Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Topic: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?) (Read 1233 times) previous topic - next topic

Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

August 23, 2014, 10:47:53 am

After reading Scott's post, yes, the Detroits need a block heater at high elevations and cold weather but not because of being a 2-cycle. They don't have the air intake hot screens that other engines may have. I am now installing a tankless propane heater and 12V pump to heat and circulate coolant through the engine. Will also plumb it to replace the rear cabin furnace. Essentially, an AquaHot without the maintenance issues (hopefully).

Pierce

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #1 – August 23, 2014, 10:56:07 am

Pierce, please start your topic on your mod. I want to follow it

Great idea, so heat exchanger in place of the furnace (s). Hmmm venting, deflector?

Thermostat, guess that can change. That looks like a small unit, is it a commercial, not your typical rv?

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #2 – August 23, 2014, 11:11:55 am

John,

Will start a post after I get it further along. It is a stainless, 8 liter/minute model. I also purchased a 12V hot water pump ($24) to pump the water through the existing hose (coolant, not potable water) going to the OEM water heater from the engine. I could have gone with a larger model but will try this one first. An additional door like the OEM heater will be installed in the door for access and venting. With the carpet lined separator removed and a thinner replacement installed, there is room to install it next to the other heater. If this works out OK, I will replace the OEM with a matching tankless. See heater at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=151164521851&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

I negotiated with the seller and got it delivered from a U.S. location in 3 days for $88 out the door.

I can't stand the loud heaters in the coach so hope this does the job.

Pierce

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #3 – August 23, 2014, 12:26:38 pm

Quote from: RRadio – August 23, 2014, 11:31:00 am

The oil is what needs to be heated up to get the two cycle engine to start in cold weather. Sometimes I have a tough time getting mine started even with the block heater on because it only heats the water, not the oil, which is down in the pan. Trying to crank thick 40 weight oil when it's cold is very difficult, even if the engine has warm water in it.

Scott,

Suspect your cranking problem in cold weather is cable or battery related. We also have #40 oil and in the teens in Yellowstone, the engine spun about as fast as in warm weather and without a block heater (burned out), it eventually started killing all mosquitos in the neighborhood. Good batteries with cable ends cleaned and flattened along with clean posts and connectors make a big difference. I like the military type connectors that Ken installed on their U300. A voltage check at the battery vs starter motor while cranking is a good indication of starting system health.

Santa Barbara is at sea level but our mechanical Detroits started within a tenth of a second even in winter with no block heater. Also used #40 oil.

We almost always dry camp so any type of electric oil or block heater is out.

Pierce

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #4 – August 29, 2014, 02:08:34 pm

Pierce,
I have been thinking about this type of heating system for awhile now... I will be extremely interested in following your progress on this project! Sometime ago, I read an article (I think it was FMC magazine) about propane hydronic heaters that are being used in some of the new Class B's and C's that (I think) are made in Sweden. That got me thinking about the roll your own hydronic system that would be inserted into the motor aid loop (coolant) to add coolant preheating as well as cabin heat via lex tubing with valves and manifold.
Keep us updated! If anybody can craft a "Fire Department" approved heat source, I am sure it would be you...

Don

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – August 23, 2014, 11:11:55 am

John,

Will start a post after I get it further along. It is a stainless, 8 liter/minute model. I also purchased a 12V hot water pump ($24) to pump the water through the existing hose (coolant, not potable water) going to the OEM water heater from the engine. I could have gone with a larger model but will try this one first. An additional door like the OEM heater will be installed in the door for access and venting. With the carpet lined separator removed and a thinner replacement installed, there is room to install it next to the other heater. If this works out OK, I will replace the OEM with a matching tankless. See heater at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=151164521851&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

I negotiated with the seller and got it delivered from a U.S. location in 3 days for $88 out the door.

I can't stand the loud heaters in the coach so hope this does the job.

Pierce

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #5 – August 29, 2014, 07:04:51 pm

Don,

There are a couple of propane fired engine heaters with 12V pumps out there but expensive. We have a fairly large compartment door with the OEM water heater on one side and the twin tanks with a carpet covered panel covering them just on the other side of the small separator. By removing the original panel and substituting a thinner panel, I can get the new tankless to fit. It's not so much the heater but the control knobs that stick out. The advantage of this location is there is already a hose from the engine to a heat exchanger inside the OEM water heater plus propane supply right there. So I can just bring one end into the new tankless and then send another hose back to the engine. With a couple of solenoids, I could also use a heat exchanger where the rear furnace is. Our home tankless makes much less noise than the U300s gas furnace, both inside and out.

The other possibility is to do the same for the front heater with long heat exchangers installed behind the sofa (convection powered) and a powered heat exchanger to force air out the stock outlets up front.

We have a couple of long trips coming up during the winter and want to have plenty of heat as well as starting the Detroit in sub freezing temps in Yellowstone. Since we almost never have shore power, this will be a good alternative.

Will start on the tankless project as soon as the engine compartment is done. I have finished most of it but the sides are hard to reach down to for measuring, installation, etc. I moved the 110V outlet a couple of inches to the other side of the bulkhead for the electric block heater and am running metal electrical conduit with the block heater cord inside. Attached is a photo of the top of the engine compartment. The insulation was in much better condition than I had imagined for everything but the top so just lightly scraped and vacuumed the old plastic covering off and then installed backerboard on top of it. For the top, I installed R19 Fiberglas and compressed it down to 1" with the backerboard. Works well on one short trip so far. I ordered a box of both #14 stainless screws in 2" and 2-1/2" length as well as stainless fender washers 1"ODx3/16"ID. Painted the backerboard with semi-gloss white (latex) so easy to keep clean.

Firemen do put fires out but also have been great off duty arsonists in Boston, Seattle and California's central valley.

Pierce

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #6 – August 29, 2014, 08:43:14 pm

Very interesting ideas for the heat exchangers an expanding the system. I wonder about the BTU capability of the tankless heater to provide enough heat. The attractive thing for me in thinking about this is a system that could provide say 10K BTU continuously to maintain an even temperature (just number pulled out of my imagination mind you, because this is an are that I have never delved into, but will eventually), VS the 35K BTU put out from our single central mounted furnace for short periods of time. As I understand it, you are going to keep your propane water heater for domestic hot water, correct? I believe I could mount a unit like the one you got (seems like a great price by the way!) on the passenger side aft joey bed compartment wall and extend the motor aid heater hoses through the wall to the propane tankless via a manifold. I just would need to figure out away to vent it properly. I have some ideas about that... I am a long ways away from anything but the daydreaming stage right now because I have about 5 major projects to accomplish need time we dock in our home port in San Diego. Let's see... solar, inverter, alternator to battery charge controller, various antenna reconfiguration for on the road internet and cell, battery monitors, cabinetry and desk (cabinets will run all the way from the passenger chair to the pantry), make some drawers, LED interior lights, I just have to live long enough

Don

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – August 29, 2014, 07:04:51 pm

Don,

There are a couple of propane fired engine heaters with 12V pumps out there but expensive. We have a fairly large compartment door with the OEM water heater on one side and the twin tanks with a carpet covered panel covering them just on the other side of the small separator. By removing the original panel and substituting a thinner panel, I can get the new tankless to fit. It's not so much the heater but the control knobs that stick out. The advantage of this location is there is already a hose from the engine to a heat exchanger inside the OEM water heater plus propane supply right there. So I can just bring one end into the new tankless and then send another hose back to the engine. With a couple of solenoids, I could also use a heat exchanger where the rear furnace is. Our home tankless makes much less noise than the U300s gas furnace, both inside and out.

The other possibility is to do the same for the front heater with long heat exchangers installed behind the sofa (convection powered) and a powered heat exchanger to force air out the stock outlets up front.

We have a couple of long trips coming up during the winter and want to have plenty of heat as well as starting the Detroit in sub freezing temps in Yellowstone. Since we almost never have shore power, this will be a good alternative.

Will start on the tankless project as soon as the engine compartment is done. I have finished most of it but the sides are hard to reach down to for measuring, installation, etc. I moved the 110V outlet a couple of inches to the other side of the bulkhead for the electric block heater and am running metal electrical conduit with the block heater cord inside. Attached is a photo of the top of the engine compartment. The insulation was in much better condition than I had imagined for everything but the top so just lightly scraped and vacuumed the old plastic covering off and then installed backerboard on top of it. For the top, I installed R19 Fiberglas and compressed it down to 1" with the backerboard. Works well on one short trip so far. I ordered a box of both #14 stainless screws in 2" and 2-1/2" length as well as stainless fender washers 1"ODx3/16"ID. Painted the backerboard with semi-gloss white (latex) so easy to keep clean.

Firemen do put fires out but also have been great off duty arsonists in Boston, Seattle and California's central valley.

Pierce

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #7 – August 29, 2014, 09:25:39 pm

Don,

The 8 L/m tankless output is 16Kw or about 55,000 BTUs. If it works OK, I will probably go to a 12 L/m unit at 24 Kw/82,000 BTUs and may replace the OEM with one. Unless the manufacturers specs allow it, much of a distance horizontally will require a fan and sail switch wired into the heater.

Pierce

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #8 – August 30, 2014, 09:28:56 am

A less expensive and less time consuming modification would be to utilize the wasted heat from the diesel genset to heat the engine coolant. Just tie the genset's coolant in to the heater hose with valves. The genset should pump its warm coolant through the entire system, including the main engine. The genset can be charging the batteries as it's warming the coolant. You could turn on the defroster to start clearing your windshield too. Of course you can turn on the electric block heater or oil pan heater too... Last winter was cold enough to cause me to think about this stuff.

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #9 – August 30, 2014, 10:03:29 am

Scott,

Certainly a workable idea. The problem with a Detroit is all the normal block heater locations were used up in the Foretravel installation and their solution was to install it not down low in the block but completely outside the block and up high to boot. Even with a 1000 watt heater or larger, it still takes over two hours to warm the engine and even longer at high altitude in winter. It's been so cold and at 10,000 feet, we even had trouble getting the generator running with all glow plugs working, etc.

Since we installed solar and converted lights and TV to LEDs, we don't need to charge too much in the morning and generally let the panels work quietly in the background. National Park campgrounds are a mix of tents and motorhomes and the noise and smell (especially at altitude) from the generator is not friendly when others are out cooking breakfast.

The other big reason I bought the tankless is that I hate listening to the generator and both furnaces. If you step outside and feel the furnace exhaust, a high percentage of the heat is wasted. Even the OEM water heater is a noisy devil outside. I am looking forward to a instant and almost smoke free start at altitude in cold weather. Once I have full air, driving to the campground entrance, putting the engine on fast idle, letting Koda find a few bushes and then taking off. Should be about like a low cost AquaHot. Taking some time in planning has paid off nicely with the solar panel installation fulfilling all my expectations and hope this will do the same.

When you're retired, you've got nothing but time to have fun, tinker and hit the HF sales.

Will post photos as the installation progresses.

Pierce

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #10 – August 30, 2014, 08:09:15 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – August 30, 2014, 10:03:29 am

The problem with a Detroit is all the normal block heater locations were used up in the Foretravel installation
Pierce

On the DD in my BlueBird, the block heater is installed in a special semi-square plate just above the base pan. I've never seen anything else installed there except a heater. If the heater is not used, a block off plate is installed. What does Foretravel have installed in that location?

TOM

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #11 – August 30, 2014, 08:58:32 pm

Tom,

The semi-square plate I'm thinking of is down low on the right side of the block looking forward. The air conditioning compressor mount bolts on there now. The hole for the block heater down low on the left side was no longer cast into the block on the silver 92 series. Ours is up by the left thermostat and comes in from the side. It heats the crossover pipe nicely.

Several months ago in Death Valley, I met a guy with a bluebird/wanderlodge with a bad block heater on his Detroit. Didn't want to pull it without the right tools in the park. Nice group of people.

Pierce

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #12 – August 30, 2014, 09:08:45 pm

Pierce , I went and looked at mine after reading this post and found mine to be on the low side of the Bolck on the starter side, that is the way my Eagle was set up. So either the PO put it in or maybe the early u300 had them that way.

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #13 – August 30, 2014, 11:34:25 pm

Quote from: Andy 2 – August 30, 2014, 09:08:45 pm

Pierce , I went and looked at mine after reading this post and found mine to be on the low side of the Bolck on the starter side

Andy,
Could you post a photo when you get a chance?
It sounds like that was another PO improvement on your coach.
Mine is located in the same place as Pierce; up high on the drivers side thermostat housing. This is only place I have heard of them being located up until your post.
Thanks.

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #14 – August 31, 2014, 04:07:45 am

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – August 23, 2014, 12:26:38 pm

Santa Barbara is at sea level but our mechanical Detroits started within a tenth of a second even in winter with no block heater. Also used #40 oil.

Not specific to this topic, but different detroits will have different cold-weather behavior. Naturals (non-turbo) detroits have higher compression ratio and will start easier unaided and to lower temperatures.

There are some hi-perf DDEC boat engines that have trouble starting at 80degrees and put out a ton of smoke unless block heaters are used. Many people mistakenly claim these engines are worn out and in need of overhauls due to low compression.

I have an old 4-53 natural. It will start un-aided in a couple cranks down to 30-40 or so. Any lower and I just plug it in for a little bit.

A small shot of either is ok as well (or even wd40, etc).

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #15 – August 31, 2014, 07:29:23 am

My air conditioner compressor is located over the block heater as well. I just replaced the heater & had to remove the compressor to do it. Here are some pics. The first two are installed pics. The Prevost pic shows it between the belt. In the next pic it is right below the exhaust manifold at the end where the turbo pipe connects. The last is the heater without the plate. It is bent because the water jacket is shallow where it installs.

TOM

http://prevostcommunity.com/forum/threaddetails.asp?Category=General%20Discussions&ThreadID=750

Detroit Diesel Engine Model 92 DDEC V8 turbo 585 HP - Diesel Forum -

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #16 – August 31, 2014, 10:27:14 am

We must have different blocks or something. Tom, I can't see any installed photos in your post. Our AC mount is a flat plate and bolts against the block with no possibility of putting anything under it or running any wires out. Here is the link to the Detroit block heater that goes where the AC compressor is on ours. It states that it is only for Detroits without the AC compressor on one of the photos: Zerostart Heavy Duty Engine Block Heater Detroit Diesel | eBay This would be the perfect location and I have looked to see if I could relocate the compressor. Andy, I crawled under the coach this morning but could not find a spot on the block on the starter motor side.
Zerostart Heavy Duty Engine Block Heater Detroit Diesel | eBay

The longer block heater that goes up by the thermostat housing is the same exact heater used on CATs.

The cylinder head has removable plugs in the ends and would be a good spot for a recirculating type of block heater. Here is one with an internal pump. Would do a fast job of heating our engines with just a couple of hoses needed. Tank Type Engine Coolant Block Heater 1500W Diesel Kat's Brand Tractor New

Pierce

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #17 – August 31, 2014, 10:43:10 am

Quote from: Dave M – August 31, 2014, 09:05:52 am

The heater location behind the A/C compressor is a good spot, I prefer the oil cooler elbow toward the water pump, just screw it in, works great on the cooold mornings, if your engine is in reasonable shape & tune, heater not needed down to 30 or little lower. And if you have a good battery, using a cycle crank sequence, have started at 5f without either or any heat.

Dave,

I did get ours going with the cycle crank sequence as you described in the teens but at 8000 feet. Melted a battery terminal connector doing it. It spun like a top and then one cylinder would catch, a few seconds later another would fire. Took 3 or 4 cycles and if it had been in summer, the fire lookout tower would have sent air tankers for all the smoke.

Also took several cycles to get the generator running.

Pierce

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #18 – August 31, 2014, 04:11:21 pm

Pierce,

I guess we will have dueling pictures now. I can't see yours & you can't see mine!

Yours is too close for me to locate what I'm looking at I think.

My pic of the Prevost is the best one of mine. The heater is the brown (rusted?) looking thing right in the belt loop. the electric cord is burnt off. You can see the front mounting bolts for the heater plate very nicely but the rear ones are in the shadow & not hardly visible. I may try to get a better pic of the one on my BB. Mine is a 1982 300HP (red) model BTW. It has been converted to a 350HP silver.

TOM

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #19 – August 31, 2014, 06:16:26 pm

Don't forget that the two-stroke Detroit engines use straight 40 weight oil, and so an oil heater would also be an excellent idea in very cold weather.

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #20 – August 31, 2014, 06:41:06 pm

Quote from: OldManSax – August 31, 2014, 04:11:21 pm

Pierce,

I guess we will have dueling pictures now. I can't see yours & you can't see mine!
Yours is too close for me to locate what I'm looking at I think
TOM

Tom,

Attached is your photo. I swiped it off your site and processed it a bit to show the other bolts that were in the shadows before. The bolts in the four corners of the plate are the same four bolts as on our AC compressor mount. Your compressor must pivot lower on a different bracket. Anyway, it's a no go with that style block heater with our Foretravel.

One of these days, I will have to pull the mount off and see if it has coolant underneath.

Your earlier block may have had another spot on the lower left rear of the block. They changed the castings but not sure when. 71s did have it.

Pierce

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #21 – August 31, 2014, 09:47:12 pm

John Fitz, I will get a picture on tuesday next week, I can not get into the storage on the weekends (sucks) So next week I will post a picture.

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #22 – August 31, 2014, 10:34:59 pm

I have found that the circulation type heater works the best and they come in different wattages. I have found any time I have needed to heat up
an engine that won't start that it take 2 hours to heat up. I worked as a mechanic in -30 weather and the best way to make sure that every thing
will start is to make sure the starting system is in good shape. Batteries and starter must be in great shape with all the connections checked over

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #23 – September 01, 2014, 10:00:31 am

Are you familiar with Espar heaters? I have a diesel fired heater in my peterbilt for the sleeper and it will run you out if you turn it up too high. You can hardly hear it run. Mine is mounted under my bunk and just blows out into the cab.There is a small t stat that it is controlled from. They also have coolant heaters and heat and coolant heaters. Here is the link
Espar - RV Heaters, Motorhome Heaters - Eberspächer

Re: Block heater for DD (split from Re: 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?)

Reply #24 – September 01, 2014, 10:09:01 am

Stump, read this looks good. Says it will heat water and blow warm air at the same time

For sure worth looking into, for an upgrade.

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