Skip to main content
Topic: Engine Won't Start!!! (Read 2655 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #50
With all the testing, was that the first time you engauged the BOOST ?

No... the first thing I did was engage the boost. Then I started the generator, and let it charge for a few hours, then tried it again. Nada 'til this afternoon.

Craig
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #51
Quote
Or it likes it when my wife touches it. 

That's it Craig.

We'll remind you the next time you have a problem. ;)
Michael j
Livermore, Ca for now

1987  Grand Villa 2900 Rear Bath Front 460 Gas Engine.

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #52
On my 84 ored the start system solenoid that is mounted to the frame would sometimes do what you described. I replaced it and no more problems. When I was in a parking lot and would not start and was 1500 miles from home I crawled under the coach and jumped the solenoid on the starter.
previous 1984 35 ft ORED 250 HP 3208 Cat       
previous 1998 40 ft U295 CAI 325 hp Cummins
previous 2003 40 Ft u320 build #6140 450 Cummins M11.                                                         
1999 Mazda Miata
Ron, Nancy, Tipper the cat, Max The dog
1997 U 270 36 ft build number 5174 8.3 Cummins

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #53
Craig,

Ironically, the same thing happened to me yesterday.  We drove up to the factory in Nacogdoches from Lake Charles stopping in Jasper, Tx for fuel with no problem.  Stopped in front and went in the service dept and talked to Josh about service for Monday.  When I  tried to start up to move to the to the campground.........nothing! 

I went back in and told Josh.  He found Alton the shop foreman and he asked me if I had tried starting with the boost switch on.  We went back and I tried starting with the boost on and it fired right up.  Alton was standing at the back of the coach and said he knew it would start because he could hear all of the relays.  No problem since then as it started today but
I will be replacing the dash solenoid as it has been acting up.  The heat/AC blower has been going off and on at times when running and the remote start wouldn't work when the solenoid was acting up as Alton confirmed.  I had tightened up the lugs and ground before leaving on this trip and everything was fine till I arrived here.  Don't know why it worked, but having both battery banks tied together fixed the electrical gremlin.

The no start did happen once before while parked in my driveway but I think I had the boost on without realizing it. 

Good luck with yours,

Jerry aka Murph
The selected media item is not currently available.
Jerry and Cindy Maddux
1993 U300/36WTBI DD6v92TA
build 4271  "Miss Lou"
1995 suzuki sidekick 4x4 toad
Gulfport, Ms

"Pride of Ownership"

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #54
Larry B sells heavy duty starter solenoid contacts for the 5.9.  If your engine has over 100K miles on it, I'd replace them.  This is a known issue and behavior.  If that's the problem, the no-starts will only become more frequent.
Regards,
Brett

'99 42' Foretravel Xtreme
'14 Brown Motorsports Stacker
'05 Chevy SSR
'02 BMW R1150R

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #55
Larry B sells heavy duty starter solenoid contacts for the 5.9.  If your engine has over 100K miles on it, I'd replace them.  This is a known issue and behavior.  If that's the problem, the no-starts will only become more frequent.

Yes... I am beginning to lean towards the starter solenoid as the culprit. Do you have a link to his heavy-duty contacts?

Craig

1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #56
Craig,

When a starter solenoid starts to go, I have often bridged the hot side to the small solenoid switch terminal to get it running. It gets full voltage that way but when the ignition switch start position is activated, the voltage is less and a failing solenoid will only click a lot of the time.

Piere
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #57
Larrybs.com
The selected media item is not currently available.Bill&Doris 97 U270 36'
University of Parris Island Class of 66
Semper Fi  Build# 5174 MC#17094

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #58
I think that your batteries at 12.7 volts are to low. They should be over 13 volts fully charged.

I know that on our work boats that have not been run in a week or so, will not start on anything less than 12.9 volts.

The batteries get run down by all the electronics that required a small draw to keep the computer memories alive.
Don

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #59

Amos and Bill... thanks. Handy site.

Now my question is: did Foretravel use the same starters as Dodge did on the 5.9 engine?

Craig
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #60
Craig,
I am not sure if Dodge and FT used the same starter.  I somewhat doubt it.  One uses a torqueflite trans and the FT uses an Allison and while they could use the same flywheel I don't think they did.
I would look for a local Generator shop and have the original rebuilt.  This way you know what you got when you get it bolted back on.
Jerry & Nanci
1999 U270 34'WTFI
2011 Malibu
A smart man knows what to say, a wise man knows when to say it.

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #61
Craig  ----  Ghost of Christmas past????  ----  Have a great day  ----  Fritz
Fritz & Kathy Johnson
1991 36'

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #62
.....................I think that your batteries at 12.7 volts are to low. They should be over 13 volts fully charged..................

Craig,

If your voltmeter is accurate and you are measuring an open circuit, your 12.7Vdc is good.
Lead Acid design is Lead Acid design.
State of Charge (SOC) relationship is as follows:

WET Cell State of Charge, as a measure of
Specific Gravity and Open-Circuit Voltage


 
     
PercentageCharge Open Circuit Voltage
SOCSpecific  GravityCell 6 Volt 12 Volt36 Volt
     
1001.2772.1226.3712.7338.20
901.2582.1036.3112.6237.85
801.2382.0836.2512.5037.49
701.2172.0626.1912.3737.12
601.1952.0406.1212.2436.72
501.1722.0176.0512.1036.31
401.1481.9935.9811.9635.87
301.1241.9695.9111.8135.44
201.0981.9435.8311.6634.97
101.0731.9185.7511.5134.52
Best practice (even with deep discharge battery designs) dictates not discharging below 50% SOC and not leaving a battery discharged any longer than necessary.  Shallow discharges and slow recharges to 100% SOC, with a multi-step, smart charger specifically designed for the particular Wet, Gel or AGM battery design, will greatly extend a battery's useful cycles and lifetime.

Much misinformation and many don't understand or practice this.  Voltmeter inaccuracies and misinterpreting "surface" charges when batteries are read with high impedance instruments, also factor into the misunderstanding.

The format gets messed up, trying to copy into the post..............sorry.  The attached MS Excel document should be good.

Hope this helps, Happy New Year,

Neal

The selected media item is not currently available.
Neal (& Brenda) Pillsbury
'02 U320 SPEC, 4200, DGFE, Build #5984
'04 Gold Wing
'07 Featherlite 24'
'14 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit
MC #14494
Exeter, NH & LaBelle FL
Quality makes the Heart Soar long after Price is Forgotten

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #63
Craig,
I am not sure if Dodge and FT used the same starter.  I somewhat doubt it.  One uses a torqueflite trans and the FT uses an Allison and while they could use the same flywheel I don't think they did.
I would look for a local Generator shop and have the original rebuilt.  This way you know what you got when you get it bolted back on.

Yes... rebuilding it at a generator shop sounds like good advice. When I was trying to find a starter/solenoid pair and looking at the available units, practically everything was for the 5.9L engine and Dodge. The photos looked a little like the unit we have, but not exactly like it.

Thanks,
Craig :)

1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #64
Craig,

If your voltmeter is accurate and you are measuring an open circuit, your 12.7Vdc is good.
Lead Acid design is Lead Acid design.
State of Charge (SOC) relationship is as follows:

WET Cell State of Charge, as a measure of
Specific Gravity and Open-Circuit Voltage


Neal... actually it was good enough to understand but I saved the spreadsheet anyway. I was pretty sure that 12.7 was a good voltage.

I've let the start battery sit since yesterday... tomorrow morning I'll check it. Should be no surface charge and not much to drain it. I'll see what it says. But I still suspect the starter solenoig since it was so quick to start yesterday... and also quick to start when we moved it from the shop over to the SnB and shut it off. 45 minutes later it wouldn't do anything.

Also... interesting... Sue said she did not feel the solenoid activate when I started the engine. But she might have been a bit jumpy. :P

Craig

 
     
PercentageCharge Open Circuit Voltage
SOCSpecific  GravityCell 6 Volt 12 Volt36 Volt
     
1001.2772.1226.3712.7338.20
901.2582.1036.3112.6237.85
801.2382.0836.2512.5037.49
701.2172.0626.1912.3737.12
601.1952.0406.1212.2436.72
501.1722.0176.0512.1036.31
401.1481.9935.9811.9635.87
301.1241.9695.9111.8135.44
201.0981.9435.8311.6634.97
101.0731.9185.7511.5134.52
Best practice (even with deep discharge battery designs) dictates not discharging below 50% SOC and not leaving a battery discharged any longer than necessary.  Shallow discharges and slow recharges to 100% SOC, with a multi-step, smart charger specifically designed for the particular Wet, Gel or AGM battery design, will greatly extend a battery's useful cycles and lifetime.

Much misinformation and many don't understand or practice this.  Voltmeter inaccuracies and misinterpreting "surface" charges when batteries are read with high impedance instruments, also factor into the misunderstanding.

The format gets messed up, trying to copy into the post..............sorry.  The attached MS Excel document should be good.

Hope this helps, Happy New Year,

Neal
[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #65
Craig,
Had a big John Deere diesel that occasionally didn't like to start.
The starter mounted solenoid would sometimes hang up.  Before we had the starter/solenoid rebuilt, the "secret" was to keep hitting the solenoid with inrush current (keep rapidly turning the ignition key on and off, 5 or six times or as necessary).  That worked until the fall crops were in.  Then someone discovered that "percussive persuasion" (hammer taps) worked just as well.
A starter solenoid fires so fast and is so coincident with the starter turning, one normally can't feel the solenoid "click", so I'm not at all surprised that your wife didn't feel it "click".  Sure sounds like a sticky solenoid or a solenoid that is only intermittently getting enough current flow through its coil to throw (engage) it.
I had to have my coach starter/solenoid rebuilt by a reputable alternator/generator shop in NH after my Parliment service experience.  The shop did all of the work right on their premises, professed that they did work far superior to a Remanufacturing facility and they gave a "lifetime" (of my ownership) warranty.  It has worked fine ever since.
Best wishes,
Neal
The selected media item is not currently available.
Neal (& Brenda) Pillsbury
'02 U320 SPEC, 4200, DGFE, Build #5984
'04 Gold Wing
'07 Featherlite 24'
'14 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit
MC #14494
Exeter, NH & LaBelle FL
Quality makes the Heart Soar long after Price is Forgotten

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #66
Percussive maintenance was the first trick out of my bag having been brought up on 1940s cars and pickup trucks. But either we did not "percuss" hard enough, or something else is going on.

Oddly enough, gentle stroking was more effective. :P

Craig
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #67
I would still suspect the solenoid that applies the power to the starter solenoid. It is a lot cheaper than the starter rebuild which might not be the problem, although rebuilding the starter can not hurt anything. This small solenoid is activated by the ignition switch and has a larger wire to the starter solenoid to give it enough power to pull the coil in and engage the starter
previous 1984 35 ft ORED 250 HP 3208 Cat       
previous 1998 40 ft U295 CAI 325 hp Cummins
previous 2003 40 Ft u320 build #6140 450 Cummins M11.                                                         
1999 Mazda Miata
Ron, Nancy, Tipper the cat, Max The dog
1997 U 270 36 ft build number 5174 8.3 Cummins

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #68
After 50 years of playing the rebuild starter shops, found buying a NEW starter is the economic and labor Saving cheerful end,  too many shops only make it work, not actual rebuild, so in short time your back with an issue.
We have found 1 shop that actually rebuild them, however they sometimes recommend a new replacement due to cost of correct rebuild.
Being cheap can leave one in a jam ;D


Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #69
As the "Pigs In Space" intro went... the "continuing stoooory".... uh.... continues...

I went to the shop to turn the "boost" switch on. Noticed that the voltage on the start battery (measured by the TM-2025) was 12.5vdc and thought to myself that I should see if the engine will start at that indicated voltage.

It did. Right away.

Craig
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #70
I still say replace the frame mounted starter relay to the starter. Just from my experience it will leave you sitting again, just a matter of time. I used to carry a jumper wire with me until I changed it on our coach the 84 ored. Just go from the positive post on the starter to the small wire on the starter solenoid and would crank right over and start if the ignition switch was turned on.
previous 1984 35 ft ORED 250 HP 3208 Cat       
previous 1998 40 ft U295 CAI 325 hp Cummins
previous 2003 40 Ft u320 build #6140 450 Cummins M11.                                                         
1999 Mazda Miata
Ron, Nancy, Tipper the cat, Max The dog
1997 U 270 36 ft build number 5174 8.3 Cummins

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #71
I still say replace the frame mounted starter relay to the starter. Just from my experience it will leave you sitting again, just a matter of time. I used to carry a jumper wire with me until I changed it on our coach the 84 ored. Just go from the positive post on the starter to the small wire on the starter solenoid and would crank right over and start if the ignition switch was turned on.

There is yet-another solenoid? I know about the one in the dash and the one on the top of the starter motor. Where is the one you're talking about?

Craig
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #72
Craig,

Some engines were fitted with a remote solenoid so the cable to the engine located solenoid was not hot all the time. The small engine starter solenoid terminal is jumped (usually with a fair sized shunt) to the larger supply terminal and when the remote solenoid is triggered, the engine would start normally. Remote solenoid remains cool all the time. See an example in the attachment below.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #73
It should be located fairly close to the starter I would say within 3-4 feet. Follow the small wire to the starter solenoid on top of the starter and you should find it mounted on the frame rail. On the 0red I could tell you where it was located, but do not remember where it is mounted on the u225. It looks like the one under the dash.
previous 1984 35 ft ORED 250 HP 3208 Cat       
previous 1998 40 ft U295 CAI 325 hp Cummins
previous 2003 40 Ft u320 build #6140 450 Cummins M11.                                                         
1999 Mazda Miata
Ron, Nancy, Tipper the cat, Max The dog
1997 U 270 36 ft build number 5174 8.3 Cummins

 

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #74
Okay... looks like I'll have to prowl around under the engine again. I might wait for warmer weather. LOL

Thanks for the tips.

Craig
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."