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Topic: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45 (Read 4054 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #25 –
When at Quartzsite with 3- 460 ah batteries at 75% the most i saw the batteries take was around  174 amps and that was for a very short time. I would say that they averaged around 40 amps per battery most of the time.  I have never gotten them down to 50% to see if that would have caused them to charge at a higher rate
2014 ih45  (4th Foretravel owned)
 1997 36' U295 Sold in 2020, owned for 19 years
  U240 36' Sold to insurance company after melting in garage fire
    33' Foretravel on Dodge Chassis  Sold very long time ago

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #26 –
Awesome testing.

It looks like you "could" have a situation where the Orions wouldn't keep up if you ran the A/C while driving:

Orions providing 200 amps - house load of 238 amps = -38 amps.

This additional current draw would be covered by the house batteries.
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #27 –
Also on turbojack's question about charging. I believe your "before" calculations left out possible charging of the house batteries. Let's say house batteries are at 60% after some dry camping and the driving starts and you need the A/C. During the time of charging the house batteries there could be a significant overload of the alternator.
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #28 –
Quote from: turbojack –
the most i saw the batteries take was around  174 amps and that was for a very short time.
I'll reiterate that I am not at all an expert on these things and please take my comments as intended to be helpful discussion, but I think you may have been maxing out your alternator and that was the limiting factor.

I'm making a few assumptions, that you were charging off of the alternator, you were using high idle and your equipment is similar to mine.
If so, that would mean your engine was at ~900 RPM and using a 3.36 ratio of drive pulley to alternator pulley (this is what mine has) that would mean the alternator was seeing 3,024 RPMs at the shaft.  From the attached alternator specs the alternator should have been putting at around 235-amps.

235    Total
-26    Load I measured with engine only
-174  going to batteries
35    amps remaining for ALL house loads plus 10% inverter losses

The only way to know for sure would be to take actual measurements.
Ted
2014 IH-45  #6585
Louisville, KY

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #29 –
Quote from: prfleming –
It looks like you "could" have a situation where the Orions wouldn't keep up if you ran the A/C while driving:
Orions providing 200 amps - house load of 238 amps = -38 amps.
This additional current draw would be covered by the house batteries.
Correct.  Absolute worst-case scenario, I could start the generator which would supply 100% of the AC load as well as help charge the batteries.

Quote from: prfleming –
Also on turbojack's question about charging. I believe your "before" calculations left out possible charging of the house batteries. Let's say house batteries are at 60% after some dry camping and the driving starts and you need the A/C. During the time of charging the house batteries there could be a significant overload of the alternator.
The only way for the house batteries to get power from the alternator is to go through the DC/DC chargers which can never pull more than 200-amps.
Ted
2014 IH-45  #6585
Louisville, KY

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #30 –
Quote from: Ted_L –
The only way for the house batteries to get power from the alternator is to go through the DC/DC chargers which can never pull more than 200-amps.

Yes, your new setup is very good for the alternator. I was just thinking about the "before" stock Foretravel setup. An unsuspecting owner could fry the alternator.
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #31 –
prfleming, ah, I see.  I misread that before.
Ted
2014 IH-45  #6585
Louisville, KY

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #32 –
Quote from: Ted_L –
I'm making a few assumptions, that you were charging off of the alternator,

I should have said while generator was running.  I also have 2 x Outback VFX2812M inverter/chargers for total of 250 amps but most I saw going in batteries was 174 amps for a short time.

Quote from: prfleming –
I was just thinking about the "before" stock Foretravel setup. An unsuspecting owner could fry the alternator.

Coach came with 6- 8D Gel batteries and I have put many miles on the coach with the second roof AC going on high. There were time that I would forget to turn the unit off when stopping and would not snap to it until I would step back in coach. I bet during those time the alternator was working overtime running roof AC and recharging the house batteries.
2014 ih45  (4th Foretravel owned)
 1997 36' U295 Sold in 2020, owned for 19 years
  U240 36' Sold to insurance company after melting in garage fire
    33' Foretravel on Dodge Chassis  Sold very long time ago

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #33 –
This picture was on the companies web site that build the alternator that is in Ted's and my coaches. Would you say that this alternator can run continues at 90%?  If so 90% of 340 = 306 amps
2014 ih45  (4th Foretravel owned)
 1997 36' U295 Sold in 2020, owned for 19 years
  U240 36' Sold to insurance company after melting in garage fire
    33' Foretravel on Dodge Chassis  Sold very long time ago

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #34 –
Quote from: turbojack –
The manufacture of our 340 amp alternator is no longer in business.
I was looking at the K.E.I web site (re-directs to Patriot Parts) and it appears they now are re-selling Dixie DelStar brushless alternators with their own part numbers.

Patriot Parts & Service

DELSTAR - Heavy Duty Brushless Alternators
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #35 –
Quote from: turbojack –
This picture was on the companies web site that build the alternator that is in Ted's and my coaches. Would you say that this alternator can run continues at 90%?  If so 90% of 340 = 306 amps
Hmmm, I wouldn't design a system based on that. With alternators there is a lot of "specsmanship" going on.

The other thing with alternators is beware of the knock-offs. They say things like "replaces" or "compatible with". Another indicator is the cost is 1/2 of the genuine original.

An alternator failure 1000 miles from home is no fun.
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #36 –
This is a well thought out system and everything has been designed with plenty of reserve capacity.

Looking at the alternator heat pictures there is one at 247 degrees. It seems to me, the alternator is the weak link in this otherwise very robust system. Also the K.E.I. model you have is not the more reliable brushless design.

If it was me, as the last upgrade to bring everything up to snuff, I would go to a brushless Delco 430 amp or a DelStar 435 amp alternator. Add a 5th Orion and then have 250 amps to support the A/C, fridge, house loads with power to spare and the alternator will run cooler and last longer. Keep the K.E.I. as a spare.
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #37 –
Quote from: prfleming –
I would go to a brushless Delco 430 amp or a DelStar 435 amp alternator

Just looked on Amazon and price is $3,350.00 with 1 day shipping  for the Oem Delco 55Si Pad Mount Alternator  430 amps. In my case I think I will keep what I have.  I have been 1,350 miles from home and had a def head go bad that put me in 5 mph max derate right after it went south, don't know how a dead alternator could be any worse.  I will have to go and look again but I think the only thing on the alternator belt is the alternator.
2014 ih45  (4th Foretravel owned)
 1997 36' U295 Sold in 2020, owned for 19 years
  U240 36' Sold to insurance company after melting in garage fire
    33' Foretravel on Dodge Chassis  Sold very long time ago

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #38 –
So much going on here. I lost track of who is doing what.  I see a lot of over complication.
Anyone think to add another alternator? Really need that much battery-inverter power? Maybe 24 or 48 volt.
Many Prevost-Newels have 24 volt 500 amp alternators. 24 volt chassis electrical also common.
Some have 3 or 4 alternators.
The original Duvac-Diode set up already has significant current limitation to the house battery bank. That works very well with reasonable size lithium packs.
My 270 amp alternator-diode block is supporting a 900 A/H set just fine.
Dennis Haynes
Bohemia NY
2008 Nimbus 342 SE Carlyle
Build #6475
Motorcade #19148

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #40 –
Quote from: turbojack –
Just looked on Amazon and price is $3,350.00 with 1 day shipping  for the Oem Delco 55Si Pad Mount Alternator  430 amps.
Careful, that is a Rareelectrical knock-off, not genuine Delco.
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #41 –
I called Dixie DelStar, their competitive model for the Delco 55SI is a Series 180 100-18111 435 amp alternator.
Price quoted was $1583.33.

Ducted end cap is available to provide outside air much cooler than in the engine room.
 
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #42 –
Quote from: prfleming –
I called Dixie DelStar, their competitive model for the Delco 55SI is a Series 180 100-18111 435 amp alternator.
Price quoted was $1583.33.

Ducted end cap is available to provide outside air much cooler than in the engine room.

This site is an awesome resource. Thank you for the post. 
Dennis Haynes
Bohemia NY
2008 Nimbus 342 SE Carlyle
Build #6475
Motorcade #19148

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #43 –
Quote from: Dennis H –
This site is an awesome resource. Thank you for the post.
Update on DelStar Series 180 100-18111 435 amp alternator. They are currently out of stock, new units scheduled to be available 4/18. You can order direct (bypass distributor) and have shipped from the factory in Canada.

Call Candice 905.......879.......0533.

Notes:
Confirm pad width of 80 mm on your existing alternator.
105 mm pad also is available
J-180 mount also is available
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #44 –
Quote from: prfleming –
I called Dixie DelStar, their competitive model for the Delco 55SI is a Series 180 100-18111 435 amp alternator.
Price quoted was $1583.33.

Ducted end cap is available to provide outside air much cooler than in the engine room.

Curious what is the price for either the 275- or 340-amp alternator. I have a very simple set up. My inverter/charger has a 150 A/H charge section. With the 12K genny I really could add a second charger or inverter/charger combo. Treating my alternator nicely I could use the genny and the inverter charger to provide near 150 amps to the batteries adding to or reducing the alternator load and also running the AC or whatever at a cost of ~$4.00/hour.  That's 250 hours per $1,000 of upgrades for alternator battery charging. My 2008 generator is just under 1,270 hours.
Dennis Haynes
Bohemia NY
2008 Nimbus 342 SE Carlyle
Build #6475
Motorcade #19148

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #45 –
Quote from: prfleming –
I called Dixie DelStar, their competitive model for the Delco 55SI is a Series 180 100-18111 435 amp alternator.
Price quoted was $1583.33.

Ducted end cap is available to provide outside air much cooler than in the engine room.

Curious what is the price for either the 275- or 340-amp alternator. I have a very simple set up. My inverter/charger has a 150 A/H charge section. With the 12K genny I really could add a second charger or inverter/charger combo. Treating my alternator nicely I could use the genny and the inverter charger to provide near 150 amps to the batteries adding to or reducing the alternator load and also running the AC or whatever at a cost of ~$4.00/hour.  That's 250 hours per $1,000 of upgrades for alternator battery charging. My 2008 generator is just under 1,270 hours.
Dennis Haynes
Bohemia NY
2008 Nimbus 342 SE Carlyle
Build #6475
Motorcade #19148

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #46 –
Give Candice a call, tell her Peter sent you  ^.^d
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #47 –

One thing I should mention regarding Delco and DelStar alternators. These are similar in that they are self-excited and do not have an excite terminal. This means they will not work with a standard diode isolator.

To use one of these alternators with an isolator the isolator must be replaced with one that has an "ignition" or "energize" terminal which will provide the required start up voltage to the alternator. Several forum members have done this when switching to a Delco alternator.

Here are links for a couple of isolators that will work with a Delco or DelStar alternator.

Amazon.com: Victron Energy Argofet Battery Isolators 200-2AC (2 Batteries...

Sure Power 24023aIB Battery Isolator

These self-excited alternators will work in any system connected directly to batteries. In Ted's lithium system the alternator is connected directly to the start batteries so a self-excited alternator will work fine.

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #48 –
Here is the Delco bulletin that describes the isolator issue in more detail.
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: Lithium Conversion - 2014 IH-45

Reply #49 –
Note the current limitation of those isolators. Need larger or parallel.
Dennis Haynes
Bohemia NY
2008 Nimbus 342 SE Carlyle
Build #6475
Motorcade #19148