always carry a spare injector

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always carry a spare injector

August 01, 2015, 03:08:35 pm

Here's the short version. Always carry at least one spare fuel injector, a service manual, tools (duh), enough oil to change your engine oil, and a new oil filter would be nice too.

Here's the long and emotionally painful version. While driving at slow speed I noticed a vibration that only happened while I was stepping on the accelerator, so I figured one of my fuel injectors was messed up. I was in the middle of nowhere on a Sunday afternoon so I continued with intentions to fix it later when I reached my new duty station. I work for the National Park Service and I just transferred from Glen Canyon national recreation area to Bandelier national monument. I stopped at WallyWorld to restock my groceries and during my customary preflight check before leaving I noticed a little oil spot under the crankcase breather tube. Foretravel uses the "Silver" 92 engine which doesn't leak oil like the old green Detroits did, so any oil spot under the engine catches my attention. I gave it some thought but didn't put the two symptoms together due to lack of experience and kept driving. The engine ran more roughly the further I went and soon I noticed the oil pressure needle bouncing as low as 20 psi. This distressed me greatly so I found a safe place and pulled over to check things out. I could see oil and vapors coming out of the crankcase breather and the engine was running rough, obviously with a dead cylinder. I shut the engine off to check the dipstick and found a very high oil level and it was badly contaminated with fuel. I decided to camp there for the night because it was a safe location completely off the highway in a truck weigh station the state no longer uses. The next morning I called for road service at 6:30 am and then waited all day long for the tow truck, which finally got me to the garage at 8:30 pm. I made the insurance company call the garage to verify that they really would change the injector on a two cycle Detroit Diesel before they sent the tow truck out. Never never NEVER allow your road service to tow you to a garage without first verifying that the garage really will fix your rig. Once the tow truck disconnects you have to pay for the towing to another garage if the first garage doesn't fix your rig. The entire second day was spent trying to get the garage to take the valve covers off and see what parts needed to be ordered because I knew they wouldn't have the parts in stock. One of my fuel injectors cracked and pumped fuel into the oil. They didn't get the valve covers off until after the cutoff time to order the parts, so I spent the third day waiting for parts to arrive. The fourth day was also spent waiting but the garage failed to inform me that their mechanic who knew all about two cycle diesels went on vacation so now they were waiting for someone to come in and teach them how to replace the injector. The fourth day they decided they did know how to replace the injector but they broke the hold down clamp on the injector while torquing it down. They couldn't get another one so they welded that one back together and installed it, tested it, and let me go. I wasted a week because I didn't have a fuel injector with me. The garage was Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service in Santa Fe. The people working there are very friendly. The owner was unbelievably rude to me, so much so that I pointed out to him how he had undone all the efforts of his entire crew. They completely gouged me on the parts and probably on the labor too. They charged me $1,000 for the injector, which they purchased from Stewart & Stevenson. I called Stewart & Stevenson and they quoted me $600 for that same injector. Filter Barn has that same injector for $200 with no core charge as near as I can tell. Hal Burns charged me $110 per hour plus tax which brings it to $119 per hour for labor. My total bill came to $2,640 and all I really got out of it was an injector, an oil change, and an education. Hal Burns wrote on my invoice that they broke the part but welded it back together and that they won't warranty that part. I asked about that but the owner got so hateful that I just paid the bill and left. I was about to say / do things I would be ashamed of and I'd like to think $2,640 isn't enough to be worth that... although I still said and did it in my mind... (sigh) ...Anyway, if you have the two cycle diesel in your U300 an injector change is super easy because you've got a DDEC engine and you don't have to do a rack adjustment like the older two cycle engines require. There's a special little tool that's used to set the height of the injector but it's possible to set the height with a caliper if you're careful. You do need a long wrench or cheater bar to turn over the engine crankshaft by hand, or perhaps a remote starter button that clips on the starter solenoid. If your injector cracks and leaks fuel into the oil you'll need 7 gallons of oil to do an oil change, and a clean oil filter would be nice too, but you can change just the filter later when you get back to civilization. I was told that cracked injectors aren't normal and that I'll probably never have this problem again. More often the little o rings leak fuel into the oil, so you should probably carry the little o rings too. There are tiny o rings on the little tubes that cross over above the injectors and there are bigger o rings on the injectors themselves. The new injectors come with the bigger o rings so you shouldn't have to buy those. To identify which injector or tube is leaking, change your oil, take the valve covers off one at a time and start the engine and watch carefully for the fuel leak as you let the engine idle very briefly. Don't let the engine run any longer than you need to because the leaking fuel will contaminate your new oil you just changed. Surprisingly there's very little oil slinging around when the engine is idling. I was thinking it would be like my Chevy small block V8 and make an oily mess running with the valve cover off. You will need a foot pounds torque wrench to install the new injector. You'll need standard tools, not metric. Preferably 1/2" drive sockets and I think a deep offset 1/2" box wrench or distributor wrench to reach one particular bolt. You'll need a feeler gauge set. I was watching the mechanics and making mental note of what was needed. I could have been on the road again the following morning before the tow truck arrived if I had that injector with me and I knew what I know now. I had everything else I needed with me including enough oil to do an oil change. I intend to purchase a full set of new injectors from Filter Barn or someplace affordable and change them all. I'll keep the new injector Hal Burns just installed as my spare. My friend who worked on the two cycle diesel boat engines at Glen Canyon told me after about 100,000 miles the injectors are starting to wear out and if I replace all of them together I'll see a noticeable improvement in power and fuel efficiency. I still need to order the service manual. The garage didn't have the service manual and the one mechanic who was on vacation was the only one who'd ever changed an injector on a two cycle engine before, but it runs fine and it doesn't leak fuel into the oil. I think if those guys could change the injector without a service manual or previous experience that I would definitely be able to change one beside the road with the service manual, especially after watching the other mechanics change one. When I do change the injectors I'll change out that part they broke and welded back together... So do yourself a huge favor and always carry at least one fuel injector and the other stuff you need to change it on the side of the road... I hope this helps someone who doesn't have a week and $2,640 to waste.

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #1 – August 01, 2015, 03:57:36 pm

Interesting story Scott, I wonder what the change interval is on a Cummins.

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #2 – August 01, 2015, 04:32:16 pm

Thanks, Scott, for the words of wisdom. Sorry to hear of your troubles, but glad you're back on the road.

It would be nice if we could carry spare parts for every possible scenario, but that is probably not practical. I guess you have to consider the cost of the part, how hard it would be to source the part if broke down out in the boondocks, and whether or not you would have the capability of changing the part yourself, or would need professional assistance. As you have demonstrated, simply having the part on hand could be a great time saver, if nothing else.

On your 2-stroke engine, does it require a special tool to pull the injector? I know our Cummins C8.3 does..so in addition to having spare parts on board, you also have to consider the specialty tool requirements of your particular power plant.

Just in case anyone is curious: Larryb - DODGE CUMMINS Cummins 12-Valve Injector Puller, 1994 to 1998.5

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #3 – August 01, 2015, 06:38:55 pm

I don't know if there's a prescribed change interval for any diesel engine. That would be a question for the manufacturer. It's possible low sulfur fuel may shorten the life of injectors but my friend said that hasn't been demonstrated to him in real life yet, only in "snake oil" advertisements. He did say the two cycle Detroit injectors are starting to wear out at 100,000 miles and that he's absolutely sure I'll see a noticeable improvement in performance and fuel efficiency if I replace all of them at once instead of one at a time as they wear out. The only special tool needed for the two cycle engine with DDEC is that little thingy they use to set the injector height, but they did it with a caliper instead and it runs just fine. I can't tell any difference in the smoothness of how the engine runs as compared to how it ran before this whole ordeal. Remember, these guys had never done this before and they didn't even have the service manual but yet it runs fine now with no fuel leaks in the oil. I think most people could change the injector on a two cycle Detroit with DDEC on the side of the road if they had the injector, the little o rings for the tubes, standard tools they should be carrying anyway, the special little injector height adjuster thingy would be comforting to have, and enough oil to do an oil change. The only physically challenging part is turning over the crankshaft by hand with a long cheater bar. I suspect a remote starter button hooked to the starter solenoid would work too so you can just bump the starter motor slightly a few times. If you have to turn the crankshaft over by hand it's a lot easier if there's someone on the top to watch the rocker arms move while you turn it. It would be time consuming to turn it a little, come back inside to check the rocker arms, then go back out and turn it a little more and so on. The service manual will explain the procedure. I'm gonna order one before my next road trip. Maybe I'll photocopy the pages and post them so people can see that it is possible to do this on the side of the road if you've got the injector... Unless you've got a week and $2,640 that you want to waste? ...I think injector problems are the most common malfunction in diesel engines so it really makes sense to carry at least one with you at all times. If your injectors are wearing out you might want to carry a full set and change them all together when the first injector quits.

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #4 – August 03, 2015, 12:24:00 am

I have friends that have spent more time fixing detroits than I've been alive. Anyway, the past 10+ years they've been getting bad injectors right out of the box even from detroit. So, be just be careful of what you buy.

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #5 – August 03, 2015, 10:40:02 am

Quote from: krush – August 03, 2015, 12:24:00 am

I have friends that have spent more time fixing detroits than I've been alive.

Perhaps that's because most every bus, boat, fire truck, generator, submarine had a Detroit 2 cycle in it and many still do. 3.5 million of the them built, 700K still going with Mercedes turning out new 8V-92TAs today. Many of your products are delivered today by a locomotive using a giant Detroit, the EMD-710 (710 cubic inches per cylinder-16 of them), considered to be the most reliable locomotive diesel ever made. CAT now controls EMD so they must consider it a pretty good deal.

How many Detroit 2 cycles have dropped valves?

Scott, just buy a Pro-Link 9000 and for half the cost of one injector, you can test to see exactly how they are working in real time, check about 40 engine operating parameters and adjust some. Total fuel mileage plus trip fuel mileage are easily brought up on the screen. All while sitting in the driver's seat. In checking 3 U300's, I have yet to find one with a weak or bad injector. Another member also has a Pro-Link and his injectors all look good. This instrument separates the wives tale fiction from the real world. Money is better spent adjusting the valves than replacing injectors.

Pierce

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #6 – August 03, 2015, 01:13:10 pm

All I'm saying is the "cheap" injectors may not be worth it.

2stroke medium/high speed diesels had their time. Back when fuel was cheap and noise didn't matter. Repower a 50foot boat from detroits to modern cummins or cat and the difference is amazing.

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #7 – August 03, 2015, 01:50:30 pm

http://www.baydiesel.com/assets/pdf/Night-Falcon.pdf

That is one good example of a repower. If you put a lot of hours on an engine, a four stroke engine makes a lot of sense for emissions, consumption, longevity, etc.

I like detroit two strokes, but I would never own one these days.

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #8 – August 03, 2015, 02:08:02 pm

OK, check your fuel mileage from new. We have averaged 7.9 mpg over the life of the vehicle using the DDEC computer data, not owner recorded mileage. This is mountain driving not plains states. The torque is greater and at a lower RPM than a 8.3 and the 6V-92TA is redlined at 2100 rpm not the 2200 of the Cummins. The complexity of the engine with so many parts as well as the assembly time made it not competitive with the newer engines but where price is not an object but performance is, makes application like the Coast Guard use it in the ocean bar aluminum rescue boats.

When is the last time you saw a CAT in a new highway truck. Not in California.

The two stroke advantage: http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/powerproducts/media/PProductsBroch.pdf

Pierce

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #9 – August 03, 2015, 02:44:25 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – August 03, 2015, 02:08:02 pm

The complexity of the engine with so many parts as well as the assembly time made it not competitive with the newer engines but where price is not an object but performance is, makes application like the Coast Guard use it in the ocean bar aluminum rescue boats.

Knowing the USCG is a government and military entity, I would bet that their bureaucracy and over-specification-ism is what has them still using detroits. Oh, and the fact that they are special and don't have to follow modern emissions rules that us common folk must follow.

EVERY, yes every, sportfish boat that has been repowered with a 4stroke has had significant improvement in all performance parameters. The detroit series 60 vs a 8v92 is not even a fair comparison to the 2stroke!

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #10 – August 04, 2015, 02:20:47 pm

If you want a quick way to find out which cylinder is mis-firing just take the temperature with an infrared non contract heat gun at each exhaust manifold stub where is exits the engine. Lower temp = mis-firing cylinder. I had a mechanic supervisor work for me that just spat on the manifold and the one that sizzled the least was the bad one. He could barely read or write but was one of the best mechanics I ever employed.

Keith

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #11 – August 04, 2015, 05:40:48 pm

Scott,

Sorry to hear about your bad luck. Hope all that fuel in the crankcase did not cause extra wear. Maybe an oil analysis would tell if anything is amiss.

Something similar happened to a Buick V8 I owned many years ago; bad gasket and diaphragm or both allowed the fuel pump to pump gas into the crankcase until the engine stopped. After repair it worked okay but thru a rod not long after. Diesel is a better lubricant than gas. I hate delivering this depressing news and hope the Detroit diesel hasn't been harmed.

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #12 – August 04, 2015, 07:11:46 pm

I asked about the fuel in the oil damaging the engine. Three different diesel mechanics who are very familiar with 2 cycle Detroits told me it didn't do any damage and that it happens frequently. The mechanic who took the valve covers off couldn't believe how clean I got the engine. He said a lot of guys put fuel in the oil intentionally to clean it out, but he had never seen one that clean before.

I climbed up over Blue Mesa on route 50 in Colorado the other day at full throttle the whole way and cleared the summit, and also the continental divide, exceeding the posted speed limit and not smoking. If I ever encounter a four cycle coach that can do that I'll take my two cycle engine to Stewart & Stevenson and have them turn up the horsepower to whatever it takes to beat any four cycle coach, but I'll never have to. I measured the turbocharger of a Series 60 the other day and it was a full inch smaller diameter than the turbocharger on my Series 92, and of course the 92 also has a roots type supercharger in series with the very large turbocharger for compound compression. A Series 60 is one serious engine. It's not like a little Cummins 8.3 liter. I have accumulated a bit of experience smoking million dollar four cycle coaches on high altitude climbs. I guess what I'm saying is I don't believe four cycle guys when they try to tell me their engine is superior, so please just stop. I almost didn't post this thread because I knew it would turn into another four cycle / two cycle argument.

Krush, bring your U270 up here to high altitude so I can smoke it up a steep mountain pass... I'm calling you out.

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #13 – August 04, 2015, 07:38:44 pm

That'd be a fund race, but you'd probably win. I believe you have more HP than I do. I've owned a 6v92 DDEC. I still own a 4-53. The 4-53 always starts right up and runs great. It's a super little engine, but it's LOUD! It'll run forever though. We're glad you like yours so much.

Another cause for diesel in the oil is the crossover pipes that feed the injectors. Often, monkeys overtighten them and crack the flares. I think there is a "new style" that is stronger.

You likely smoke the big rigs going up the hill because they weigh much more than you. Also, I learned this from my rear end gear changes---gearing matters greatly. The problem with only have 6 speeds (or 4, in your case??) is that the engine makes peak HP at a certain RPM and has a pretty small power range. 2200 RPM is where my 8.3 can make 325. Anything below that, and available HP drops off. This means for max hill climbing speed I need to be at 2200rpm. Well, this is right about 60mph in 4th gear (now that I installed 4.33 gears). I probably could go faster up some hills if I had more gears....but the jump to 5th gear causes too much of an RPM loss. A 10 or 13 speed would really be nice. The cummins dyno plot says mine engine is rated at 325 to 6,000 feet. After that, fuel should be cut.

Anyway, we all know some people love their 2strokes. I liked mine when I had it too.

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #14 – August 04, 2015, 09:08:29 pm

Scott,

The 60 series Detroit is long gone. It was not picked up when Mercedes bought Detroit Diesel. Mercedes still supports all legacy 2 cycles and makes new 8-92TA engines for government contracts and foreign sales.

Mercedes has spent 1.5 billion dollars developing a new series of 4 cycle engines see: Automotive Engineering International Online: SAE Technology Newsletter with the DD13, DD15 and DD16 in production and found in many interstate trucks. RVs are starting to utilize the new engines. There will be another new engine, the DD11 out shortly. If the engine is in a Mercedes truck/bus, it will have a OM-xxx designation otherwise a Detroit Diesel or DD on it.

We have some big gaps between gears with our 4 speeds compared to the 6 speeds so you have to be careful in choosing someone off. Also, we don't have wastegates on most of our 2 cycle Detroits so we start losing HP as soon as you leave sea level. Many Cummins do have wastegates so are able to produce sea level power up to somewhere around 8,000 feet. On the other hand...

Lots of good arguments to have around the campfire but none should be taken too seriously. Hey, RVing is fun and no matter what it looks like or what engine is in it so let's enjoy each other's travel experiences. Maybe something to give you guys a buzz before warming up the keyboard is in order.

Pierce

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #15 – August 04, 2015, 10:49:23 pm

Scott,
Thanks for posting your experience with this failure. Sorry it was such a pain in the wallet.
I've been expecting to replace my injectors but have not been able to find the part number online at all. The label on the engine list "0286 INJ DDEC II" but that has been no help. Found many Series 60, and mechanical injectors but not DDEC II.
Do you have the p/n for the injectors from your invoice?
You mentioned Filter Barn. All I can find is filters. How did do locate injectors?
Your friend that works on Detroits on boats: Has he worked on DDEC engines? (DDEC injectors might have a different life span)
Thanks,
John

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #16 – August 04, 2015, 10:50:33 pm

It's all in fun. But goodness....if I told my college car club buddies that I argued on the internet with back then and challenged races with that I am no doing the same but regarding RV's!!!!!!!!!! hahahahhahhaha

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #17 – August 05, 2015, 11:31:39 am

John you will need to remove valve cover and look at a injector there is a tag on it it will be 523**** DDEC II, III, IV look the same and will interchange. DDEC II injectors do not have a calibration code for them. The DDEC II ecm was not capable of using them. But you can use any in either of the platforms. I run DDEC II in my series 60 with DDEC IV ECM Running a DDECIII program for horsepower.But to find out what you have you pretty much have to look.

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #18 – August 05, 2015, 12:52:59 pm

Quote from: RRadio – August 04, 2015, 07:11:46 pm

Krush, bring your U270 up here to high altitude so I can smoke it up a steep mountain pass... I'm calling you out.

Im not krush, but next time I find myself out there, ill gladly take you up on the mountain pass race, just so we can have two rvs on the same stretch of road blowing past passenger vehicles and blowing peoples minds. No clue who will win.

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #19 – August 05, 2015, 02:23:14 pm

John,

Look at the Detroit Diesel sticker on the valve cover (several so you have to find the correct sticker). It will have the engine number. Call a Detroit Diesel service center with the number and they will give you the correct injector. You will need either a mirror (and read backwards) or a cell phone with a flash to read and record the engine number. Other option is to connect a Pro-Link to the port by the driver's seat and just read the engine number.

Reliabilt is the Detroit Diesel/Mercedes name for Detroit products. The rebuilding process is difficult as there are very few places that have the facility for rebuilding these injectors.

If you are having problems not getting all cylinders firing for a few seconds in cold or even cool weather, don't expect new injectors to remedy this. This can be from the fuel system leak down or several other reasons.

Again, using a Pro-Link 9000 will enable you to test the injectors either manually or automatically with the results listed on the LCD screen. It shuts off each injector, brings the RPM back up and sees what it takes to do this. The tests are done at idle or at 1000 rpm (or both) and are user selectable. You can also keep the Pro-Link connected to get a 1000 rpm fast idle when parked, etc. Testing the injectors is a NO BRAINER.

The life of boat injectors where our 6V-92TA puts out up to 620hp will be much shorter than our 350hp.

Original injectors in our 300SD with 440,000 miles of torture and an occasional bottle of injector cleaner so don't be in a hurry to replace yours without making sure that they need it. Lots of mechanics WILL tell you they need replacing but...

The fuel return lines from the injector can come loose and fill the crankcase with diesel. The Detroit seminars warned use to check and smell the oil level frequently to make sure it was using the normal amount and not "making" oil. They also said the Jake brake vibration can loosen them. I have never seen an injector crack itself. Dave M has done a lot of work on Detroits and may have some insight. Example of one forum with troubleshooting: http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=crawlers&th=77105

Photo below of our ID sticker. Yours should be the same and you can probably use the same engine number (but no guarantee).

Pierce

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #20 – August 05, 2015, 06:45:32 pm

I used the above serial number at P.C. Industries toll free 877.885.4724. The injectors matching this engine serial number are #5234985 and list for $280.02 each with a $175 core charge. Found a lot overseas but not much here so far or on ebay.

The bottom left hand number on the sticker is the good one. Unit 06VF196872 He didn't need the zero. He also said he would need the serial of each engine to be able to give an accurate part number.

Pierce

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #21 – August 05, 2015, 10:05:25 pm

Always wanted an 8v92 u300 until I drove the prototype unicoach with a breathed on series 60 Detroit.

Truck fleet owner thanked me for that coach every time I saw Charlie.

Peg the speedo up interstate grades.

Re: always carry a spare injector

Reply #22 – August 05, 2015, 10:14:40 pm

@ Stump: Thanks for the info. That's just the kind of information I was looking for. I would have never guessed you could mix and match the systems like you have on you truck.

@ Pierce: Thanks for the info. $280 is much better than the $600 at the DD dealer.
I didn't know which number they used on the stickers. I took pictures of both stickers on the engine back in 2002. BTW my engine is only 300 hp so it get worked even less. Do you know what "Advanced horsepower" is? For some reason mine lists 400 and yours 350 - maybe an emissions thing. Not that it matters, my 648 tranny can't handle any more.

The reason I was thinking of replacing the injectors because the engine seems to smoke more on acceleration than I remember from years ago. And I have had a couple of mechanics suggest I do it at 150k miles which I'm starting to get close to.