Nanopulser ???

Topic: Nanopulser ??? (Read 1756 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #25 – April 29, 2011, 09:07:07 pm

Good article, but I didn't see any mention of desulfators, only this:

"If a battery is continually undercharged, a power-robbing layer of
sulfate will build up on the positive plate, which acts as a barrier
to recharging. Premature plate shedding can also occur.
Performance is reduced and life is shortened"

It does mention that "no high-voltage equalizing charge is necessary", but this is a different matter altogether.

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #26 – April 29, 2011, 09:23:55 pm

Quote from: Tom Lang – April 29, 2011, 09:07:07 pm

Good article, but I didn't see any mention of desulfators, only this:

"If a battery is continually undercharged, a power-robbing layer of
sulfate will build up on the positive plate, which acts as a barrier
to recharging. Premature plate shedding can also occur.
Performance is reduced and life is shortened"

It does mention that "no high-voltage equalizing charge is necessary", but this is a different matter altogether.

Tom,

Nothing beats a careful reading of a good article. Good job.

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #27 – April 29, 2011, 09:25:48 pm

Tom, Yes, Just one question, how does it desulfate the battery and not raise the voltage ?
Always thought it was done by the equalizing, where the voltage was raised up to the 15-16 volt level for an hour or so.
My concern gets into the area of the 14.1 VDC they say to not exceed. When a Gel voltage is raised above this level, the gel delvelops bubbles where it is no longer in contact with the plate, this surely lowers the ability of the battery.
I am very curious how the "Nahopluser" gets rid of the unlikely sulfate condition on a Gel battery with out exceeding the 14.1 VDC
I am aware of the short / partial charging issues. You can kill anything without care and understanding.
I am told the Flooded and AGM are much more likely to have the sulfate problem, and they can withstand the higher voltages, so I am all ears on the Gel issue.

Many Thanks

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #28 – April 29, 2011, 09:32:10 pm

Dave M,

I reviewed the excellent article you recommended. I did not see anything about pulsing to help counter sulfation. A review of an article on Wikipedia and some references leads me to believe that pulse condition may aid in reversing some sulfation. According to the article, as I understood it, the primary way to avoid sulfation is to immediately recharge batteries with a proper charging profile and avoid long, slow discharges without benefit of recharge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery

My conclusion was that the conditioning units that use high current pulses might help and probably wouldn't hurt. A couple of conditioners, one for house batteries and one for chassis batteries, would cost around $150. A full set of AGM batteries for our coach is around $2,000. (3 8Ds at $550 +-, 2 Group 34 at $200+-). If the pulsers would not hurt anything and might extend the life of a set of batteries, it might be worth installing them.

It appears that the pulsers raise the voltage to a relatively high level very briefly in order to send a high current pulse and break the stabilized sulfates. The pulses are short enough not to cause any damage to the battery.

As always, results and opinions will vary.

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #29 – April 29, 2011, 10:04:10 pm

JD, I fully agree on the opinions and ideas are what makes this such an interesting forum. I enjoy bating ideas around, it helps me form MY opinions.

My sole source for battery info is from two ex Exide Battery engineers who started their own wholesale business, where my company has purchased many hundreds of batteries over the past 27 years. I keep asking them some rare questions, they wonder where I come up with all this stuff. I tell them from the Foretravel Forum, they jusr roll their eyes

.
Anyway, we get into some deep talks about batteries. Why I purchased my MK 8G8D, (I think they were)Gel (3) for my coach ($265.00 ea.) as they recommended against the AGM set.
I know nothing, I have some educated opinions.
Cheers

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #30 – April 29, 2011, 11:31:14 pm

Quote from: Dave M – April 29, 2011, 10:04:10 pm

Why I purchased my MK 8G8D, (I think they were)Gel (3) for my coach ($265.00 ea.) as they recommended against the AGM set.
I know nothing, I have some educated opinions.
Cheers

You're way too modest. One thing for sure is you know how to buy batteries at a righteous price. I'm told you know a thing or two about gensets....

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #31 – April 30, 2011, 12:19:10 am

Chuck,
It is simple, Have been in the emergency generator field for 40+ years and as for batteries, yes, we buy hundreds per year for last 27 years. The supplier and I have a good understanding and I have asked them many dumb questions for many years.
Point is, they provide me with a few perks either free or cost on the MK's for my mower, tractor, rail car, cars, pickups etc. Maybe they enjoy my business and prompt correct payment every month way before the due date.
We get into many deep discussions about battery care and feeding etc.
They being engineers with Exide before they started their very successful battery wholesale outlet, I must trust their opinion, I am too uneducated to question it.
As mentioned, I have an educated opinion only, What do you expect from an 8th grade drop out .

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #32 – April 30, 2011, 11:14:00 pm

Quote from: Dave M – April 29, 2011, 10:04:10 pm

JD, I fully agree on the opinions and ideas are what makes this such an interesting forum. I enjoy bating ideas around, it helps me form MY opinions.
My sole source for battery info is from two ex Exide Battery engineers who started their own wholesale business, where my company has purchased many hundreds of batteries over the past 27 years. I keep asking them some rare questions, they wonder where I come up with all this stuff. I tell them from the Foretravel Forum, they jusr roll their eyes .
Anyway, we get into some deep talks about batteries. Why I purchased my MK 8G8D, (I think they were)Gel (3) for my coach ($265.00 ea.) as they recommended against the AGM set.
I know nothing, I have some educated opinions.
Cheers

Dave, if you can purchase 8D Gels for that price, there are probably plenty of us that would be happy to give you a reasonable mark up and still pay shipping. Or, if you don't want to mess with it, ask your distributor to develop a Foreforums price. If they are that competitive, there are quite a few of us that would go to the extra effort to order from them.

And don't give us that dumb old country boy routine. Your knowledge and expertise have been well demonstrated on this forum. Books don't make you smart, God does that.

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #33 – May 01, 2011, 05:32:23 am

Kent, You give me way too much credit. As for the pricing on the 8D gels, I need to go back and check, but I think I misspoke on the price, I feel it was $365.00. I also misstated the number of batteries we sell a month, it is more like 40-50+ a month.
We sell mostly Group 24, 26, 27, 31, 4D, 4DFord. & 8D. plus some specials like 8 volt for some 24 and 32 Volt setups.

I am busy trying to keep up with the generator business and between sneaking out every few months for a few weeks on the road, frankly I ain't got no time for batteries.

Cheers

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #34 – May 01, 2011, 12:46:29 pm

My Nanopulser arrived in the mail yesterday, and I started a pre-nano test run. I am discharging the house batteries at a constant 12A rate, and will keep this up until the battery voltage dips noticably from the 12.8 volt range, taking voltage and current readings at convenient intervals. After this is done, I will install the Nanopulser, let the batteries recharge and float for a couple of weeks, then re-run the test.

The device is physically small, runs at 10,000Hz, and is powered by the battery. Any pulses it supplies must be very narrow impulses, with minimal energy content. The spikes most likely run both positive and negative. I cannot see them being harmful to the battery, and I'll know in a couple of weeks if they are helpful.

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #35 – May 01, 2011, 12:53:19 pm

Tom, During all the conflab here, I forgot if your playing with Gel, AGM or Flooded type batteries ?
Thanks

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #36 – May 01, 2011, 01:52:57 pm

Gel

I am now about 22 hours into my pre-nanopulser test run, and the voltage is down to 12.55 volts under nearly constant 12A load. According to the information at this site:

Deep Cycle Battery FAQ

I am still at 90% of full capacity (maybe, maybe not). If true, not bad for 8 year old batteries. I plan to continue draining the batteries until they reach 12.3 volts, which should be around 1/3 discharged. At that time, I will do an approximate calculation of the current Amp-hour capacity of my elderly batteries and start the second phase of my test.

Tom

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #37 – May 01, 2011, 02:15:28 pm

I found another source of information on state of charge vs. voltage here:

http://www.scubaengineer.com/documents/lead_acid_battery_charging_graphs.pdf

This site includes a set of curves showing SOC vs. voltage at various discharge rates. I am discharging around C/50, which places my test between the closely-spaced C/100 and C/20 curves. This gives more realistic results, with my current (after 22 hours) SOC at 12.55 volts being around 60~70%.

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #38 – May 02, 2011, 02:01:19 am

This should be my last report for a few weeks. I discharged the three 8D gel house batteries to the 505 level. After fully charging the batteries, I turned the charger off and added loads until the current draw was 11.8A, measured with a clamp-on ammeter. I watched the voltage rapidly drop from the surface charge level of 13.31 volts to 12.89 volts, then slowly drop to 12.42 volts. This should be pretty close to the 50% state charge level according to the chart. the current draw varied from 11.8A to 11.4A as the voltage decreased. I calculate the total Amp-Hours used as 307. If this is indeed the 505 level, the total A-H of the three 8D batteries would be 614A-H, or 205AH per 8D battery. Not too bad considering they are rated at 225AH new and these are eight years old. This makes me feel pretty good about the health of the batteries.

I'll re-run the test after the batteries fully charge again, this time with the Nanopulser working. I'll give the Nanopulser a few weeks to work it's magic, then see if the batteries are any better (or worse) for the experience.

By the way, I feel good about knowing just how healthy (or not) my batteries are. I recommend everyone run a test like this once in a while so you won't get caught offguard when the batteries die at the wrong time (is there a right time?). Just not too often or to too low a state of charge, as deep discharge cycles age the batteries.

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #39 – May 02, 2011, 06:40:25 am

Tom,
Very impressive report. Thank you. I look forward to reading what you find out in a few weeks.

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #40 – June 23, 2011, 04:35:01 pm

Here's the follow-up report I promised.

The Nanopulser had been installed and the coach sitting with the charger charging for six weeks. Any good done by the Nanopulser should have been done by now.

I re-ran the tests, and the results are for all intents and purposes identical to the results six weeks ago.

The device may help if the batteries are showing their age, and it may prevent them from showing their age as soon as otherwiise. But in my case, the eight-year-old batteries were 90% as good as new before the Nanopulser, and are still 90% as good as new with the Nanopulser. It would be asking too much to achieve 100% at this point, even it I could tell the difference.

Tom

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #41 – June 23, 2011, 06:07:59 pm

Tom, still excellent information. Do you think the nano is worth the investment? My house batteries are 7 years old so its good to know they may still have some good life left.

What device did you use to test the amp draw? I have an induction meter but it is for AC voltage. I can't seem to get it to work with DC.

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #42 – June 23, 2011, 07:00:27 pm

Unfortunately, I have no good way to know if the nano really does any good. That is, unless I get 20 years out of the oriiginal batteries. I don't suspect any harm, and will keep the device.

I used an AC/DC clamp-on ammeter and turned on enough lights to reach the desired load.

I must say that I am pleased that this experiment allowed me to run a confidence test on the batteries. Before the test, I was concerned that my old batteries might let me down some cold winter night. Now I feel they are close enough to like-new to last for quite some time.

I think a test like I ran would be a good thing to do on an annual basis. I plotted the cumulative amp-hours used and also the cumulative watt-hours used vs. voltage and compared the curves from my two test runs. They were virtually identical. I'll do the same again next year and see how the batteries have aged.

Tom

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #43 – June 23, 2011, 07:39:48 pm

Tom,
Nicely done.

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Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #25 – April 29, 2011, 09:07:07 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #26 – April 29, 2011, 09:23:55 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #27 – April 29, 2011, 09:25:48 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #28 – April 29, 2011, 09:32:10 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #29 – April 29, 2011, 10:04:10 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #30 – April 29, 2011, 11:31:14 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #31 – April 30, 2011, 12:19:10 am

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #32 – April 30, 2011, 11:14:00 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #33 – May 01, 2011, 05:32:23 am

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #34 – May 01, 2011, 12:46:29 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #35 – May 01, 2011, 12:53:19 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #36 – May 01, 2011, 01:52:57 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #37 – May 01, 2011, 02:15:28 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #38 – May 02, 2011, 02:01:19 am

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #39 – May 02, 2011, 06:40:25 am

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #40 – June 23, 2011, 04:35:01 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #41 – June 23, 2011, 06:07:59 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #42 – June 23, 2011, 07:00:27 pm

Re: Nanopulser ???

Reply #43 – June 23, 2011, 07:39:48 pm

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