House battery question

Topic: House battery question (Read 2470 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: House battery question

Reply #25 – September 22, 2020, 12:46:43 pm

Chuck,

Watch the economy. When it goes further south, the price of the batteries will come way down along with other stuff. Bad time to buy a house.

Our AGMs are 12 years old and seem to be working fine but there will be a time when they don't. I can leave the new inverter on a long time without dropping the voltage while it's at idle.

Musk's big mass production factory is set to open in 2021 and expect the prices will drop then.

Pierce

Re: House battery question

Reply #26 – September 22, 2020, 01:17:50 pm

Quote from: craneman – September 22, 2020, 12:07:19 pm

The lithium have been out long enough to at least drop down some.

I *think* the lithium prices are staying high because the technology is improving so darn fast, it requires continuous investment in new manufacturing machinery.

Re: House battery question

Reply #27 – September 22, 2020, 02:02:28 pm

Gels in my mind are a plus in value if you sell the coach. I personally would deduct from any potential buy the cost to replace non oem grade equipment installed in the coach.

Minus for non Michelin tires. Non gel batteries.

In my coach selling days the idea that a prospective buyer looks at something non oem and shakes his or her head cost way more than the cost of the oem parts.

Just me. Sold hundreds of coaches.

Windshield glass. Wiper blades. Strong water pressure. Tested verifiable batteries. Weight slip. Tires set to match the weight.

Re: House battery question

Reply #28 – September 22, 2020, 02:19:11 pm

A plus for AGM over GELs and a big plus for non-Michelin coaches unless you want to collect from your insurance company.

BatteryStuff Articles | Compare and Contrast Between AGM and Gel Batteries

Pierce

Re: House battery question

Reply #29 – September 22, 2020, 02:22:06 pm

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – September 22, 2020, 01:17:50 pm

I *think* the lithium prices are staying high because the technology is improving so darn fast, it requires continuous investment in new manufacturing machinery.

Look at David S. post on his 1200 amps lithium battery bank. If he can put one together with batteries costing $4,600.00 you would think mass producing would be less than $11,000 for the same amps that it would cost to buy from the current lithium sellers.

Re: House battery question

Reply #30 – September 22, 2020, 02:23:43 pm

Agm's require temp controlled charging and need a full recharge each cycle. Cannot be equalized to restore capacity loss from short cycling. Other than lifelines.

1/2 the cycle life of gels normally

Re: House battery question

Reply #31 – September 22, 2020, 05:06:31 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – September 22, 2020, 02:23:43 pm

Agm's require temp controlled charging and need a full recharge each cycle. Cannot be equalized to restore capacity loss from short cycling. Other than lifelines.

1/2 the cycle life of gels normally

Come on. Our 6 Genisis XE70-0771-6001 12 Volt 68 a mp hour batteries Genesis XE70-0771-6001 12 Volt 68 Amp Hour Battery are fine at 12 years and the manufactures states, "DO NOT EQUALIZE." A GEL battery would have to last more than 24 years in your above post. I either leave the solar on to charge or just plug into shore power to charge them. Regular battery charger, nothing special. I even use a jumper to keep the house and engine batteries at the same voltage. AGM and conventional Duralast 31 series maintenance free start batteries. Year after year, they keep on ticking.

And they were in a bankruptcy sales for $35 instead of $425 so the cost was $210 for all six. Craigslist has the deals if you just watch it. And who is retired that does not have the time to watch the listing? I only had to drive 60 miles to Sacramento to pick them up.

Pierce

Re: House battery question

Reply #32 – September 22, 2020, 05:13:49 pm

20 years ago GEL batteries had an edge in cycle count over AGMs. No longer for the better AGMs. In order to maintain full capacity AGMs and GELS should be recharged to 100% SOC every cycle. 20 year old information and thinking locks you into the relative dark ages. Do your own homework, learn for yourself.

LiFePO4 batteries are an option to consider. If you have 3 new 8D batteries and charge them to 100% at 20% or less of capacity and never (rarely) go below 75% SOC you will maintain capacity and get about 2100 cycles out of the upper end lines of batteries. They might cost $2,000. Maybe more. 25% of approx 720 amp hr capacity Is 180 amp hrs per day. At 12.5 volts that is about 2250 watts per day, plenty for many LP gas refrigerator users.

If you have 4 Battle Born 100 amp hr batteries with 10 year warranties that 180 amp hrs per day would leave you with 55% SOC. And if you recharge them at 20% of total capacity or less Battle Born expects these batteries to get 5,000 cycles. They consider a 100% to 0% to 100% one cycle. Using only 45% each day could get you over 11,000 days. For virtually all of us that means never buying batteries again. You might be able to do that with 2 BB batteries but your reserves would be small. Battle Born says a 100 amp battery at 0% SOC still has about 20 amp hrs left. They do this because they don't want you do completely deplete the battery, no one does.

Last year on Black Friday you could get Battle Borns for as low as $850. Part of the cost is a hazardous material shipping charge on each battery. If you buy six on a pallet, generally shipping will be free and there is only one hazardous material shipping add on. I bought my 6 GC2 BB at about 22% under retail delivered. Get together with someone else and get a pallet full.

It is just something to consider. 300-400 amp hrs of lithium is plenty for most. They are much easier to charge, SOC does not have to go back to 100% every time, cold weather issues (myths) are easy to overcome. Charge while driving is easily done in a smart way, assuming you ever have to. And they should outlast two sets of AGM batteries.

So $2700 - $3600 for LiFePO4 batteries that will outlast 2 sets of conventional batteries. Give it some thought.

Re: House battery question

Reply #33 – September 22, 2020, 05:24:03 pm

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – September 22, 2020, 05:13:49 pm

cold weather issues (myths) are easy to overcome.

Those who run a lithium battery in a motorcycle think differently. In the wintertime it's recommended practice to turn on the head light for 30 seconds before turning the engine. Turns out it's not only recommended, it's necessary.

Re: House battery question

Reply #34 – September 22, 2020, 05:39:17 pm

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – September 22, 2020, 05:13:49 pm

It is just something to consider. 300-400 amp hrs of lithium is plenty for most. They are much easier to charge, SOC does not have to go back to 100% every time, cold weather issues (myths) are easy to overcome. Charge while driving is easily done in a smart way, assuming you ever have to. And they should outlast two sets of AGM batteries.

So $2700 - $3600 for LiFePO4 batteries that will outlast 2 sets of conventional batteries. Give it some thought.

With 400 Ah for our AGMs, we never come close to flattening them. But are all LED including the TVs. The old Taytronics dropped the voltage just turning it on but the new tiny sine wave inverter keeps the voltage about the same at idle. A coach today should only use a fraction of what they did 20 years ago.

If you can't wait for a deal and dry camp most of the time, spending $3000 or so on lithiums is probably all you will ever need for the coach. If you have a newer model, it's a fairly small percentage of the total value. For our $20,000 coach, it would be 15% so I found another option. But always looking for a super deal that will make me go that direction.

Pierce

Re: House battery question

Reply #35 – September 22, 2020, 06:46:39 pm

If you upgrade to lithium, what other items need to be upgraded?? Inverter, control, alternator, wiring.??
I'd love to change out my Lifelines, but don't want to open a can of worms.

Re: House battery question

Reply #36 – September 22, 2020, 08:19:18 pm

Some inverters have a lithium profile, you need that ability then you need a BAM that works on lithium you could bypass the alternator charging if you don't want to spend for a battery to battery charger. The wires would be the same I believe.
I am sure some of the lithium members will give better information.

Re: House battery question

Reply #37 – September 22, 2020, 10:14:29 pm

Glenn,

In general, LiFePO4 batteries will be a drop in replacement. Terminals on battery cables might be different, maybe not. Wire sizes are probably OK. LiFePO4 batteries should be charged at 20% or less of maximum capacity. So for 400 amp hrs charging should not be more than 80 amps. Most newer inverter/chargers can be set for maximum charge. Most newer inverter/chargers can be set for a LiFePO4 profile. Or the details of the charge profile can be set for LiFePO4 batteries.

Your alternator is OK. There are a variety of means to charge while driving. Some are just on/off devices to limit the charge. Others are more sophisticated and take power from the alternator and charge the LiFePO4 in a multi step charge profile. These Battery to Battery chargers are available in many sizes. With solar you may not need to charge the batteries using the alternator at all.

You may have to change the battery rack to fit the much lighter weight LiFePO4 batteries and provide a means for positive hold downs.

While you are doing this you might want to consider wiring the batteries to a bus bar and add a switch to disconnect the batteries. A fuse at the battery end is prudent.

When you are done your system will be improved from original.

Re: House battery question

Reply #38 – September 22, 2020, 10:14:55 pm

the anecdotal info from a user is great. IF you have the ability to fully recharge after every use and keep the percentage withdrawn from the batteries down as much as possible then you should have a long life on any batteries.

Re: House battery question

Reply #39 – September 23, 2020, 11:59:19 am

Quote from: Caflashbob – September 22, 2020, 10:14:55 pm

the anecdotal info from a user is great. IF you have the ability to fully recharge after every use and keep the percentage withdrawn from the batteries down as much as possible then you should have a long life on any batteries.

That doesn't really apply to lithium's like it does to Gel, AGM or conventional wet cell batteries. Lithium's don't care about being left in a partial state of charge, and they can be discharged much further without any side effects. They relieve the burden of making sure you top off every day for the sake of protecting the batteries, which is a big advantage.

Re: House battery question

Reply #40 – September 23, 2020, 01:55:57 pm

https://youtu.be/2BsSWCc66_w

The above link. Has a discount for "Lion" lithium batteries 15%. The info he gives. Shadows what all are saying.
Mark

Re: House battery question

Reply #41 – September 23, 2020, 02:46:55 pm

I appreciate the fellows input in the above video. It was done two years ago, in 2018. In his class C he only wanted to use room for 2 Battle Born batteries of the type he selected. Two years later, in this video posted Aug 2020, he replaces the two Battle Born 100ah with Lion Energy 1300 units.

https://youtu.be/eCulLknfhTQ

Re: House battery question

Reply #42 – September 23, 2020, 03:47:02 pm

This might move me over the fence.

https://www.costco.com/lion-energy-safari-ut1300-2-pack.product.100663833.html

Re: House battery question

Reply #43 – September 23, 2020, 03:58:23 pm

Quote from: craneman – September 23, 2020, 03:47:02 pm

This might move me over the fence.

https://www.costco.com/lion-energy-safari-ut1300-2-pack.product.100663833.html

So, for $2800 plus tax, you get 420 Ah and they only weigh 23 lbs each. Not bad at all. But, that's what our ML320 cost within $100.

Our 6 weight about 60 lbs each so 360 lbs for ours compared to less than 100 lbs for 4 Lions.

Pierce

Re: House battery question

Reply #44 – September 23, 2020, 04:32:31 pm

$2,800.00 and subtract the 1,365.00 that I would buy the 3 AGMS from O'reilly's and the total is $1,435.00 for less weight and more usable amps. As I said it MIGHT put me over the fence. Only have 4 days to ***t or get off the **t

Re: House battery question

Reply #45 – September 23, 2020, 04:37:43 pm

Good point, and thank you Craneman for posting the Costco sale, 2 Lion 1300's for $1,399.99, special event ending Sept. 29, 2020. Maybe it will be continued. Costco has sometimes, in the past, picked up products from companies that participate in Special Event roadshows, such as those by Precor.

I have seen Battle Born selling "blems" for $850 in a once a year sale. Nothing like competition for the consumer.

The Lion Energy batteries are a good value. Though I think it is important to point out the difference between these, and Battle Born batteries. I believe Will Prowse, does a reasonable job pointing out the differences, construction, UL listing, etc. Only you will know your needs, desires, and budget,

https://youtu.be/KRe9TWEEoI0

Re: House battery question

Reply #46 – September 23, 2020, 05:03:12 pm

Well Jack, thanks for that info. I am off the fence and back to waiting for my Lifelines to fail and Battle Born's to come down. If they don't I will go to O'Reilly's when the time comes.

Re: House battery question

Reply #47 – September 23, 2020, 06:35:36 pm

Quote from: Jack Lewis – September 23, 2020, 04:37:43 pm

I have seen Battle Born selling "blems" for $850 in a once a year sale. Nothing like competition for the consumer.

I've been involved in 3 separate purchases of Battleborns for a total of 6 batteries and I've found that they can always come up with "blems" for $850 when requested. They're supposed to have some sort of cosmetic issues like extra glue at the seams but I've never found anything that I would consider a blemish on any of them. My assumption is that they pull them off the shelf and apply the $100 discount at will, using the "blem" code as a justification that is not available to their retail sellers. At least one popular retailer that I spoke with agrees, and is not particularly happy about it but can't match the deal.

Re: House battery question

Reply #48 – September 23, 2020, 07:25:30 pm

Lion batteries weigh 23 lbs vs BB 29-30 lbs. Part of the difference is BB has more reserve calacity after 100 amp hrs are used and they are just heavier duty. Great built in BMS too. LION says charge at 100 amps max. On a 105 amphr battery that will likely reduce the 3500 cycles significntly. BB does suggest that 20% of capacity charge will increase cycles to about 5000. And they do want you to go back to 100% SOC when you can to allow the BMS to balance the individual cells to maximize the capacity of the battery as a whole.

This is a long term choice. Choose wisely.

Re: House battery question

Reply #49 – September 23, 2020, 09:55:01 pm

Temp restrictions caused me personally to not buy li-ion when we bought our gels.

River hot is a use for us. Some winter maybe.

I liked musks battery day yesterday. Watched it on my iPad in a hospital parking lot while my DW was getting treatment and I started hearing car horns honking from random cars in the lot. What the heck?

Turned out they were also watching Tesla's battery day and honking when he mentioned his companies breakthrough new technologies.

Nerds. I started honking also.

3 years to a $25k autonomous electric car.....

Watch the video. Bigger fatter taller cells. 80mm tall.

Tesla dropped their price on powerwalls reportedly 27%. Be tempted to buy 2 for our home and receive the rebates then have one fall off and end up on a compartment floor. Temp controlled internally

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