Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #25 – August 06, 2015, 12:51:07 am John,Check the DDEC 5236962 injectors on ebay for $75/each outright/no core. These are supplied in a California Detroit smog kit with 277hp and perhaps up to 350hp. Reliabilt R 5236962 Reman Fuel Injector for Detroit Diesel 6V92 DDEC4 No... I understand that they will work on DDEC II also.Your engine number is on the bottom of the full length sticker and ends in 2357 but can't quite see the numbers that come before that.Check your air cleaner as that can cause a little smoke, especially at altitude. We get a little puff up at around 8000 feet when leaving a stop sign. Takes longer for the turbo to spool up at altitude so more smoke. Accurate valve adjustment means accurate cam timing too. Ours smokes a small amount until it gets warm also. Running injector cleaner fairly often minimizes smoke.One of these days, I will run into someone that has all the inside info on the different injectors and what the difference is.No idea what "advanced 400hp" means.Pierce Quote Selected 1 Likes
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #26 – August 06, 2015, 12:00:32 pm Quote from: RRadio – August 04, 2015, 07:11:46 pmI asked about the fuel in the oil damaging the engine. Three different diesel mechanics who are very familiar with 2 cycle Detroits told me it didn't do any damage and that it happens frequently. The mechanic who took the valve covers off couldn't believe how clean I got the engine. He said a lot of guys put fuel in the oil intentionally to clean it out, but he had never seen one that clean before.Well, I am glad to hear that your engine is ok and that I wasn't the bearer of bad news. Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #27 – August 06, 2015, 05:36:25 pm Quote from: Don & Tys (AKA acousticart) – August 06, 2015, 12:49:24 amI have always read "Adv. HP" as Advertised horsepower...DonIf that means Advertised then there's no "truth in" it because I'm only getting 300 Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #28 – August 06, 2015, 06:51:25 pm Scott,Sorry you had to go through that breakdown and to had pay out much more than was necessary, but as we all know you can't always be prepared for everything that happens. We've all had our share of unforseen circumstances and had to pay the price. The rest of us appreciate learning from your experience. Were there any other noticeable signs when driving before this happened such as excessive smoke or lack of power, etc. Was your oil pressure fluctuating at highway speeds? Did the event trigger any codes? Have you had an oil analysis since owning your coach? I would also recommend an injector test and a cylinder cut-out test with a Pro-Link as Pierce suggested to check all of your injectors/cylinders and locate any weaknesses. Also with the Pro-Link Snap Shot feature you would have the ability to detect a potential problem and get it fixed before something catastrophic happens and leaves you stranded. I can't think of a better tool to have for preventative maintenance when traveling all the time. Jerry Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #29 – August 06, 2015, 07:36:57 pm John,What is the color of the excessive smoke on acceleration that you noticed? According the Diesel Pro Power 6V92 Turbo troubleshooting checklist there are three possibilities for excessive smoke on acceleration:Long idle periodsContaminated fuelExternal oil leaksAlso a defective injector could be associated with black, white, or grey smoke. http://dieselpro.com/FreeResourcesPDF/Dieselpro_DD_6v92_turbo.pdfI checked with the Detroit shop here and the injectors were $450 with a $250 core charge. Diesel Pro also carries them(rebuilt) along with other parts for the injectors. Detroit Diesel 6V92 Turbo | InjectorsJerry Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #30 – August 06, 2015, 10:22:29 pm Jerry that link shows mechanical injectors the DDEC Injectors are different. Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #31 – August 06, 2015, 10:35:20 pm Stump,Thanks for the correction. I didn't realize it!Jerry Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #32 – August 06, 2015, 10:48:24 pm The ADV horse power is the max hp that that engine parts combination can safely produce.The engines are used in all kinds of vocations and different HP is needed .The reason the coaches are set where they are us to try and make them idiot proof . Larry Leisure traveling around with his motorhome is going to hit the hill and mash the gas.He expects to make it to the top full throttle no overheating,etc.In order to do that fuel rate has to be cut back in the ECM.Your and my engine could safely be turned to 400 + BUT you have to then drive the coach,No more leaving the cruise on pulling hills,You have to watch gages and back off the throttle when Temps rise. The majority of owners dont want that they want to be enjoying the drive and not thinking what the engine needs.And of course it needs to last fir half a million miles too! But if you could discipline yourself to read the warning signs you could turn these way up.You couldn't let anybody else drive it because they would burn it up. You wont because it's yours and you know whats required. I do it everyday in my Peterbilt turned way up, temp is a issue but I know when to back out of it Truck tuns great and is fun to drive.But I couldn't put adriver in it they'd tear it up . I'd have to put it back more stock. Quote Selected 2 Likes
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #33 – August 06, 2015, 11:41:43 pm Advertised 400 might be all that the 746 Allison was rated at. The 520 to 620hp 6V-92TAs you see advertised on ebay would destroy the transmission as well as require radiators up front and on both sides. Here is a new 565hp DDEC II 6V-92TA for $21K but is Tier I non-highway emissions only. Not that it would make any difference on an older motorhome. Pretty thing: Detroit Diesel 6V92TA Ddec II Marine Diesel Engine | eBay Turbo on the end gives more deck (boat) clearance but would fit our U300 with room left over. Pierce Quote Selected 1 Likes
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #34 – August 07, 2015, 08:09:39 pm My challenge is only open to four cycle guys who hijack my posts and turn them into a four cycle superiority thingy. This happened several times including a year ago when I posted about engine oil and a bunch of four cycle guys attacked my engine as being inferior. I'm up here in the Rockies right now. Bring your "superior" four cycle rig up here and lets settle this thing so I can post stuff without any more of this four cycle superiority nonsense. Bring your wastegate and your 6 speed and your fancy computer monitors and anything else you think will make your four cycle keep up with me. We'll settle all those things too. It doesn't matter what you believe or what you write on here. It's not gonna change reality. The laws of physics are strictly enforced. So let's just do this right now. Who wants to bring their "superior" four cycle coach up here and get smoked over the continental divide? I just did it the other day. Only one car passed me and it wasn't until I reached about 11,000' and it was just barely walking away from me. We'll start at the bottom of the pass with the "superior" four cycle coach right on my back bumper and if you still have me in sight when I cross the continental divide you win and I have to go get my power turned up. But if I have to pull over at the top of Monarch Pass and wait for you I win and you have to stop hijacking my posts... agreed? ...and of course I promise I won't start hijacking your posts and turning them into two cycle superiority.According to Stewart & Stevenson my injector part number is: R5234915 but you might have to move the "R" to the other end of the number because I've found it listed both ways. They're all over eBay and the internet in general. Filter Barn was a place that I recognized as being a good vendor that I've purchased stuff from before, but there are many other sellers. I'm told WW Williams in Phoenix is a hundred dollars cheaper than Stewart & Stevenson on that same injector but I didn't call them personally to verify this.I met a really nice couple with a 1992 U300 40' towing a 4Runner in the campground at Capitol Reef national park. Sorry I didn't write about that beautiful campground yet. I've been so many places and I never get enough time to write anymore. The folks with the 1992 U300 have a 6V92TA with a rear radiator and a four speed Allison like mine but their engine is set at 350 horsepower. They have the wider body of the 1992 model but they have the rear radiator and four speed of the 1991 model. Maybe their coach was a transitional model or something? Their 4Runner weighs about 6,000 lbs and their coach no doubt weighs more than mine does. This new information supports the advice I got from Stewart & Stevenson's Allison transmission shop in Dallas where they told me my four speed would probably handle 450 horsepower with no problems, especially considering my coach is lighter than most and never tows a car... I'm not gonna do it but now I have more evidence suggesting that I could without damage.The shop in Santa Fe you want to avoid is Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service. They price gouged me real bad on the parts ($1,000 for an injector) and probably on the labor too ($119/hour) and broke a part inside my engine. Read the beginning of this thread for the details.The Series 60 that I measured the turbocharger on was in a Wanderlodge with fiberglass skin. I've only seen metal skinned ones up until that one. It must be a lot lighter with the fiberglass skin. It was a really nice coach. It was at Hal Burns for transmission work. The Series 60 is a physically large engine found only in very expensive coaches as near as I can tell. I previously saw one in a Beaver. I believe this was a 12 liter engine but I'm not sure. My 6V92TA is only 9 liter but the turbocharger is an inch larger in diameter than the Series 60. Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #35 – August 07, 2015, 09:06:03 pm No 4cycle guy hijacked your posts....it started with a warning to be careful of cheap injectors. It's just advice I received from guys that work/rebuild/tune/make a living on detroits. Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #36 – August 07, 2015, 09:22:14 pm Scott,Reliabilt is the factory injector and as Krush said, the one to buy as the others have a higher failure rate.All U300 coaches with a Detroit 6V-92TA have a Allison four speed, some with Jake, some with a retarder. Earlier lockup in only third and fourth, later starting part way through second gear. None that I know of have a six speed. The U300 in 1995 had a 6 speed but a CAT for an engine.A 2 cycle Detroit will have a larger turbo because two cycles fire every stroke of the piston so use a huge amount of air. You will notice that the stock exhaust pipe is 5 inches in diameter. All four valves in the cylinder head are exhaust valves. No intake valves in a Detroit 2 cycle. Big advantage is the EGT is about 150 degrees cooler than a four cycle so Detroits almost never drop valves like their 4 cycle cousins. The 60 series was a good engine and Mercedes has carried a lot of it's features forward into it's DD13, 15 and 16. The V series Detroits found their way into boats as the V configururation allowed for a lower deck. Especially with the turbo mounted on the end like the one on ebay. Pierce Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #37 – August 07, 2015, 10:21:14 pm Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – August 07, 2015, 09:22:14 pmReliabilt is the factory injector and as Krush said, the one to buy as the others have a higher failure rate.Partial trivia, but from trustworthy sources: Guys were getting no good reliabilt injectors new out of the box! Now these guys send even new injectors off to the shop (another guy I know) to be tested. These are mechanical injectors, though. Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #38 – August 07, 2015, 11:08:28 pm With a newer common rail cummins or cat this same thing can happen but it is more likely the o-rings - cost $12. So you have to figure out why your oil is full of fuel first. Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #39 – August 08, 2015, 02:33:28 am Quote from: piku – August 07, 2015, 11:08:28 pmWith a newer common rail cummins or cat this same thing can happen but it is more likely the o-rings - cost $12. So you have to figure out why your oil is full of fuel first.Detroits don't have fuel lines on the outside of the engine. All fuel passages are inside the head, both supply and return lines along with the camshaft driven unit injector/pump are under the valve covers. This is why the engines have an ultra clean look to them. The V series Detroits have a camshaft for each bank. This is one of the reasons there are more parts in one 92 cylinder head than in all of a Cummins or CAT engine. There is a short tube with fasteners at each end from the cylinder head fuel supply port to the injector and another short tube from the injector back to the internal fuel return passage. If these tubes are overtightened, they may crack or vibration from the Jake could loosen one. They do have an O ring and it's possible an injector could leak under the solenoid. Shops usually plug the return ports in the heads, feed dyed diesel at about 80 psi into the heads and look for the leak with a black light. Detroit Diesel had several owners since originally sold by General Motors. Not that much development work was done by the new owners until Mercedes purchased Detroit. While many problems with engines and Reliabilt replacement parts can be traced to past factory practices, Mercedes has invested many millions in quality control and development on the legacy 2 cycles as well as the newer 4 cycle Detroit Diesels. The new DD13 (13 liters), DD15 and DD16 have had over $1.5 billion invested in development. Some interesting new developments include a common rail injection with much lower pressures in the common rail with the injector pressure amplified AT the injector to about 30,000 psi. The B-50 life is now one million miles. This translates into 50% of the engines needing to be overhauled at one million miles with some earlier and some going over 3 million miles before needing overhaul. They are now international engines with the lightweight compacted graphite iron (CGI) engine blocks made in Germany but much of the automated machine work done here in the United States.Pierce Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #40 – August 08, 2015, 06:59:03 am Quote from: krush – August 07, 2015, 10:21:14 pmPartial trivia, but from trustworthy sources: Guys were getting no good reliabilt injectors new out of the box! Now these guys send even new injectors off to the shop (another guy I know) to be tested. These are mechanical injectors, though.Getting good EUI Electronic Unit Injector for a Detroit is a 50/50. The most reliable one now is a Bosch rebuilt unit. Reliabuilt,Truck Pro,those guys are hit and miss I put a set of TruckPro rebuilds in my Series 60 and had 3 bad ones in a 2 week period. 2 on the same cylinder and 1 on another, Pain in the Arse! If you can find a real good injector shop that has tons of EUI injector experience having a set built and matched is worth the cost,It's just hard to find a shop that will do that. Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #41 – August 08, 2015, 12:13:21 pm I had to crawl under my coach just now to look at an unrelated modification I made recently and noticed Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service apparently broke both grease zerts off my front universal joint cross and of course didn't fix it or tell me about it. I'm absolutely sure those zerts were there when I greased them at Ten-X campground the other day. The tow truck driver handed me the drive shaft and I looked it over to be sure all the parts were there and put it in a plastic bag. I asked Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service if I needed to grease my universal joints after they reinstalled it and they told me not to because they have a very specific procedure for reinstalling the drive shaft due to a previous lawsuit, and that they would grease it afterward. The broken grease zerts are shiny like they just happened. I drove straight to Bandelier after I left Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service and nobody else has worked on it or been under it except me just now. They can try to blame the tow truck operator but they told me they were gonna grease the universal joints and there's no way they could if the zerts were broken off. They didn't fix it or inform me the zerts were broken, which they certainly would have done if the zerts were already broken. I'll probably remove the broken zerts with an easy out and replace them tomorrow in the parking lot at a parts store. I don't really want Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service working on my coach ever again, even to fix all the stuff they broke. Now I'm wondering if the grease in the universal joint is contaminated with water and dirt. I noticed they're a member of the Better Business Bureau so maybe I'll file a complaint. I've never done that before. It probably amounts to doing nothing though. I called Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service a couple of days ago and asked them to order the injector hold down clamp that they broke and welded back together so I could replace it when I replace all my injectors. I haven't heard back from them yet... This place is really terrible so write it in your notes never to go there. Quote Selected 1 Likes
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #42 – August 08, 2015, 01:55:02 pm I have posted this several times but guess either no one reads it, doesn't believe it or won't stand up to the tow truck driver. You MUST order a set of hub covers (that match your axle bolt pattern) and NEVER let a tow truck driver pull the drive shaft. Some tow truck drivers actually know what they are doing but there are a LOT of lame ones that will cause you nothing but grief. Some think they know better...they don't.When the TT driver wants to pull one axle, make him pull BOTH. This is what the Dana factory mandates and the reason they sell the covers in matching pairs. The maximum work that has to be done is pulling every other lug nut so you can get the chrome cover off the axle face.Less than $40 buys a pair and peace of mind. See old posts for the website and ordering info.Pierce Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #43 – August 08, 2015, 09:47:59 pm Cordless impact and you'll have each axle out in 30seconds. Well, unless some jackass RTV it on instead of using a gasket like the monkeys that touched mine before I owned it LOL Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #44 – August 09, 2015, 11:22:12 pm I think I'll order new universal joints and change them both because they've got 104,000 miles on them and I have no idea if they were greased regularly by the previous owner. They probably were but now that one of them is likely contaminated or otherwise damaged I'm kinda paranoid it'll break right in the middle of a busy traffic circle at rush hour or on a narrow bridge... or more likely, way out in the middle of nowhere.The engine starts very rough now with at least one cylinder misfiring and a cloud of white smoke, so I get the feeling they really screwed up that injector install. It runs smoothly on all cylinders after it warms up though. I probably need to order a set of six new injectors, all the o rings, and both universal joints, and have Stewart & Stevenson redo the entire mess Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service made... (sigh) Quote Selected
Re: always carry a spare injector Reply #45 – August 10, 2015, 01:11:08 am Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – August 03, 2015, 10:40:02 amPerhaps that's because most every bus, boat, fire truck, generator, submarine had a Detroit 2 cycle in it and many still do. 3.5 million of the them built, 700K still going with Mercedes turning out new 8V-92TAs today. Many of your products are delivered today by a locomotive using a giant Detroit, the EMD-710 (710 cubic inches per cylinder-16 of them), considered to be the most reliable locomotive diesel ever made. CAT now controls EMD so they must consider it a pretty good deal. PierceHere's a page from the MTU website on the history of the Series 92 engines. Series-92: MTU OnlineAlso the world's most powerful diesel engine is a two cycle built by Wartsila. http://www.wartsila.com/ Awesome video. Jerryhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR3Yf_1qXfA Quote Selected
Topic: always carry a spare injector