Re: Surge Guards Reply #25 – August 08, 2011, 05:43:42 pm Michelle,Just for your info, it seems the industry normal voltage range per UL listing is +/- 10%, however on some of our equipment we add sensors, use the variac and set at +/- 5%. also if outside this range for 3 seconds, we drop load and go to generator. This is the general range I have our home generator system setup for. There can be an issue come up when there is a power outage and the voltage will ot come back up to the 95% level, so the generator will run for a while longer. The point is to keep the voltage level within reasonable levels. I do not like the 105 - 108 level nor the 132 volt level.I love control circuits, relays and timers = Happiness Cheers Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #26 – August 08, 2011, 05:56:28 pm Quote from: Dave M – August 08, 2011, 05:43:42 pmThe point is to keep the voltage level within reasonable levels. I do not like the 105 - 108 level nor the 132 volt level.I love control circuits, relays and timers = Happiness I don't like those low or high end voltages either. Steve will tell you I hawk the voltage readout in the coach constantly (118/119), and I will shut things off if I see anything less than 112 or above 128 on those readouts (which Steve calibrated when he replaced the resistors and bulbs). (118/118)You know, if you came up with a better surge/voltage protector and generator control I'd buy one from you. (118/119)Michelle (118/118 ) Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #27 – August 08, 2011, 06:07:10 pm Quote from: Steve & Michelle – August 08, 2011, 05:17:43 pmI couldn't find any info on the Progressive Industries' EMS over/under time delay. Does anyone know what it is (not the start-up one, but if over/under voltage occurs some time after establishing a shore connection)?Michelle... you piqued my curiosity, and I too couldn't find anything online or in the manual - and we own the EMS-PT50C portable unit. I just sent an email to Progressive Industries (in Morrisville, NC), so I'll post the answer when I receive it.PS I see temps in SF are 90 (10% humidity) - here in Benson, AZ we're the same, but with 34% humidity - so much for Arizona's "dry heat"... another 6 weeks of monsoon season here! Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #28 – August 08, 2011, 06:28:29 pm Here is an excerpt of the info from my Progressive HW50C manual:"High low voltage protection: Whenever source power falls below 104 Volts, or rise above 132 volts the EMS automatically shut down power to the RV. Once the AC source rises above 104-volts, or below the 132-volt level the time delay indicator flashes for the preset time and then automatically restores power to RV.A call to them to talk to an engineer might be in order before relying on the owner's instruction manual which is only 5 pages and no real specifications.919-462-8280 is Progressive Industries phone nr. Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #29 – August 09, 2011, 12:41:20 am Quote from: Steve & Michelle – August 08, 2011, 05:17:43 pm .....................I couldn't find any info on the Progressive Industries' EMS over/under time delay. Does anyone know what it is (not the start-up one, but if over/under voltage occurs some time after establishing a shore connection)? I'm thinking we would rather have a device that would respond more quickly to kill power, but then wait the 2 minutes before allowing it to pass to the coach. I'd think it would be healthier for the A/Cs, etc..........................Michelle Michelle,16 second delay in allowing power to pass upon initial plug-in. Blinking red light on readout indicates that parameters are being evaluated. Trip (interruption of) power in the sub-nanosecond range when a monitored polarity, ground, surge (all five modes L-N, L-N, L-G, L-G, and N-G) , 240VAC or neutral power parameter goes bad. Trip in a fraction of a second range (10 cycles, if I recall correctly) on line frequency, undervoltage or overvoltage parameters. After Trip, monitored power must stay good for >15 or >136 secs before power is restored (user selectable, 136secs is the default. You need to determine based on your A/C's and whether they do or do not have power interruption, restart protection).Neal Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #30 – August 09, 2011, 07:01:03 am One small bit of info, Years ago the normal voltage was 110-220 then 112-225, then 115-230, then 120=240, now the power companies are still raising the voltage to 125-250 Volt.So I find it interesting the power Co, keeps giving them self a raise.Heck with the power co. neding capacitors to keep the power factor close to unity, they use every trick to keep the meter spinning.Point is, the voltage limits are a moving target, requiring adjustment to sensing equipment to keep in the "Normal" rangeSorry for the rant. Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #32 – August 09, 2011, 08:52:52 am Quote from: Steve & Michelle – August 08, 2011, 05:17:43 pm... I couldn't find any info on the Progressive Industries' EMS over/under time delay. Does anyone know what it is (not the start-up one, but if over/under voltage occurs some time after establishing a shore connection)? I'm thinking we would rather have a device that would respond more quickly to kill power, but then wait the 2 minutes before allowing it to pass to the coach. I'd think it would be healthier for the A/Cs, etc.Michelle This is what I have found on the progressive Industries site... EMS-HW50C I'm not sure that this completely answers your question. "Voltage Protection: Whenever source power falls below 104 Volts, or rises above 132 volts, the EMS automatically shuts down power to the RV. Once the AC source rises above 104-volts, or below the 132-volt level, the time delay indicator flashes for the preset time and then automatically restores power to RV. Time Delay for A/C Compressor: Whenever source power is interrupted by the source or the EMS due to a fault condition, the built in time delay is activated. There are two settings on the EMS; one is 136 seconds, and the other is 15 seconds. Consult you Air Conditioner manual to see if it has a time delay built in. If yes, use the 15-second delay. If no, use the 136-second delay."Re reading your question a second time I may not have addressed your question completely. I have Progressive Industries HWC-50c installed for over 4 years now. My experience has been whenever there is a trip condition encountered the power interruption is immediate. Power will be restored based upon time delay settings (mine is set at 15 seconds) when the fault condition is cleared. Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #33 – August 09, 2011, 10:39:37 am Quote from: Ron Sedgley – August 09, 2011, 08:52:52 amThis is what I have found on the progressive Industries site... EMS-HW50C... Re reading your question a second time I may not have addressed your question completely. I have Progressive Industries HWC-50c installed for over 4 years now. My experience has been whenever there is a trip condition encountered the power interruption is immediate. Power will be restored based upon time delay settings (mine is set at 15 seconds) when the fault condition is cleared.Ron... according to the manual for the portable EMS-PT50C unit that we've had for a couple of years, we cannot set a time delay to re-start after a trip:Time Delay for A/C Compressor: If AC power is interrupted, or the EMS detects a fault condition, the built in time delay is activated. There is a 136-second (02:16) time delay.I have not yet heard from Progressive about how long the over/under voltage condition is allowed before the trip, or if it is immediate. I'll post when I get an email from them. Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #34 – August 09, 2011, 10:44:46 am Quote from: Neal Pillsbury – August 09, 2011, 12:41:20 amTrip in a fraction of a second range (10 cycles, if I recall correctly) on line frequency, undervoltage or overvoltage parameters.NealThanks, Neal - that's the info I was looking for. Much better than the 8 seconds the TRC Surge Guard uses.Michelle Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #35 – August 09, 2011, 11:00:55 am Quote from: Neal Pillsbury – August 09, 2011, 12:41:20 am16 second delay in allowing power to pass upon initial plug-in. Blinking red light on readout indicates that parameters are being evaluated. Trip (interruption of) power in the sub-nanosecond range when a monitored polarity, ground, surge (all five modes L-N, L-N, L-G, L-G, and N-G) , 240VAC or neutral power parameter goes bad. Trip in a fraction of a second range (10 cycles, if I recall correctly) on line frequency, undervoltage or overvoltage parameters. After Trip, monitored power must stay good for >15 or >136 secs before power is restored (user selectable, 136secs is the default. You need to determine based on your A/C's and whether they do or do not have power interruption, restart protection).Neal, it looks like you have the hardwired system. From what I can tell for the portable system, there are a couple of differences:initial power to RV: "The EMS has a 136-second time delay before you will receive power into your RV."power restored after trip: "If AC power is interrupted, or the EMS detects a fault condition, the built in time delay is activated. There is a 136-second (02:16) time delay."There's no explicit info in the portable manual on time delay after trip condition is detected - hoping it's the same sub-nano range as the hardwired unit (see previous post about awaiting email response from Progressive on this). Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #36 – August 09, 2011, 11:37:24 am Here is a side by side chart so you can compare them all:Electrical Protection Comparison ChartThe only thing it doesn't compare is quality. Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #37 – August 09, 2011, 12:13:24 pm I just received an email from Progressive in response to my question regarding the portable unit: "What is the amount of the delay (in seconds) before the EMS-PT50C automatically shuts down power if the voltage is under 104V or over 132V?"Here is their reply:Under voltage of 104 volts, there is a 6 second delay, over voltage above 132 it is no delay.Thomas E. Fanelli, PresidentProgressive Industries414B Airport BoulevardMorrisville, NC 27560(919) 462-8280fax: 919-462-6132tfanelli@progressiveindustries.net Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #38 – August 09, 2011, 02:32:30 pm Quote from: Patricia – August 09, 2011, 12:13:24 pmI just received an email from Progressive in response to my question regarding the portable unit: "What is the amount of the delay (in seconds) before the EMS-PT50C automatically shuts down power if the voltage is under 104V or over 132V?"Thanks, Pat. I've gone ahead and e-mailed them about the EMS-HW50C hardwire unit wrt the same thing.Michelle Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #39 – August 09, 2011, 02:45:16 pm Quote from: Patricia – August 09, 2011, 11:00:55 am..............Neal, it looks like you have the hardwired system. From what I can tell for the portable system, there are a couple of differences:initial power to RV: "The EMS has a 136-second time delay before you will receive power into your RV." power restored after trip: "If AC power is interrupted, or the EMS detects a fault condition, the built in time delay is activated. There is a 136-second (02:16) time delay."There's no explicit info in the portable manual on time delay after trip condition is detected - hoping it's the same sub-nano range as the hardwired unit (see previous post about awaiting email response from Progressive on this).Quote from: Patricia – August 09, 2011, 12:13:24 pmI just received an email from Progressive in response to my question regarding the portable unit: "What is the amount of the delay (in seconds) before the EMS-PT50C automatically shuts down power if the voltage is under 104V or over 132V?"Here is their reply:Under voltage of 104 volts, there is a 6 second delay, over voltage above 132 it is no delay.Thomas E. Fanelli, PresidentProgressive Industries414B Airport BoulevardMorrisville, NC 27560(919) 462-8280fax: 919-462-6132tfanelli@progressiveindustries.netPat,Thanks for posting Tom Fanelli's response.And yes, I have the hardwired model.I have sent an e-mail to Tom, asking if there are TRIP parameter design differences between HW and Portable Units (least likely - can't imagine that there would be) or maybe generational differences as PI's designs evolved over the years (more likely) or that I just plain didn't understand what he told me at the Tampa Supershow where I purchased my EMS-HW50C many years ago (most likely).My previous answers came from a file of combined materials; my owner's manual, on-line info copies from years ago, notes from discussions with other owners and with Tom at the Supershow, notes on a problem I went through with Power Tech and PI involving spurious trips, etc.We'll see if PI can shed any more light on the TRIP parameters and their design.I'll post back when I hear back from PI.Neal Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #40 – August 09, 2011, 03:05:51 pm Quote from: Neal Pillsbury – August 09, 2011, 02:45:16 pmPat,Thanks for posting Tom Fanelli's response.And yes, I have the hardwired model.I have sent an e-mail to Tom, asking if there are TRIP parameter design differences between HW and Portable Units (least likely - can't imagine that there would be) Quote from: Steve & Michelle – August 09, 2011, 02:32:30 pmThanks, Pat. I've gone ahead and e-mailed them about the EMS-HW50C hardwire unit wrt the same thing.Just received a response from Tom to my question of whether the specs for Over/Under and frequency response times were the same for the PT50C and the HW50C:Yes they are the same.Thomas E. Fanelli, PresidentProgressive IndustriesMichelle Quote Selected
Re: Surge Guards Reply #41 – August 09, 2011, 11:55:35 pm Getting back to everyone;I wrote the following e-mail to Tom Fanelli of PI, seeking additional information on the EMS-HW50C OV, UV TRIP sequence:Dear Mr. Fanelli,I wouldn't bother you but I can't find the answers to my questions in either my Owner's literature or on-line on your website.I have owned and admired my hardwired Progressive Industries EMS-HW50C for many years now. I have it installed in a 1998 Foretravel Motorcoach and it has successfully protected and informed me on many occasions. It is a GREAT product and I have elaborated to many others on its superior design and the excellent customer focus of your organization.Recently, a question came up on the ForeForum web site regarding the time interval between the onset of a low voltage (or high voltage condition) and TRIP protection actuation. I had responded to my friends, with what I understood to be the answer (from you or your representatives when I asked the same question at the Tampa Supershow); The EMS-HW50C will sense and TRIP on 104 Vdc decreasing (or 132 Vdc increasing) in a fraction of a second. My understanding is that the EMS-HW50C samples the Line Voltage parameters several times a second and once it accumulates the requisite, consecutive TRIP samples, the unit initiates TRIP. Using my default restart setting of 136 seconds, that starts another timer (two minutes) delaying closure sampling. After two minutes, closure sampling then initiates, going though its 16 second sampling of all parameters and initiates closure if all parameters warrant.It appears that I may have misunderstood, because you provided the following information to another ForeForum member question today.I just received an email from Progressive in response to my question regarding the portableunit: "What is the amount of the delay (in seconds) before the EMS-PT50C automatically shuts down power if the voltage is under 104V or over 132V?"Here is their reply:Under voltage of 104 volts, there is a 6 second delay, over voltage above 132 it is no delay.Thomas E. Fanelli, PresidentProgressive Industries414B Airport BoulevardMorrisville, NC 27560(919) 462-8280fax: 919-462-6132Being retired from the utility industry, I am not surprised that there is a six second delay on the low voltage trip (I assume to prevent spurious TRIPS and because reduced voltage/increased current flow effects do not accumulate instantaneously), but I am curious about how the line voltage (as well as other) parameters are sampled and the engineering design basis for TRIP PROTECTION initiation on each. And are there TRIP parameter design differences between portable and hardwired units? Also, have there been generational differences between units and TRIP parameter designs over the years? Do you have a TRIP parameter design "white paper" that you would be willing to share?I realize that you may not be able to share in-depth answers to all of these questions, but I thank you in advance for your consideration,Neal PillsburyI got the following e-mail response;Neal,You are correct somethings can not be told. The answer that was given to your friend is for all B and C modelsHW and LCHW models.Thomas E. Fanelli, PresidentProgressive Industries414B Airport BoulevardMorrisville, NC 27560(919) 462-8280fax: 919-462-6132tfanelli@progressiveindustries.netSo, I'm still not sure. I assume that Tom is saying that Friend Pat's answer is correct; that there is (always?, sometimes?) a six second time delay inserted into undervoltage TRIP for all B, C, HW and LCHW models.Based on what I have experienced and what I see and hear the ABT and EMS relays doing, I would GUESS that there may be a combination (proprietary in nature) of all of the above going on:Condition 1. There is a 6 second delay if there is a marginal 104 VAC ongoing low voltage condition, (in order to prevent spurious trips and unnecessary trips on power sags, when large appliances start and the incoming voltage momentarily goes lower).Condition 2. But there is a nearly instantaneous trip when incoming voltage goes from say 120 VAC to less than 100 VAC. I conclude this because I have my EMS-HW50C installed downstream of the Automatic Bus Tranfer Device (ABT), in order to protect from shorepower as well as Generator faults. When I have the generator running and I am also plugged into shore power, the ABT naturally positions to use shorepower. In this condition, if I open the shorepower breaker, the ABT immediately transfers to the Generator, but there are a finite number of milliseconds loss of all voltage to the EMS as the ABT shifts from shorepower to the Generator. That abrupt voltage loss always drops out the EMS and then it goes through the 136 seconds restart sequence (NOT the 16 sec initial sampling sequence). The EMS display also shows a loss of Line voltage for L1 (or L2) "Previous Error" code. So it seems like the EMS is TRIPPING (without a 6 second delay) due to "Undervoltage" and not because there was a long enough loss of AC to have the EMS relay field fully collapse, thus deenergizing the relay and dropping it to its shelf state. My logic may be screwed up here, so correct me if I'm wrong.At any rate, I respect the proprietary response and still like the EMS-HW50C a whole lot.As Always, FWIW. Neal Quote Selected
Topic: Surge Guards