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Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

I'm looking at buying a 2003 U320, but have no way to inspect it. I'm concerned about bulkhead separation so contacted Foretravel service for "worst case" planning . . .

They'll inspect for free, but I was told that repair could range from 8 to 20 hours (@ $150/hour), depending on the extent of the fix. Ouch!

Tech also indicated that DIY repair was possible. I've read about folks doing this, but Bulkhead Separation article indicates that . . .

"the most important part of the repair is cleaning the surfaces between the steel pieces at the joint. He [Wayne] said the joint had to be spread 3-4" apart so all oxidation could be removed and a rust preventative be applied. He said that without this work the rust in the joint would just keep expanding, breaking any fasteners. The spreading process is definitely beyond the capability of most of us (with the risk of sidewall delamination!)"

So, DIY or Nacogdoches?

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #1 –
The answer as to what is needed, varies quite a lot.  Most of the variance depends on what caused the bulkhead issue.

If a couple of bolts are broken, but no deformation of the bulkhead, just replace the broken bolts with through bolts-- an easy DIY job.  Follow that by masking the bolt heads (original and new ones) and undercoating to keep water from migrating from the outside.

There are two primary sources of bulkhead rust/separation:  water from the wet bay and water (especially if up north with salt on the road) from the outside.

Best advice is to not over or under play this issue.  With an inch-lb torque wrench and 15 minutes you can test all the bulkhead bolts.  Then spend a couple if minutes looking at the area.  Rust in the beam area results in rust jacking-- so you want to see if the fiberglass under the beam has been pushed down.

This is not rocket science.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #2 –
One way to guess without an inspection as to how much if any bulkhead separation is to know where the coach has spend the first 11 years of it's young life.  If the rust belt, watch for the worst.  Mine has no evidence of separation, but had a pampered life, when not on the road, living it's first five years garaged in Palm desert, and the past six years at my house in the Los Angeles area with very little rain, no salted roads, and lots of sun.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #3 –
Quote from: wolfe10 –
This is not rocket science.
Spoken by a rocket scientist -- you're an expert, Brett. Things are different -- harder to see -- for a novice like me.

But this still doesn't address the substance of Wayne's quote in my original post.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #4 –
Quote from: hughes54311 –
Spoken by a rocket scientist -- you're an expert, Brett. Things are different -- harder to see -- for a novice like me.

But this still doesn't address the substance of Wayne's quote in my original post.

OK, guess I will take a stab at it:

If the cause was road salt/water migration from the outside OR, if enough bolts are broken to allow water from the road into the joint (between angle beam and box beam), I completely agree with Wayne.

BUT, over half the bulkhead issues I have seen doing mechanical inspections were caused by water leaks into the wet bay. That water migrated down into the steel frame/foam insulation that forms the basement floor of the center part of the coach.  So, the majority of the rust is on the front of the box beam and sometimes inside the box beam itself.  So separation of the back of the box beam to angle steel will NOT address the affected areas.

Thiere is not a "one fix for all causes", and severity ranges from "at your convenience, replace 3 broken bolts and undercoat" to complete bulkhead failure.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #5 –
With Brett's suggestions and reading about Don's experience, any damage may come from leakage rather than road salt. Ours was from road salt and did not extend into any tubing. Below is a quick review of what I did.

Our coach was pretty rust free but had a few broken bolts. You don't have to separate the bulkhead three or four inches if that is where the problem area is. I pulled about seven bolts, forced the area open about a quarter of an inch with a flat chisel and hammer. I then used a Sawzsall up behind the angle iron to get the rust out. A lot came out. Several different primers, depending on your favorite, can be used to prevent future rust. I used long 316 stainless bolts/nuts to replace the Rolocks but others have alternate methods. The new bolts can then be tightened and the next few removed and the process repeated across the coach or just the affected area. The weak/broken Rolocks will probably be in line with the spray from the tires. The entire repair can be done with all the wheels on the ground. I do have a pit otherwise the coach must be driven up on a set of blocks to give enough clearance to work on it.

If the problem is from leakage, the worst case amount of work may be extensive. Use the search box to find my fix and photos as well as well as Don's extensively documented repair from leakage. In his case, after the repair, he had become a master welder. Berry's coach also had a leak that required quite a bit of work.

If I ever get any extra time, I will loosen a few bolts at a time and place washers between the angle iron and the tubing to give about one eighth of air/drain space so the water will not collect there.

I purchased at long distance with only high resolution photos to go by. I might have been lucky. Good to pay someone to inspect before wiring the $$$.

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #6 –
Quote from: wolfe10 –
There is not a "one fix for all causes", and severity ranges from "at your convenience, replace 3 broken bolts and undercoat" to complete bulkhead failure.
Got it -- proper diagnosis is the key.

But that's where a newbie like me would probably take the coach to Foretravel for inspection.

Tx!

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #7 –
I had Wayne inspect and bid the bulkhead on my old U225.  Then set an appointment, and he did the rear bulkhead, in part of one day and a couple of hours the next morning.  We spent the night in the coach, at camp Foretravel.  His bid was in a range as he told you, and his final invoice was less than the smallest number he quoted.

Xtreme does the repairs as well, just up the street.

Figure the repair into your buy price, and put the money aside for the day you might need to do the repair.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #8 –
Did not know about bulkhead issues when we bought the coach. Had a complete front bulkhead failure. Then I learned a lot about the bulkhead. Repaired the bulkhead myself over the summer, the box beam was in good shape, so I cleaned the area out used rust proofing, and replaced all 17 broken rolloks with bolts nuts washers etc. not rocket science, just a lot of hard work and a ton of questions from Forum members. No issues under there now, everything is coated with undercoating no more rust. If you search the Forum for bulkhead issues you will gain a ton of knowledge.

Roland

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #9 –
Quote from: hughes54311 –
Got it -- proper diagnosis is the key.

But that's where a newbie like me would probably take the coach to Foretravel for inspection.

Tx!

Why not use someone that does inspections like Brett. You get a third party with nothing to gain and a ton of experience. Don't want to quote prices but big shops have big overheads.

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #11 –
I definitely concur on using Brett; I believe he is probably one of the most competent and knowledgeable people on this (and many other) subjects and he would be my first choice for inspections before buying.

However, if he's not available (as he wasn't when we bought our Foretravel) - you're perfectly capable of doing the "inch-pound" torque test on the bolts of any coach you're considering.  Should any fail the test, you could walk away.  Or, as we did, make the best guess you can, roll the dice, fix two broken bolts (using Brett's method of "through-bolting"), check the remainder annually, and hope for the best.

Time will tell if we made a good choice, or not.  Based on some of the other junk I see people spending large sums of cash to purchase, I like our chances.  But, there are other good motorhome manufacturers out there if you just can't get comfortable with this issue. 

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #12 –
After all the enjoyment of almost 4 years with our two Foretravels, in hind sight, I am very glad we bought both of them.  That my first one need repair, and the second one had already been repaired still does not bother me.  Knowing how easy the repair can hopefully be, the cost of the repair is a tiny fraction of the cost of purchase and ownership.  Would I buy another, and risk someday needing a repair, in a heart beat!

Also while in NAC, I had a chance to talk to an owner that had done his own repair.  He asked my cost to have FOT do it.  He said he would never do another repair for how little FOT had charged me.  Yes many owners have done the repair themselves.  You should figure into the costs the physical recovery time of all your time on the ground and under your coach.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #13 –
There are several ways to replace broken Rolocks.

For awhile (and perhaps still) Foretravel used huck bolts (basically an oversized rivet).

This is my least favorite method, as it concentrates the whole load on a small area of the 1/8" thick "inner wall" (toward center of coach side) of the box beam (the beam that may be compromised by rust).

Better, is to through bolt AND use a custom (but inexpensive) square washer to back up that inner wall.  The custom washer is tall enough to spread the load to the two horizontal sides of the box beam rather than concentrating it on a small area in the center of the vertical/inner wall.  MUCH better from an engineering standpoint.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #14 –
Quote from: wolfe10 –
For awhile (and perhaps still) Foretravel used huck bolts (basically an oversized rivet).

Is Foretravel using or has used Huck Bolts or Huck Rivets? If Huck bolts were used, the square washers could be used same as if standard thru bolts were used. At least it appears to be that way from reading the Huck Website.

Larry

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #15 –
Quote from: LTG –
Is Foretravel using or has used Huck Bolts or Huck Rivets? If Huck bolts were used, the square washers could be used same as if standard thru bolts were used. At least it appears to be that way from reading the Huck Website.

Larry

Larry,

Yes a custom "washer" COULD (the operative word) be used to back up the huck bolt. 

But it would involve more labor, as one would have to cut a hole through the thin lower fiberglass layer making up the coach bottom (easy), remove the foam insulation, put in the washer (again a square one large enough to spread the load to the two horizontal elements of the box beam vs round washer), install the huck bolt and then install a waterproof plug.  This is virtually the same amount of work to through bolt.

If you see huck bolts and do not see holes (actually you should see waterproof plugs) in the white fiberglass coach bottom directly inboard (toward center of coach) from the huck bolt, there is no way it has a washer in there to spread the load.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #16 –
Brett,

My question is if  Foretravel is using Huck Lockbolts or Huck Blind Fasteners to build new Foretravels and to make bulkhead repairs on used Foretravels.

According to the Huck Website there are two types of fasteners, Huck Lockbolts and Huck Blind Fasteners.

When members say Huck Bolts, which type fastener are they talking about?

I have searched the Forum Archives and this is not clear to me..

Thanks,

Larry

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #17 –
Larry,

From their website:

 Huck LockBolts

Huck LockBolts consist of two parts: a pin, and a collar. The bolt is inserted into one side of the joint material and the collar is placed over the bolt from the other side of the joint material. Access to both sides of the joint is required. A Huck installation tool is used to swage the collar materials into the grooves of the bolt providing a permanent and vibration resistant fastening.



So this style would require the same "hole in the floor" as through bolting or blind fastener with backing washer.

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #18 –
Brett,

I got it.  Now, which type is Foretravel using?

BTW, I started a new thread and asked if anyone who has toured the  factory noticed which type was being used.

Larry

Re: Bulkhead Separation - Planning for the Worst

Reply #19 –
And, would certainly be possible that one type is used on new, one on repair.

I have no information on current construction techniques at Foretravel.