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Topic: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?) (Read 1233 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #25 –
Quote from: fouroureye –
Stump, read this looks good. Says it will heat water and blow warm air at the same time ^.^d

For sure worth looking into, for an upgrade. ^.^d
The heater I have in my Semi is just a little smaller than a shoe box. The burner intake and exhaust are outside it has a draft inducer motor that also is the blower. It modulates as the temp comes up inside the cab the blower slows down to almost nothing. If the temp drops it will speed up and until the temp is satisfied. It probably burns a pint of diesel in a 10 hr period. Very very efficient the exhaust tube is stainless steel and the exit gasses are luke warm. Maby just cooler than a dryer vent a home.
Here is a video of the Hydronic model:http://www.espar.com/videos/hydronic-tech-info.html
91 GV U300 Unihome 40' Build 3811
6V92TA Detroit

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #26 –
I was told that my 6V92 has the plate to mount the lower right side heater but it would be very close to the compressor without changing the A/C bracket. The Detroit shop said the heater would work much better in the lower configuration and suggested that if I was going to be in cold weather very much to make that change. There are different heaters for each location. The cost of the electric heaters are each about $90 and both are 1500 watts.

I have started my coach twice at 10 degrees F with the heater on all night. It took several tries and I only ran the starter 10 to 15 seconds then let it rest for a couple of minutes. It was very slow to get rolling but it did finally start about the fifth try and it didn't hurt any of the wires or connections. I have started the coach a number of times when the temps were in the twenties but again I had the upper block heater on all night.

And Pierce you are so right. The concern that the Forest Service will think it is a forest fire is always a concern. It put out copious amounts of white smoke for a very long time.

The big problem is when there is no electric hookup. So far I have always found a camp site with electric in the cold weather, but I guess I could use the generator over night in a worst case scenario.
The selected media item is not currently available.Kent Speers
Locust Grove, OK
1993 U300 SSE 40' (Restored at FOT 2009) Build 4323
720 watts Solar
6V92TA DDEC Silver Engine
2014 Subaru Outback

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #27 –
Quote from: Kent Speers –
I have started my coach twice at 10 degrees F with the heater on all night. It took several tries and I only ran the starter 10 to 15 seconds then let it rest for a couple of minutes. It was very slow to get rolling but it did finally start about the fifth try and it didn't hurt
And Pierce you are so right. The concern that the Forest Service will think it is a forest fire is always a concern. It put out copious amounts of white smoke for a very long time.
The big problem is when there is no electric hookup. So far I have always found a camp site with electric in the cold weather, but I guess I could use the generator over night in a worst case scenario.

Exactly. Early in the morning when there is no wind, the smoke just spreads out until it covers a couple of acres. I hate thinking about it all the time. There is already enough RV angst to go around and with some National Parks filling their campgrounds fairly early in the morning, the early bird gets the worm as far as a spot goes. Our mid-teens with snow was in summer at 8000 feet. After the block heater less start, we went over the hill to the Mammoth campground a couple of thousand feet lower. Many campgrounds have generator hours that start at 8am.

The links to the diesel engine block heaters or a combination coolant/air heater are good. The problem I see here is the price. They are not cheap but if within the budget, a better alternative to the 110V heater we have now. I decided to try my hand at the tankless installation as it was small, 55,000 BTUs and could do double duty as a block heater and a replacement to the rear furnace. I bought a 12V high temperature pump but may be able to use the stock booster pump that moves coolant up to the dash. The small pump I purchased only draws 2 amps so may be a better choice. With the existing coolant line to the OEM water heater just several inches away, I only have to run one return line. Separate lines with valves will have to be installed to route the water to the rear cabin's new heat exchanger where the old furnace was. With 55K BTUs, I can see a cold start within 30 minutes in freezing weather.

Before a trip, it's a good idea to turn on the OEM block heater and several minutes later, feel the area to make sure it's working. Just because the switch lights up, does not mean the heater is doing it's job.

Photos to follow later this week.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #28 –
Quote from: Dave M –
Tom,  does your DDC have the blower bypass valve & aluminum valvecovers with the data plates attached ?
Would be very expensive changing from a pre silver to a silver
Dave, the PO did the upgrade so I'm not sure what was done or how much it cost. I haven't looked into the engine that far yet. It does have aluminum valve covers but it has Jakes too so the valve covers are way higher than normal. It gets on down the highway pretty good for a 43K coach.

TOM
SOB (Some Other Brand) division
1995 Wanderlodge WB40
8V92 :D

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #29 –
For cold weather boondocking I bought a Mr Heater "Buddy" propane powered radiant heater at WallyWorld last winter. It's small enough to put underneath my coach's oil pan, or up beside the oil pan sitting on top of a block of wood on the ground. I've never actually used it to start my coach but it did a great job placed on the curb beside my motorcycle shining radiant heat onto the crankcase. My motorcycle is kick start only and it refused to start on several occasions last winter, even rolling it down a hill and popping the clutch. This was with synthetic 10W40 oil in it! The Buddy heater can be run from a disposable propane cylinder internally, or from a barbecue bottle, or even from your coach's propane tank with a hose and adapter. It has a carbon monoxide shutoff and a tip over shutoff, so you can use it to heat the inside of your coach when boondocking, which I did do last winter while camping in the parking lot at work overnight during the big snowstorms. In really extreme cold weather you could use the Buddy heater to warm up your genset enough to get it started, then warm up your main engine until it starts... Hey, you gotta be prepared! ;D
Scott Cook
1991 U300 36' 6V92TA
Old Town Penobscot 16
1984 Honda VF1100C (V65 Magna)

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #30 –
Good Morning, I went over to the Coach and took a few pictures of my AC unit and my block heater John ask me to post some so here they are. Hope this helps
Andy & Eileen
MONTROSE COLORADO
1992 U300  40' 6V92 TA
2016 4 Runner
1998 Jeep Grand cherokee

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee) Build # 4135 Skp# 122921

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #31 –
Hmmm, I replaced my dead electric heater last winter. The engine-driven a/c has never worked according to the PO, and we generally run the generator if it is warm enough to want a/c anyway. Maybe I should have just taken the compressor off and put a heater down lower where it would do more good. I've run the block heater all night, too, a time or two.

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #32 –
David,

Make sure the block casting is open for a heater before you buy one. Be sure to flip the switch off before you crank the engine. Only takes a short time in an air bubble to ruin it.

Tank type are about the same price and will work better with only a little plumbing involved: tank type block heater | eBay

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #33 –
Quote from: Andy 2 –
Good Morning, I went over to the Coach and took a few pictures of my AC unit and my block heater John ask me to post some so here they are. Hope this helps
Thanks Andy,
It looks like you can put in a block heater on the A/C compressor bracket after all.  I just looked at mine and I have the same bracket, just not block heater in the middle of it like yours.
I guess your PO already figured all of this out.  Thanks again.
John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #34 –
Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart –
David,

Make sure the block casting is open for a heater before you buy one. Be sure to flip the switch off before you crank the engine. Only takes a short time in an air bubble to ruin it.

Tank type are about the same price and will work better with only a little plumbing involved: tank type block heater | eBay

Pierce

Pierce,
Have you figured out the plumbing so the flow goes through the block when the thermostats are closed on each head?
My understanding our thermostats are like a three way valve and allow the water pump to circulates coolant through the engine and bypass the radiator.  So a recirculating heater would need to plumbed so it doesn't get shut-out by the thermostats.  Maybe I'm mistaken and thinking about it wrong?
John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #35 –
John,

Going to start installation in a couple of days of the tankless. Will use one existing line that goes from the engine to the OEM water heater's heat exchanger and bring back the return line probably to the one of the cylinder heads. Hopefully, I can go from head/side of the block to the other without interference from the thermostats. I could "Y" out of the engine and then back in if necessary. Will see in a couple of days.

The second part is to install a couple of valves so I can deliver water to where the rear furnace is. If that goes well, the front furnace is next.

Photos as I go.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #36 –
This sounds like a good upgrade that will be interesting to follow.  It raises a question for me about the potential for using what we already have for a similar but less effective option.  Since our current water heater will heat the tank with a coil of engine coolant, could any benefit be gained by installing a small circulation pump on the existing system that reverses the heat transfer from the water heater to the coolant loop?  Similar to what an Aquahot does.  Could that not help to raise the engine temp a few degrees with propane when the electric block heater is not available?  It's probably a much less efficient option but would it work at all?  As I think about it, it seems like the result might be a couple of degrees increase in engine temp with no hot water for a shower in the morning and a lot less propane in the tank.  Has anyone ever tried it?

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #37 –
BDale,

All of our water heaters don't have the heat exchanger from the engine. To check if it does, open the compartment door and there should be a coolant valve with a round tag on it below the heater on the left side. The tag will say, "to the dash heat" or something like that. If you use a mirror, the hose connections can be seen on the rear of the Atwood as well.  When the aux pump is turned on with the switch on the instrument panel, the pump below the PS tank in the engine compartment comes on and sends water to the front dash heater with a side trip through the Atwood water heater's heat exchanger. Yes, it would seem that if the flow of water could be reversed or a valve and a direct return hose installed, the engine could be warmed to a certain extent from the OEM water heater.

The small, high temperature pump I purchased (ebay-$25) could be put in the line and possibly reverse the flow back to the engine. The dash heater valve would have to be in the on position to allow coolant to flow through it and make the complete loop. The new pump draws 2 amps so could run all night. The aux pump is much larger and probably draws too many amps to run all night.

The main potable water tank is behind the water heater, pump and accumulator tank. The grey and black water tanks can be seen along with the liquid level senders behind the carpeted panel just to the rear of the OEM water heater.

Much of this is speculation and more will be understood as the project goes along. All above info applies to our U300 and may be only partially relevant to other models.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #38 –
I do have the heat exchanger loop that provides water heater & dash heat but I'm not aware of any auxilliary pump switch on my instrument panel.  As far as I know, all of my coolant circulation is provided by a pump in the hydraulic system.  I think my engine has to be running to circulate any coolant.  I will try to look for that switch and, if I have it, will test the amp draw of that pump.

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #39 –
Quote from: bdale –
Since our current water heater will heat the tank with a coil of engine coolant, could any benefit be gained by installing a small circulation pump on the existing system that reverses the heat transfer from the water heater to the coolant loop?  Similar to what an Aquahot does.  Could that not help to raise the engine temp a few degrees with propane when the electric block heater is not available?  It's probably a much less efficient option but would it work at all?  As I think about it, it seems like the result might be a couple of degrees increase in engine temp with no hot water for a shower in the morning and a lot less propane in the tank.  Has anyone ever tried it?
I tried it once in single digit temperatures.  I ran the aux pump (had to have the ignition on) with water heater on for about an hour.  I didn't see any increase in temperature on the dash gauge (and it's digital).
I don't think Cummins engines need the extra coolant pump.  I've only heard of them on the Detroit 6V92s.
John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #40 –
I ran across this company at work; HotStart.  HOTSTART Engine Heating | Preheater Design & Manufacturing Leader  They specialize in engine heaters.
Their general catalog lists block heaters for all kinds of engines, but page 50 talks about wattage required: 3 watts for each cubic inch of displacement.
Also says "V" engines should use forced circulation systems - same thing Pierce is talking about doing.  I found it interesting (in a conflicting way) because they do make block heaters for V92's (page 42).  I do think a circulation system would distribute the heat to all cylinders better - the goal is to get ALL the cylinders warm not just one or two hot.
http://www.hotstart.com/assets/Catalog-documents/IMC700-7-2014.pdf

John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #41 –
John,

The aux pump is only for the dash heater and will just boost the temperature coming out of the vents onto the windshield or driver/passenger so it's higher (less time for conduction/radiation loss on it's journey forward) and arrives faster than would normally be the case. Quite a few cars use them also. Sort of a "perk."

By the time the warmer coolant from the heat exchanger is forced by the aux pump up to the front of the coach, through the heater heat exchanger (trying to remember but think it's on the outside of the front bulkhead where it is cold in winter) and then back to the engine, there is not much more than lukewarm coolant there. Now, if you could take the coolant that has been warmed by the water heater exchanger and send it the 10 feet or so directly back to the engine, it could do some good. Not that it's going to work like a good block heater but if left on all night, think it would aid starting in the morning. Our Detroits don't have a heated intake screen like some others or glow plugs like the generator so every few degrees help.

Another possibility would be to install a much larger heat exchanger under the existing water heater, pump hot water from the OEM water heater through it and then send the coolant directly to the engine. If you got rid of the accumulator, you could install the heat exchanger in the available space. This way, you would use a larger percentage of the 12K BTU water heater to the engine. The way I am doing it will send just about all the 55K BTU output from the tankless heater directly to the engine for a rapid rise in temperature. (hopefully :) )

In ending, our 6 gallon water heaters are 12,000 BTU so if you could utilize 50% of that and send it to the engine, it would only be about 12% of the 55K BTU tankless water heater I am installing. Our furnaces are about 35K BTU so the tankless output may be able to replace the propane furnaces with heat exchangers, still burning propane but in a far quieter location.

Good topic!!

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)
 

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #42 –
Hey guys how about a forced air propane heater like the Red Dragon?

They say it can be used on any engine and bush pilots have used them for over 30 years.  This 12 volt model is small and portable and I wonder if it could be mounted on a shelf in the engine bay and plumbed into the existing gas system eliminating a separate bottle.  Would a 49000 btu forced air output in the right spot be enough heat to do the job?  It uses about 1/2 gal an hour and has a high limit heat sensor.  This one is a little pricey but is built very well built with a lot of safety features. Cheaper on ebay, etc.     

I love this forum for throwing ideas around for mods and upgrades!  :thumbsup:

Jerry aka Murph

12 volt D.C. Preheater with carrying case Model LT2-12MH-200C - Flame
The selected media item is not currently available.
Jerry and Cindy Maddux
1993 U300/36WTBI DD6v92TA
build 4271  "Miss Lou"
1995 suzuki sidekick 4x4 toad
Gulfport, Ms

"Pride of Ownership"