Alternator, Isolator or both?

Topic: Alternator, Isolator or both? (Read 2549 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #25 – January 03, 2022, 11:16:07 am

Ok. We will continue with our originally scheduled program (travel) using the boost....

This is what I plan to have sent to Angleton:

Delco Remy 28si, 200amp, J Mount - Quality Power Auto / $345 & $25 for pulley
Victron Energy Argo FET Battery Isolators 200-2AC (2 Batteries 200 amp) - Amazon
Cole Hersee 24213 12V 200A Continuous Solenoid (2 of them?) - Amazon

Am I missing anything? Breakers and resettable fuses were mentioned....
Also what are y'all using to label wires? We generally use tape and a marker, but it not great.

-Christine
Navigator and Credit Card Controller

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #26 – January 03, 2022, 12:00:57 pm

Quote

Am I missing anything?

Not strictly related to your issue, but if you want to replace the other components on the isolator board you could do the relays and circuit breakers.

Circuit Breaker: Bussman CBC15B (15 amp) - About $5 each (Amazon or any auto parts store)
Relay: Standard RY 115 - About $11 at auto parts store
Solenoid: The other Cole-Hersee solenoid

Also, if you're feeling froggy and your isolator board is still located out by the rear tire, you could consider moving it to the under-the-bed location as Foretravel did on later models. One job always turns into three!

jor

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #27 – January 03, 2022, 12:05:15 pm

Quote from: jor – January 03, 2022, 12:00:57 pm

If you want to replace the other components on the isolator board you could do the relays and circuit breakers.

Good suggestion - do it all at once and never worry about that panel again!

Check your wiring diagram to verify the circuit breaker "size" (15 or 20 amp). Or, look on the old breakers for ID markings.

Another source for relays. Always handy to have a few spares in your parts drawer. Many uses!

Amazon.com: 10 Pack Bosch Style 5-Pin 12V Relay Switch [SPDT] [30/40 Amp] 12...

The Cole Hersee 24213 is good for replacing both solenoids. It will look slightly different than the aux start solenoid you have now, but will work in exactly the same way. Requires one additional ground wire to hook it up - just like the other (old) boost solenoid you have now.

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Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #28 – January 03, 2022, 12:23:22 pm

Christine, you can get clear heat shrink tubing. I use that and a post it note (or part of one) and write on it with a marker. Works great. I tried making a label with my label printer, looked good until heat from shrinking the tube turned it black.

See
XHF 3/4 inch (19mm) 3:1 Waterproof Clear Heat Shrink Tubing Marine Grade...

And Yes, a good supply of Bosch style relays are very useful. Amazing what you can do with them.

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Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #29 – January 22, 2022, 05:35:03 pm

Got the 200 amp Delco type (WAI brand) alternator installed. Only connected the DUVAC wire to the S post, didn't know what to do with the other little wire marked KEY SWITCH. Intended to install Argofet (200Amp-2 bank) isolator but just realized that it's a no-go with LIFEPO house batteries. How do we proceed? We have solar to charge the house batteries and intend to keep battery banks connected at the boost solenoid.

This stuff isn't intuitive for me but I ain't skeered! Still, I'm aiming for a simpler solution
-Jimmy

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #30 – January 22, 2022, 05:58:06 pm

Key switch would go to the IGN terminal on the alternator= any 12 VDC positive that is hot only when the ignition is on.

No idea if your new alternator needs that one of if you can remove it.

What does the wiring diagram that came with your new alternator say?

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #31 – January 22, 2022, 06:39:24 pm

When you say "Delco TYPE alternator" that raises the question of how closely it copies the Delco design. If it is exactly the same as the Delco 28Si then it should connect the same way. If it is different on the back, then you will, as Brett says, need to follow the instructions that came with it.

The Delco 28SI alternator does not require a "hot with ignition" EXCITE wire. There is no place to connect one on the Delco 28SI.

The only small wire that should be connected to a Delco 28SI is the "always hot" SENSE wire. It goes on the small "S" post.

With the Delco 24SI and 28SI alternators, B+ voltage on the output stud is necessary for initial turn-on (excitation). See the link below for Peter's info on connecting the Delco 28Si alternator and how to make it work with a battery isolator. (I see Peter was typing down below the same time I was)

DelcoRemy 28SI alternator

Why won't the ArgoFET isolator work with your battery setup? It is the perfect isolator to use with the Delco 28SI.

Are you are concerned about having two different types of batteries?

If you keep the two battery banks connected together with the boost solenoid, how is that different than using the isolator?

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #32 – January 22, 2022, 06:58:06 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – January 22, 2022, 05:58:06 pm

Key switch would go to the IGN terminal on the alternator= any 12 VDC positive that is hot only when the ignition is on.

The Delco 28SI does not have an ignition excite terminal. Connecting ignition excite to the "I" terminal will permanently damage the alternator.

The only way the Delco will work in a 2 battery bank isolator setup is with an isolator designed for use with a Delco - with an ignition excite terminal - like the ArgoFET. Delco will not work with the OEM diode isolator.

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #33 – January 22, 2022, 07:14:12 pm

No diagram came with the alternator. We will request one.

This was on the page for the isolator we bought:

Question: The wiring diagram seems to indicate that this can only be used with three lfp batteries. can one of them be a lead-acid starting battery ?
Answer: This device is NOT recommended for LFP batteries at all (the batteries shown in the wiring diagram are non-specific battery templates), as it is not current-limiting nor does it offer the intelligent multi-stage charge profile recommended for LFP batteries. It is strongly advised that you do NOT charge an LFP battery directly from an alternator, as the LFP does not offer the internal resistance of an FLA battery and as such can easily burn out your alternator.
We strongly advise against connecting any LFP battery bank to this device; instead, you should use a battery-to-battery charger with current-limiting capability. If you are using this device to connect FLA or AGM batteries, however, it will work very well; please make particular note of the model you select, however, as you posted this question specifically on the 200-2 model, which only supports 2 batteries, not 3.

Regards,
-Justin
Mobile Power Pros / Bay Marine Supply

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #34 – January 22, 2022, 07:29:11 pm

Here is the Delco tech bulletin that explains how to use a Delco alternator with a battery isolator system.

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #35 – January 22, 2022, 07:34:18 pm

This is the alternator we bought. 200amp/J Mount
Quality Power

Note: Jimmy has actually written a post on his account! His first! Waiting on approval:)

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #36 – January 22, 2022, 07:38:07 pm

Unfortunately this note on that web page is misleading, probably written by someone unfamiliar with a Delco alternator. Note should also say "with isolator designed for use with a Delco."

"NOTE: Can be used on applications with self-exciting, DUVAC (remote sense), and/or ignition triggered OE systems. Also has a tach terminal."

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #37 – January 22, 2022, 07:54:12 pm

Quote from: Vossx2 – January 22, 2022, 05:35:03 pm

Got the 200 amp Delco type (WAI brand) alternator installed.

This is a Chinese copy of the Delco 28SI. I would expect the operation also replicates the original Delco 28SI.

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #38 – January 22, 2022, 10:38:27 pm

Quote from: Vossx2 – January 22, 2022, 05:35:03 pm

Got the 200 amp Delco type (WAI brand) alternator installed. Only connected the DUVAC wire to the S post, didn't know what to do with the other little wire marked KEY SWITCH.

If you decide to go ahead and use the ArgoFET isolator, then you would connect the wire marked KEY SWITCH to the small ENERGIZE connection on the isolator using the supplied crimp connector. That way, when you turn the ignition key to ON, power is supplied to the ENERGIZE circuit in the isolator. This internal circuit routes battery voltage to the ALT INPUT post on the isolator. The alternator, seeing B+ (battery voltage) on that post, is EXCITED into action and starts charging.

IF your 28SI clone alternator works like a genuine Delco 28SI, and IF you do not use the ArgoFET isolator, then you will need to devise another way of suppling B+ (EXCITE) voltage to the alternator output post. This would normally be accomplished (in a single battery application) by connecting the alternator output cable directly to the start battery. With this setup, it would still be a good idea to leave the SENSE (Duvac) wire connected to the "S" post on the alternator (although it would not be mandatory).

You can work with what you have on hand...but you need to carefully think it through. Any questions just ask!

NOTE: DO NOT connect the KEY SWITCH wire directly to the alternator output post or cable! This will not work. The alternator will attempt to send charging amps through the small gauge wire back to the ignition switch. At some point in that circuit, magic smoke will escape.

Magic smoke - Wikipedia

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #39 – January 23, 2022, 09:58:52 am

Thanks everyone for sharing your wisdom. I'll continue with the isolator upgrade and parts replacement on the isolator board. If this Chinese alternator burns up, Oh Well! I'm considering adding B2B chargers in the future. We'll research the forum for answers first but when my head starts bleeding from excess head-scratching, we'll be back.

Jimmy

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #40 – January 23, 2022, 10:31:14 am

Quote from: Fuzzy62 – January 23, 2022, 09:58:52 am

I'll continue with the isolator upgrade and parts replacement on the isolator board. If this Chinese alternator burns up, Oh Well! I'm considering adding B2B chargers in the future. We'll research the forum for answers first...

Lithium Upgrade

DC/DC Isolation Charger

Lithium battery build 542AH 50

Another lithium upgrade.

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #41 – January 23, 2022, 10:48:40 am

I looked back through your old posts and see you installed the LiFePo batteries over a year ago. Apparently you have been using the old original isolator and alternator since that time. This may have been what killed the old alternator? I don't know enough about lithium batteries to answer that.

The links in the post above offer a number of solutions to integrating LiFePo house batteries and AGM chassis batteries. For the most part, this requires replacing the battery isolator with something different. At this point in your project, I think you should wait on installing the ArgoFET isolator, and think about returning it for a refund. Use the money towards purchasing a more appropriate charging device that will work with the two different battery types on your coach.

There is a simple solution that would get you back in operation while you plan your next move.

First, do not install the ArgoFET isolator. Connect the alternator output cable to the chassis (start) battery cable. Both these cable ends were connected to the old isolator, so they are located in close proximity. Just tie them together with a nut and bolt and carefully insulate the connection to prevent shorts. This will let you use your new alternator to charge the chassis batteries. It will also eliminate the need for a EXCITE wire.

Second, use your existing solar controller and (when plugged in or running generator) your inverter/charger to keep the LiFePo batteries charged. I assume they both have appropriate settings for this type battery. Unless you do a lot of boondocking, this should work fine.

With this setup, your battery banks will normally remain totally separated. If for any reason you must combine them, you can use the BOOST switch.

This is how I run our coach electrical system. We do not use any kind of battery isolator. It works fine for us! NOTE: All of our batteries are AGM.

Delco Remy 28SI Alternator Installation

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #42 – January 23, 2022, 12:18:05 pm

Quote from: Fuzzy62 – January 23, 2022, 09:58:52 am

...If this Chinese alternator burns up, Oh Well!...

This alternator may work fine...just a word to the wise for anyone considering an alternator upgrade or any other parts...need to be extra careful buying replacement parts.

Be wary of wording that says Delco "type" or Delco "equivalent" or "for Delco xxxx" or "replaces Delco xxxx".

Search for the actual Delco mfg PN 8600307 (for the 200 amp 28SI) and look for "manufacturer: Delco-Remy" and the Delco-Remy logo.

Delco only makes a 160, 180 and 200 amp 28SI. Anybody selling higher 240 amp or 270 amp "28SI" alternators is not selling genuine parts.

Expect to pay more for genuine parts. A surprisingly low price usually means a clone of the original part.

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #43 – January 23, 2022, 12:25:08 pm

There should be no reason not to use a Delco Remy (actual or copy) alternator. It only uses the sense wire to boost the alternator voltage a bit when the start batteries are at a lower voltage (like right after you start). After a while, it will calm down back towards 14v. The only small wire to connect to it is the sense wire coming from the start batteries. Do not use the excite wire. It is only used for modified alternators that need an external voltage to start working.

A Victron ArgoFET isolator is a great one if both sets of batteries are the same type. It is not a good choice if one set is lead and the other is LiFePO4 batteries which will take as much charge as you can give them, bad for the batteries and bad for the alternator.

A better choice is a Battery to Battery charger. With these you need no isolator, the B2B charger is the isolator. The output from the alternator charges the start batteries and connects to the input side of the B2B charger. The output from the B2B charger connects to your LiFePO4 batteries and provides multi-stage charging to the batteries. It will not overcharge your LiFePO4 batteries or overwork your alternator. Victron makes 30 amp B2B chargers, you can use more than one of them in parallel, Sterling makes a 60 amp version.

BattleBorn suggests a maximum charge rate of 20% of your total capacity to achieve the longest possible battery life (measured in charge cycles). At this maximum rate, they have achieved over 5000 charge cycles.

A second choice if you have a large LiFePO4 battery capacity is to use BattleBorn's charge isolator (BIM, I think it is called). It is similar to a B2B charger sharing the alternator output with the start batteries and the input of the BIM. The output goes to your LiFePO4 batteries. The difference is that it works with a timer, on for a while then off for a while. No multi-stage charging, just on with all your alternator will provide and then off to let the alternator cool off and the batteries to catch a breath after a long hard guzzle.

Be careful with your LiFePO4 batteries, lots of money tied up there, They can be overcharged or charged too aggressively which compromises their long-life capability.

You can still have and use (sometimes) a boost switch for an occasional start aid. If you need it frequently then it is time to go through the start wiring and start batteries. In general, you should not have to use the boost switch for starting if start batteries, start battery wiring, and the starter are in good condition.

I would suggest not using the boost switch or a manual switch to combine battery bank when they are different battery types (lead and LiFePO4). If you need to combine battery banks choose a smart voltage sensing relay combiner or any of the other "smart" devices. A manual device is combining battery sets with significantly different resting voltages and chemistries.

Roger

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #44 – January 26, 2022, 12:42:25 am

Replace the heavy duty solenoid that is hiding behind the front removeable panel next to the front door. Pull out on both sides on the BOTTOM to get at the solenoids at the bottom. Use your multimeter to determine when it ACTIVATES when you energize it by turning on the ignition key. If it has been intermittently failing, it will cause ALL KINDS of WEIRD PROBLEMS. Change it now to avoid future problems. BUY "TWO" as they fail about every 100K and you will be prepared.
Regards

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #45 – January 26, 2022, 06:45:46 am

Quote from: Jon Twork – January 26, 2022, 12:42:25 am

Replace the heavy duty solenoid that is hiding behind the front removeable panel next to the front door. Pull out on both sides on the BOTTOM to get at the solenoids at the bottom. Use your multimeter to determine when it ACTIVATES when you energize it by turning on the ignition key. If it has been intermittently failing, it will cause ALL KINDS of WEIRD PROBLEMS. Change it now to avoid future problems. BUY "TWO" as they fail about every 100K and you will be prepared.
Regards

And make sure you get a CONSTANT DUTY solenoid of at least the rating of the old one. Here, higher rating is good. Many of us have gone with a much better version: Solenoid L-Series - 250A 12/24V - Blue Sea Systems

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #46 – January 26, 2022, 06:59:16 am

Think one reason not to use a Delco "copy" would be crappy quality,even if someone has had "good luck"with one it is not the same.

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #47 – January 29, 2022, 10:33:13 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – January 26, 2022, 06:45:46 am

And make sure you get a CONSTANT DUTY solenoid of at least the rating of the old one. Here, higher rating is good. Many of us have gone with a much better version: Solenoid L-Series - 250A 12/24V - Blue Sea Systems

What happens if (when) this solenoid fails? Looks like one week from Amazon for the Blue Sea. Reasonable replacement usually available from NAPA?

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #48 – January 29, 2022, 10:43:29 am

Quote from: morninghill – January 29, 2022, 10:33:13 am

What happens if (when) this solenoid fails? Looks like one week from Amazon for the Blue Sea. Reasonable replacement usually available from NAPA?

There are several solenoids in the coach, performing different functions. Basically, solenoids are used to turn on/off higher loads than you want a switch to handle. That way the switch only "switches" the signal of a few amps, not high loads.

The IGNITION SOLENOID supplies all circuits that energize with the ignition is turned on. So, if it goes out, the Allison shift pad will not illuminate (no start/no shift), etc. Easiest diagnostic is if the dash HVAC fan does not operate, you need to check the ignition solenoid/ignition switch and wiring between them.

Not aware of any NAPA solenoid similar to the BlueSea electronic switch. If you look at NAPA, verify it is a constant duty solenoid and at least the amp rating of the one it is replacing (here bigger is better). Compare specs as well. Lower quality solenoids and many of the "replaces" solenoids generate more heat/resistance.

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #49 – January 29, 2022, 11:38:20 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – January 29, 2022, 10:43:29 am

The IGNITION SOLENOID supplies all circuits that energize with the ignition is turned on.
Not aware of any NAPA solenoid similar to the BlueSea electronic switch.

I believe the 2001 U320 is going to have a different setup from the older coaches with the single ignition solenoid. On newer coaches not as simple to substitute the (excellent) Blue Sea unit, but it can be done.

On Mike & Molly's coach there should be two ignition solenoids, located behind the beauty panel in front of passenger, at the bottom center on circuit breaker/wiring board. They are black square looking and will have Bosch markings. Much bigger than a standard relay. Each solenoid controls 1/2 the circuits on the board. See photos and more info in link below:

Ignition solenoid on a u320

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