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Topic: Hard start!! (Read 5105 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #40 –
Quote from: Old Toolmaker –

You can replace the cable ends if you want to spend the money on the crimping tool for that size cable. 

Assuming you are able to cut away the insulation and are able to get to clean shiny copper, not copper oxide.

Check the other end as well.

But, smart $$ is to replace it.

Check ground cable as well.

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #41 –
You have invested time and money in a new starter.  Reusing old cables that are probably worn our or damaged is not a good idea.  Alan at Bay Marine Supply will make any size tinned marine grade cable with any lugs you need for a fair price and send them to you pretty quickly.  Buying a crimper, lugs and cable to do it yourself works if you are making a lot of cables.  Otherwise check with a farm tractor (John Deer or like that) dealer.  They almost always can make cables to order.  Never cheap.

 

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #42 –
I've always used large welding cables to replace OEM cables that were damaged or too small for the job. Welding cables are more flexible as they need to move with the welding application. They do have many times the copper strands that automotive cables do and may need to be supported if traveling long distances where they hang down. Good practice is to make up an extra ground cable from the battery to the closest frame member. Not a bad idea to make another from the frame to the engine or transmission to insure a good electrical path. Poor grounds are responsible for more than dim headlights.

Copper lugs may be crimped on or soldered. While we have a crimping tool at the shop (hammer type), I usually solder (electrical solder) them on at home with either a propane/mapp gas torch or with welding torch. If you slide shrink tubing down the cable first, you can slide it back over the new lug, heat it and a moisture proof seal is made. Shrink tubing comes in different colors so you can buy red for the positive. Either way works quickly and securely.

When I turn the key, our engine instantly spins like a top. I remember a factory Gates tensioner video where they went to start the big diesel after installing the new tensioner. It slowly hesitated before bringing the starter revs up to speed. No adequate starting system should do this.

Anyone remember the aluminum cables GM used on a couple of years on Corvettes? What a terrible idea.

Pierce

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #43 –
Looks as though your cable end was the problem. Starter bin on awhile also. You have the new starter and a good match would be new cables. Your local welding shop may actually be able to crimp properly. Shrink tubing with the inside glue has been a favorite of mine for years and you can get red or black. Keeps the air, moisture, corrosion under control. I do solder some but a strain relief need to be installed to prevent breakage were soldered. 
Scott

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #44 –
I would recommend using marine cabling.  UL1427.  Welding may or may not have a pvc compound cover on it.  Battery cabling uses rubber.

Why the difference?  Rubber melts off and leaves bare metal.

PVC turns to ash and stays on the wire preventing shorting to adjoining cables.

All boats are required to use UL 1427 cabling as far as I am aware.

Just safety,...

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #45 –
The starter is out! The top bolt ended up being the easiest. I am confident in saying this is the original starter and it seems the installer used an impact with little regard to not cross threading one of the lower bolts!!

I also was able to remove the positive cable. I do think it a welding type cable. It has a mid cable eyelet, should I keep that design or can two cables be used? I will need new terminal connectors (lugs) being both positive and negative bolts sheered when I tried to remove them.

As far as the new starter, is there something I am overlooking when it comes to the end connection inlet? The old starter does not have this and I am not sure if it should be sealed and ignored or if there is something else I need to add.

As always, your time and knowledge is appreciated!
Tom

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #46 –
Change all of the cables. Clean those mulit point connections .

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #47 –
So you have/will come across the same problem with your coach in regards to corrosion. You will need to learn how to remove corroded fasteners. Brute force will always break fasteners. Open end wrenches are not to be used till it's loose. Good tools are a must. Learn to slow down and size sockets to fit tight. This means that they may reduce in size corroding. Metric can be used. Okay to tap sockets on with hammer. Six point sockets on six point fasteners. Valve grinding compounds will help lock tool and part together to prevent slipping. Get your propane torch (and using safeguards) heat fasteners and cool with Aero-Kroil or mouse milk. They are both expensive but well worth it. IMO.Reattempt removal and repeat heat cool cycles till it releases. A variety of impact tools will greatly assist. Cordless 1/2 impacters IMO are difficult to regulate. 1/2 air is more user friendly. Pre soak days before with either. The mouse milk is my preferred fluid. Splitting nuts will also sometimes be required. Sometimes attempting to tighten the fastener helps. Also since you live in a very humid area using anti-seize is a must. Get in the habit using on everything in the elements. Striking the head of the fastener with hammer and or punch helps wake it up. Any one thing may work but may require all the above in multiple  cycles till it comes loose or fails. Clean removed threads with tap and die set, wirewheel. All good fun. Well maybe not.
Scott

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #48 –
Read the instructions that came with that starter to locate where the cables are attached. If you don't have them PM me and I will get mine out of the coach and read it to you.

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #49 –
Have you cut off the ends and pealed backed the insulation on your cable. If the wire is nice and shiny it's OK to reuse it. Someone
mention using marine cable and one of the advantages the marine cable is usually tinned and that stops the corrosion. As dsd said
anti or never seize is a must.

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #50 –
After reading this thread, I got to thinking that my starter was pretty anemic, and I usually use the boost switch to give a little more juice. So I cleaned and sanded down all the battery terminals until I had nice clean cooper and then went to the other end and took the terminals off the starter to clean them and noticed that the positive stud on the starter was really lose and would wiggle side to side easily.  Tightened up the nut on the stud and then cleaned and reinstalled wire onto positive starter stud and tightened down the nut that holds the terminal and then went back to the battery and reinstalled all the battery terminals.  Tested it out and now it spins like a top without boost switch.  So make sure to check the positive stud on starter is tight, and if not tighten the nut that holds the stud tight. Thanks to everyone in the forum.

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #51 –
That's why the boost switch is such a crutch, masking problems in the primary starting system. Big rigs don't have a second set of batteries.

Pierce

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #52 –
Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart –
That's why the boost switch is such a crutch, masking problems in the primary starting system. Big rigs don't have a second set of batteries.

Pierce

But we do, so why not use it? 
I've got reasonably new starting batteries and my system works fine on them alone,  but I figure it's less strain on them if I include the house batteries when cranking.  Every tenth time I don't use the boost switch,  just for reassurance.

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #53 –
Quote from: Travelin' Man –
But we do, so why not use it? 
I've got reasonably new starting batteries and my system works fine on them alone,  but I figure it's less strain on them if I include the house batteries when cranking.  Every tenth time I don't use the boost switch,  just for reassurance.

I don't think there is any strain on the starting batteries whether you use the boost switch or not. I never do and the last batteries lasted over 10 years with one having low voltage. Car batteries last the same with no backup. Why do you think it strains them?  That's their job. I have three 31 series start batteries that are 1000 CCA more than I need. If I used the boost switch and added the 6 house batteries, the start batteries would not last a day longer in my opinion.

If the boost switch had not been used in the case above, the starter problem would have been found a lot earlier. Imagine the starter totally failing in a remote winter location and when the boost switch was used, it still would not start.

When the CCA matches the engine requirement, any problems starting require a repair, not covering it up by jamming more CCA at it. If I used the boost switch, I would have never found that one of my start batteries was low on voltage.

Pierce

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #54 –
We hooked up our blue sea auto combiner auto disconnect for the banks when the engine start relay is energized.

Other wise, as posted, always connecting the banks can mask battery problems

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #55 –
Thanks guys.

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #56 –
I see both sides of this "use/don't use the boost switch for starting the engine":

Don't use it because it will mask issues with starting batteries and/or battery cables and connections.

Do use it to provide more amps/less voltage drop to the starter.

So, let me offer a "compromise":

Use boost switch for most starts.

Once a month/every 10 starts or so, start without boost switch to prove all is working as it should.

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #57 –
I'll keep doing it that way Brett.

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #58 –
Update>>>

The coach is purring like a kitten again!  Today I finalized the connection points to the battery bank and torqued all of the bolts to spec. With fingers crossed I went up front and turned the key. With 3 cranks of the motor she took off like she is supposed to!!

I did get nervous because after running just a few minutes the motor died.  Being cautious not to turn it over to much, I made a few attempts to restart the coach and it failed. Knowing it was likely a fuel issue I opened the back and stared at the motor and then decided to try one more time to start her. SUCCESS, I guess my stare down worked!!

Thank you to all that took the time to read my hassle and to those that lent a helping hand!!  Time to chase another gremlin!!

Re: Hard start!!

Reply #59 –
Can you summarize the solution? s.