

Quote from: jcus – October 02, 2018, 05:08:12 pm

The Ford Pinto – The American Museum of Tort Law

Just a few more

volkswagen beetle fires - Google Search

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #47 – October 02, 2018, 06:15:07 pm

"All engineers and companies are not created equal. So, what do you call someone who graduated deal last in medical school? ..................Doctor."

He or she graduated medical school. That is a long way from internship and residency and passing the medical licensing test. They may be one of the best doctors today.

I know a lot of lousy engineers and some very good ones too. The basic role of an engineer of any type is to solve problems and every solution has a wide range of cost attributes. Several solutions are often presented just as a doctor might present you with several treatment options. All have pluses and minuses depending on where you place your focus. The design engineer can make his or her case for their preferred solution but they are rarely the final say in the end.

Hindsight is always easy. What it is is not going to change because you think it could have been done better. What can change is how you deal with what you have, find solutions to problems you see now as they are ... improvements, adaptations and behavior modifications. Look forward to a better solution for you with what you have. Looking backwards and worrying about what might have been uses too much energy better spent elsewhere.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #48 – October 02, 2018, 06:59:47 pm

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – October 02, 2018, 06:15:07 pm

"All engineers and companies are not created equal. So, what do you call someone who graduated deal last in medical school? ..................Doctor."
He or she graduated medical school. That is a long way from internship and residency and passing the medical licensing test. They may be one of the best doctors today.

My son was valedictorian of his medical school class, chief resident, and now a very top doctor. I see all the time what the "bottom dwellers" do in their practice if they make it that far. Yes, there are exceptions but few and far between. Many are the Doctors who prescribe the "pain medicine" that is responsible for all the misery and ruined lives in every city in America today.

Quote from a John Hopkins study: Analyzing medical death rate data over an eight-year period, Johns Hopkins patient safety experts have calculated that more than 250,000 deaths per year are due to medical error in the U.S.

Before any surgery, minor or major, check the rating of the hospital you will be having the procedure done in and also vet the doctor very carefully. Almost all have a good bedside manner but...

Pierce

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #49 – October 02, 2018, 07:53:36 pm

I think we all need a group hug here!!!!!

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