Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

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Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

December 11, 2014, 03:09:39 pm

I'm looking at buying a 2003 U320, but have no way to inspect it. I'm concerned about bulkhead separation so contacted Foretravel service for "worst case" planning . . .

They'll inspect for free, but I was told that repair could range from 8 to 20 hours (@ $150/hour), depending on the extent of the fix. Ouch!

Tech also indicated that DIY repair was possible. I've read about folks doing this, but Bulkhead Separation article indicates that . . .

"the most important part of the repair is cleaning the surfaces between the steel pieces at the joint. He [Wayne] said the joint had to be spread 3-4" apart so all oxidation could be removed and a rust preventative be applied. He said that without this work the rust in the joint would just keep expanding, breaking any fasteners. The spreading process is definitely beyond the capability of most of us (with the risk of sidewall delamination!)"

So, DIY or Nacogdoches?

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #1 – December 11, 2014, 03:20:55 pm

The answer as to what is needed, varies quite a lot. Most of the variance depends on what caused the bulkhead issue.

If a couple of bolts are broken, but no deformation of the bulkhead, just replace the broken bolts with through bolts-- an easy DIY job. Follow that by masking the bolt heads (original and new ones) and undercoating to keep water from migrating from the outside.

There are two primary sources of bulkhead rust/separation: water from the wet bay and water (especially if up north with salt on the road) from the outside.

Best advice is to not over or under play this issue. With an inch-lb torque wrench and 15 minutes you can test all the bulkhead bolts. Then spend a couple if minutes looking at the area. Rust in the beam area results in rust jacking-- so you want to see if the fiberglass under the beam has been pushed down.

This is not rocket science.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #2 – December 11, 2014, 04:44:10 pm

One way to guess without an inspection as to how much if any bulkhead separation is to know where the coach has spend the first 11 years of it's young life. If the rust belt, watch for the worst. Mine has no evidence of separation, but had a pampered life, when not on the road, living it's first five years garaged in Palm desert, and the past six years at my house in the Los Angeles area with very little rain, no salted roads, and lots of sun.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #3 – December 11, 2014, 05:03:31 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – December 11, 2014, 03:20:55 pm

This is not rocket science.

Spoken by a rocket scientist -- you're an expert, Brett. Things are different -- harder to see -- for a novice like me.

But this still doesn't address the substance of Wayne's quote in my original post.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #4 – December 11, 2014, 05:15:45 pm

Quote from: hughes54311 – December 11, 2014, 05:03:31 pm

Spoken by a rocket scientist -- you're an expert, Brett. Things are different -- harder to see -- for a novice like me.

But this still doesn't address the substance of Wayne's quote in my original post.

OK, guess I will take a stab at it:

If the cause was road salt/water migration from the outside OR, if enough bolts are broken to allow water from the road into the joint (between angle beam and box beam), I completely agree with Wayne.

BUT, over half the bulkhead issues I have seen doing mechanical inspections were caused by water leaks into the wet bay. That water migrated down into the steel frame/foam insulation that forms the basement floor of the center part of the coach. So, the majority of the rust is on the front of the box beam and sometimes inside the box beam itself. So separation of the back of the box beam to angle steel will NOT address the affected areas.

Thiere is not a "one fix for all causes", and severity ranges from "at your convenience, replace 3 broken bolts and undercoat" to complete bulkhead failure.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #5 – December 11, 2014, 05:48:10 pm

With Brett's suggestions and reading about Don's experience, any damage may come from leakage rather than road salt. Ours was from road salt and did not extend into any tubing. Below is a quick review of what I did.

Our coach was pretty rust free but had a few broken bolts. You don't have to separate the bulkhead three or four inches if that is where the problem area is. I pulled about seven bolts, forced the area open about a quarter of an inch with a flat chisel and hammer. I then used a Sawzsall up behind the angle iron to get the rust out. A lot came out. Several different primers, depending on your favorite, can be used to prevent future rust. I used long 316 stainless bolts/nuts to replace the Rolocks but others have alternate methods. The new bolts can then be tightened and the next few removed and the process repeated across the coach or just the affected area. The weak/broken Rolocks will probably be in line with the spray from the tires. The entire repair can be done with all the wheels on the ground. I do have a pit otherwise the coach must be driven up on a set of blocks to give enough clearance to work on it.

If the problem is from leakage, the worst case amount of work may be extensive. Use the search box to find my fix and photos as well as well as Don's extensively documented repair from leakage. In his case, after the repair, he had become a master welder. Berry's coach also had a leak that required quite a bit of work.

If I ever get any extra time, I will loosen a few bolts at a time and place washers between the angle iron and the tubing to give about one eighth of air/drain space so the water will not collect there.

I purchased at long distance with only high resolution photos to go by. I might have been lucky. Good to pay someone to inspect before wiring the $$$.

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #6 – December 11, 2014, 06:01:39 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – December 11, 2014, 05:15:45 pm

There is not a "one fix for all causes", and severity ranges from "at your convenience, replace 3 broken bolts and undercoat" to complete bulkhead failure.

Got it -- proper diagnosis is the key.

But that's where a newbie like me would probably take the coach to Foretravel for inspection.

Tx!

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #7 – December 11, 2014, 06:29:29 pm

I had Wayne inspect and bid the bulkhead on my old U225. Then set an appointment, and he did the rear bulkhead, in part of one day and a couple of hours the next morning. We spent the night in the coach, at camp Foretravel. His bid was in a range as he told you, and his final invoice was less than the smallest number he quoted.

Xtreme does the repairs as well, just up the street.

Figure the repair into your buy price, and put the money aside for the day you might need to do the repair.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #8 – December 11, 2014, 06:55:50 pm

Did not know about bulkhead issues when we bought the coach. Had a complete front bulkhead failure. Then I learned a lot about the bulkhead. Repaired the bulkhead myself over the summer, the box beam was in good shape, so I cleaned the area out used rust proofing, and replaced all 17 broken rolloks with bolts nuts washers etc. not rocket science, just a lot of hard work and a ton of questions from Forum members. No issues under there now, everything is coated with undercoating no more rust. If you search the Forum for bulkhead issues you will gain a ton of knowledge.

Roland

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #9 – December 11, 2014, 07:51:20 pm

Quote from: hughes54311 – December 11, 2014, 06:01:39 pm

Got it -- proper diagnosis is the key.

But that's where a newbie like me would probably take the coach to Foretravel for inspection.

Tx!

Why not use someone that does inspections like Brett. You get a third party with nothing to gain and a ton of experience. Don't want to quote prices but big shops have big overheads.

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #10 – December 12, 2014, 08:49:12 am

Chassis construction photos from Don and welding on your FT

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #11 – December 12, 2014, 09:08:16 am

I definitely concur on using Brett; I believe he is probably one of the most competent and knowledgeable people on this (and many other) subjects and he would be my first choice for inspections before buying.

However, if he's not available (as he wasn't when we bought our Foretravel) - you're perfectly capable of doing the "inch-pound" torque test on the bolts of any coach you're considering. Should any fail the test, you could walk away. Or, as we did, make the best guess you can, roll the dice, fix two broken bolts (using Brett's method of "through-bolting"), check the remainder annually, and hope for the best.

Time will tell if we made a good choice, or not. Based on some of the other junk I see people spending large sums of cash to purchase, I like our chances. But, there are other good motorhome manufacturers out there if you just can't get comfortable with this issue.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #12 – December 12, 2014, 10:11:00 am

After all the enjoyment of almost 4 years with our two Foretravels, in hind sight, I am very glad we bought both of them. That my first one need repair, and the second one had already been repaired still does not bother me. Knowing how easy the repair can hopefully be, the cost of the repair is a tiny fraction of the cost of purchase and ownership. Would I buy another, and risk someday needing a repair, in a heart beat!

Also while in NAC, I had a chance to talk to an owner that had done his own repair. He asked my cost to have FOT do it. He said he would never do another repair for how little FOT had charged me. Yes many owners have done the repair themselves. You should figure into the costs the physical recovery time of all your time on the ground and under your coach.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #13 – December 12, 2014, 10:35:15 am

There are several ways to replace broken Rolocks.

For awhile (and perhaps still) Foretravel used huck bolts (basically an oversized rivet).

This is my least favorite method, as it concentrates the whole load on a small area of the 1/8" thick "inner wall" (toward center of coach side) of the box beam (the beam that may be compromised by rust).

Better, is to through bolt AND use a custom (but inexpensive) square washer to back up that inner wall. The custom washer is tall enough to spread the load to the two horizontal sides of the box beam rather than concentrating it on a small area in the center of the vertical/inner wall. MUCH better from an engineering standpoint.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #14 – December 12, 2014, 10:59:00 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – December 12, 2014, 10:35:15 am

For awhile (and perhaps still) Foretravel used huck bolts (basically an oversized rivet).

Is Foretravel using or has used Huck Bolts or Huck Rivets? If Huck bolts were used, the square washers could be used same as if standard thru bolts were used. At least it appears to be that way from reading the Huck Website.

Larry

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #15 – December 12, 2014, 12:03:33 pm

Quote from: LTG – December 12, 2014, 10:59:00 am

Is Foretravel using or has used Huck Bolts or Huck Rivets? If Huck bolts were used, the square washers could be used same as if standard thru bolts were used. At least it appears to be that way from reading the Huck Website.

Larry

Larry,

Yes a custom "washer" COULD (the operative word) be used to back up the huck bolt.

But it would involve more labor, as one would have to cut a hole through the thin lower fiberglass layer making up the coach bottom (easy), remove the foam insulation, put in the washer (again a square one large enough to spread the load to the two horizontal elements of the box beam vs round washer), install the huck bolt and then install a waterproof plug. This is virtually the same amount of work to through bolt.

If you see huck bolts and do not see holes (actually you should see waterproof plugs) in the white fiberglass coach bottom directly inboard (toward center of coach) from the huck bolt, there is no way it has a washer in there to spread the load.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #16 – December 12, 2014, 12:15:28 pm

Brett,

My question is if Foretravel is using Huck Lockbolts or Huck Blind Fasteners to build new Foretravels and to make bulkhead repairs on used Foretravels.

According to the Huck Website there are two types of fasteners, Huck Lockbolts and Huck Blind Fasteners.

When members say Huck Bolts, which type fastener are they talking about?

I have searched the Forum Archives and this is not clear to me..

Thanks,

Larry

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #17 – December 12, 2014, 12:31:10 pm

Larry,

From their website:

Huck LockBolts

Huck LockBolts consist of two parts: a pin, and a collar. The bolt is inserted into one side of the joint material and the collar is placed over the bolt from the other side of the joint material. Access to both sides of the joint is required. A Huck installation tool is used to swage the collar materials into the grooves of the bolt providing a permanent and vibration resistant fastening.

So this style would require the same "hole in the floor" as through bolting or blind fastener with backing washer.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #18 – December 12, 2014, 12:35:48 pm

Brett,

I got it. Now, which type is Foretravel using?

BTW, I started a new thread and asked if anyone who has toured the factory noticed which type was being used.

Larry

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #19 – December 12, 2014, 12:39:24 pm

And, would certainly be possible that one type is used on new, one on repair.

I have no information on current construction techniques at Foretravel.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #20 – December 12, 2014, 04:57:19 pm

I guess I will chime in about part of the quote attributed to Wayne of FOT... I think that the idea of separating the ¼" angle iron from the bulkhead by 3" to 4" is just nuts. It could be done, but is simply not necessary or even desirable in any case I can imagine. An inch to an inch and a half is more than adequate to get the area cleaned out and even coated with a rust preventative. As far as the risk of delamination in the sidewalls above the bulkhead joint, it is highly unlikely to be caused by the bulkhead joint separating in the usual manner. I puzzled about this issue because of the separation in the rear bulkhead of our coach had me scratching my head in how that could happen without being transmitted to the walls above that area. The answer is that the bulkhead will hinge at the top just below the floor where it is attached to the drivetrain carrying longitudinal framework (which is supported by the horizontal frame members through which the top of 'H' frame of the suspension and air bag assemblies support the sprung weight of the coach). Anyway on our coach, the rear bulkhead (defined as the sheet metal partition which separates the basement compartments from the drivetrain area behind it are tied to this heavy engine and tranny framework by a total of four 2"X2"X¼" vertical pieces of angle iron which are tack welded to the sheet metal of the bulkhead and structurally welded to the 3"X3"X¼" transverse angle at the bottom and the heavy longitudinal 3"X5" rectangular tubing of the drivetrain carrying subframe. The bulkhead assembly (which I will define as the sheet metal partition combined with the heavy 3"X3" angle and trailing arm mounting shackles etc.), is put under tension at the bottom by the trailing arms with every bump and dip and by application of transmission retarder or engine brake. The basement is what keeps the rear axle located in the vertical plane and is capable of resisting the tension as long as the fasteners are in good shape and the basement framing is not compromised. When the fasteners and/or basement floor framing are compromised by rust, whatever the source, the angle iron pulls the bulkhead assembly away from the basement. the reason that the structure above the floor typically isn't adversely affected is because the four 2"X2"¼" vertical pieces of angle iron crack where they are welded at the top and the bulkhead as a whole hinges away from the basement at the bottom. The fenders are flexible enough to give and bow outward when the bottom of the bulkhead assembly pulls away from the basement floor. when I redid my the utility compartment portion of the basement framing and repaired the bulkhead joint on our coach, I fabricated some heavy 3"X"3 rectangular tubing with integral gusseting welded to the longitudinal drive train carrying framework and to the vertical pieces of angle iron which were cracked.

The act of separating the bulkhead joint and controlling the gap (on the rear bulkhead only) is fairly simple and doesn't involve prying it apart or using a come-along. I am not recommending that anyone take this on but just describing how it can be done based on my experience on our own coach. Raise the coach as high as possible with the HWH air system. Place your four safety stands in front and behind the rear wheels (You do use four stands per axle, don't you?

). Dump just enough air to make contact with the safety stands and pin them in place with the weight of the coach. Place an appropriately sized bottle jack (the harbor freight 12-ton air assisted bottle jack just fits and makes this much easier) in front of the rear wheel next to your front safety stands if you have room, or replace them if you don't. With no fasteners between the transverse angle iron (having already been either broken or removed), work on each side's bottle jack alternately to apply downward pressure to the"H" frame near where the bottom of the air spring is attached to the suspension "H" frame.
The suspension "H" frame will then act as a lever (think Teeter-totter) with the wheels as the fulcrum to pull the joint apart via the trailing arms. I can't stress enough that the rear safety stands are crucial to control and limit the amount of separation at the bulkhead joint. If you have a slightly separated bulkhead joint and your vertical angles are not cracked at all, you need to determine what has moved before starting this process. Personally, I wouldn't let fear of cracking the vertical angles keep me from cleaning out the joint and to be able to protect it. The reason that I wouldn't is that, in my opinion, the vertical angles by themselves don't serve as a structural joint (at least not a strong one). The way I read it is that these vertical angles are mainly there to stiffen the sheet metal bulkhead which also helps support the sides of the waste or fresh tanks. They also help support bulkhead while the coach is being built before the basement is bolted in place. That said however, with the semi-monocoque design of the Unihomes and Unicoaches, everything plays a role in the strength of the coach as a whole. I felt strongly enough that I wanted to help the basement resist the pull of the trailing arms, that I went through the trouble to fabricate a reinforcement.
I would caution anyone who has a bulkhead separation issue to use your own judgement, or the judgement of somebody you believe capable on how to proceed. What I have done on our coach, and what I have said obviously doesn't constitute a recommendation about what anyone faced with similar issues should do. My purpose of posting this is purely educational and it is my hope that the information might help someone else reach a decision about how to approach solving a problem such as this, either through their own efforts or to help them choose a place to carry out the repairs.
Don

Quote from: hughes54311 – December 11, 2014, 03:09:39 pm

I'm looking at buying a 2003 U320, but have no way to inspect it. I'm concerned about bulkhead separation so contacted Foretravel service for "worst case" planning . . .

They'll inspect for free, but I was told that repair could range from 8 to 20 hours (@ $150/hour), depending on the extent of the fix. Ouch!

Tech also indicated that DIY repair was possible. I've read about folks doing this, but Bulkhead Separation article indicates that . . .

"the most important part of the repair is cleaning the surfaces between the steel pieces at the joint. He [Wayne] said the joint had to be spread 3-4" apart so all oxidation could be removed and a rust preventative be applied. He said that without this work the rust in the joint would just keep expanding, breaking any fasteners. The spreading process is definitely beyond the capability of most of us (with the risk of sidewall delamination!)"

So, DIY or Nacogdoches?

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #21 – December 12, 2014, 05:23:55 pm

I suspect Don will verify, but cleaning the back of the box beam (referring to rear bulkhead) does NOT, repeat NOT insure that "all is well". Particularly with leaks in the wet bay that migrate down into the basement floor (same box beams and foam construction) that will hold water against the unprotected iron box beam, the front of the beam or even the inside of the box beam may be compromised. That is why keeping the wet bay dry is critical to longevity.

I have seen something as simple as a bad gasket ($.15) on the fresh water fill that leaked for a long time do serious damage to a bulkhead. Same for water heater drain or water heater pressure relief valve. It is NOT rocket science to keep the bulkhead in good condition for many decades. It is also possible through what I will call neglect, to allow it to fail.

I have inspected 25 year old Foretravels with perfect bulkheads and 10 year old ones that have been allowed to fail.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #22 – December 12, 2014, 05:33:27 pm

That is correct Brett. In our case, the worst of the rust was in the area between the bottom skin and deck skin of the basement adjacent to the bulkhead joint. This is where the blue Polystyrene insulation lives. The worst of it is the area which was filled with two layers of ¾" plywood that fills a cavity in place of the polystyrene insulation, presumably to give an attachment point for accessories such as water pumps, hose reels, etc. The plywood was close to the outboard edge of the basement floor in four places on our coach. The two that were in contact with the basement side of the bulkhead joint were especially soaked and rotting, therefore holding moisture against the steel framing in direct contact with the pointy end of the Rolok bolts.
Don

Quote from: wolfe10 – December 12, 2014, 05:23:55 pm

I suspect Don will verify, but cleaning the back of the box beam (referring to rear bulkhead) does NOT, repeat NOT insure that "all is well". Particularly with leaks in the wet bay that migrate down into the basement floor (same box beams and foam construction) that will hold water against the unprotected iron box beam, the front of the beam or even the inside of the box beam may be compromised. That is why keeping the wet bay dry is critical to longevity.

I have seen something as simple as a bad gasket ($.15) on the fresh water fill that leaked for a long time do serious damage to a bulkhead. Same for water heater drain or water heater pressure relief valve. It is NOT rocket science to keep the bulkhead in good condition for many decades. It is also possible through what I will call neglect, to allow it to fail.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #23 – December 12, 2014, 05:50:06 pm

Nac.

Get Xtreme, FT and MOT to look at it, pick the one you like the best (Not necessarily the cheapest) I had MOT do mine, and Xtreme or MOT check every time I am in town. Â was less than $1,000 (coach buck) including undercoating.

Tim

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #24 – December 12, 2014, 09:28:03 pm

Wayne at FT did mine-also $1000.

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