I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Topic: I think my DD 8.2 is toast. (Read 4600 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #75 – January 14, 2016, 12:01:27 am

Well, the coach is still in the mechanic's shop. Getting the front wheel bearings greased, front disc brakes cleaned, new front seals and now have to get a new Leece-Neville 130 Amp alternator ($332). They suggested an externally excited alternator from China for half the price but I said NO WAY, DAMMIT!!! I prefer something I could get repaired or replaced here in the USA.
They put in a new check valve, dosed the fuel tank with Biobor, and we will probably pick up the coach after the snow is off the roads--maybe Friday.

Total bill--around $1,600.

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #76 – January 14, 2016, 08:38:59 pm

Total bill: $1661.13 tax included.
Got the "skinny" on the check valve blockage and location.
My check valve is right before the primary filter. The check valve was plugged with what looked like rust flakes and the blockage went back about 3" into the fuel supply hose. They dosed the fuel tank with Valteck bio treatment--this, it turns out, in addition to my kill dose of Biobore! So we now have a full tank. The engine goes great, runs smooth and the pep it had before all this crap started is gone.
The new alternator keeps the batteries charged to 14+ volts. (sure looks purty!)
The front steering seems to feel tighter since they repacked the wheels. I don't know when, if ever, the previous owners ever had it done. New front wheel seals were necessary, along with new hub cap gaskets.
Coach and towed got absolutely filthy coming home. Covered with the road sand the county puts on the roads for traction. So bad that I absolutely had to wash some of it off---and it is 20 degrees outside!! Maybe I'm nuts, but the GV is our "baby" and we like it looking good!!
Tomorrow it gets the propane tank filled.
DW says I--I am not working on the exhaust or the LED mounting on the coach until spring!! Want to bet?

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #77 – January 14, 2016, 08:57:24 pm

Glad you got it home, the bill sounds reasonable it sounds like you have found the place to go. As for waiting till spring to work on it that would be burning up prime time to get some miles down. Up here the season is too short I wish I had access to work on mine during the winter.

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #78 – January 22, 2016, 03:55:54 pm

Quote from: nitehawk – September 29, 2015, 07:21:37 pm

Sure would appreciate any leads for someone to fix my boat anchor. It did run so well on our two trips to TX, and we do love the coach and the comments we get re it.

Nitehawk,

Further to Dave M's post, I think James owns a 1983?

http://beamalarm.com/foretravel-links/models/1983_foretravel_ftx_ored_specifications.html

If I'm right, and if the brochure info is correct (a lot of "ifs," I know), then when you need help in the future, make an appointment with Tennessee RV in Knoxville: (865) 933-7213. We realize, of course, you're a good distance away from Knoxville.

Tennessee RV has done good work for Susan & me. I'm overdue posting details and a "thanks" to the Forum. The owner, Roger Sellers, also owns one or two Foretravels. Tennessee RV was one of the seven factory-owned Foretravel dealers, before that structure changed. So, they're not the average RV dealership.

Hope this is some help. Brett, if I'm wrong about specs, then my bad — correct me. You're a huge asset to the Forum and know a LOT more than I ever will.

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #79 – January 22, 2016, 04:06:27 pm

Thanks, Richard, but I have been in almost weekly touch with James. He is an awesome resource for the 8.2 engine information. We got our coach back last week Thursday and it runs absolutely great now. But, because of the steel fuel tank I am going to have to keep an eye on the check valve and the suction hose preceding the valve right before the primary fuel filter. All the filter changes (

I made were a waste of time and money because the flakes of rust plugged the check valve and never got to the filter. So, 16 to 18 filters and 35 gallons of diesel fuel and an entire season without venturing out with the coach down the drain, not to mention all the worry and over $1661.13.
Sure is nice to look out and see the coach and know it is ready to go now!! Really getting impatient for spring now.
DW has ANOTHER cast on her right leg again--for another three weeks.

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #80 – January 22, 2016, 04:15:58 pm

Quote from: nitehawk – January 22, 2016, 04:06:27 pm

All the filter changes ( I made were a waste of time and money because the flakes of rust plugged the check valve and never got to the filter. So, 16 to 18 filters and 35 gallons of diesel fuel and an entire season without venturing out with the coach down the drain, not to mention all the worry and over $1661.13.

So? Now you know. As I recall, you thought the coach was trashed, NOT.

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #81 – January 22, 2016, 04:18:36 pm

With your tank rust issue, short term answer may be to find an in-line screen that you can put in the fuel line between tank and check valve/primary fuel filter. 30-50 micron or even screen material would be fine. Clear bowl would allow you to see when you need to service it.

Long term, there are companies that "line" steel fuel tanks-- probably more common on boats than RV's. But around the Great Lakes, probably could find someone to do it. Very likely the rust is confined to the bottom and perhaps an inch or two up the sides (where water would settle in the tank). Doubt water got any higher in the tank, and diesel is a pretty good rust preventive. The exception may be upper part of the tank if stored with low fuel level. One of the reasons to always store with full fuel tank-- minimize condensation.

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #82 – January 22, 2016, 04:45:43 pm

Funny thing was the fact that when I drained the tank (out the bottom/thru the pipe plug hole) I got almost zero flakes or algae. I would open the drain plug and let the fuel run into a 5 gallon pail and have the DW turn on a 12V pump to draw the fuel up into a jury-rigged pail that I put a piece of pipe thru the bottom but the top end 1" up from the bottom of the pail and clamped some screen onto the opening. This pail & pipe fed into a 55 gallon plastic barrel. I did this in order to ascertain if I had water or algae or whatever draining out. Nothing in any quantity at all. Just a few very small flakes but the fuel was cloudy from the Seafoam additive, so I thought that was my problem.
Come spring I think I will do what you recommend, Brett, put in a serviceable filter before the check valve.
Just darn good common practical sense and I sure do appreciate the advice!
Just another demonstration of how valuable an asset Brett, Gary, and the rest of the Foreforum folks are!!

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #83 – January 22, 2016, 04:50:24 pm

Lining steel tank also common when restoring old neglected motorcycles

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #84 – January 22, 2016, 04:58:29 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – January 22, 2016, 04:18:36 pm

The exception may be upper part of the tank if stored with low fuel level. One of the reasons to always store with full fuel tank-- minimize condensation.

It's a big deal in work boats up in the PNW, as well. Most switch over to stainless tanks and add anti-algae as needed. We never used it, HOWEVER, we changed the lower filter every 3K!

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #85 – January 22, 2016, 04:59:30 pm

Is this line the suction line to the fuel pump?

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #86 – January 22, 2016, 08:23:54 pm

Quote from: mike leary – January 22, 2016, 04:58:29 pm

It's a big deal in work boats up in the PNW, as well. Most switch over to stainless tanks and add anti-algae as needed. We never used it, HOWEVER, we changed the lower filter every 3K!

I suspect you mean aluminum. Stainless steel and diesel do not "play well with each other".

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #87 – January 22, 2016, 09:57:55 pm

Wondering what the issue between stainless and diesel ? know stainless works great with gasoline, so all ears, Thanks

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #88 – January 23, 2016, 07:43:16 am

Quote from: Dave M – January 22, 2016, 09:57:55 pm

Wondering what the issue between stainless and diesel ? know stainless works great with gasoline, so all ears, Thanks

Dave,

I don't know the chemistry behind it, but in our boats all tanks except diesel are stainless steel. They will not make or install stainless steel for diesel (at least in the 1990's when we were having boats built).

Hopefully someone with a chemistry background can chime in.

A google search turned this up (but no explanation as to why):

This from a firm that specializes in marine tanks: Custom marine fuel tanks for recreational, commercial crafts, U.S. Coast...

"Owned and operated by John Gallo since 1978, we are the foremost provider of custom marine tanks at the Jersey Shore. Building for both recreational and commercial crafts, including U.S. Coast Guard inspected vessels, we provide the highest-quality custom-made aluminum gas tanks, steel and aluminum diesel tanks, to ensure your safe and prompt return to the seas and waterways.We also fabricate stainless steel water and holding tanks."

Notice only aluminum and steel, not stainless steel for diesel.

So, I join you in being "all ears" for the chemical reasoning behind it.

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #89 – January 23, 2016, 09:05:25 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – January 22, 2016, 08:23:54 pm

I suspect you mean aluminum. Stainless steel and diesel do not "play well with each other".

Yes, I did make a mistake. The work boat tanks, if diesel, ARE aluminum!

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #90 – January 23, 2016, 10:05:30 am

"Aluminum alloy 5052 H32 is a popular choice for fuel tanks as it contains adequate magnesium content to allow the material to be pliable enough to meet the needs of the manufacturing process. The majority of diesel tanks manufactured today are made of steel; however truck operators may elect to choose aluminum fuel tanks when replacing older tanks on their vehicles. Aluminum offers advantages of lighter weight and resistance to corrosion."

This quote is from Wikipedia and does not give any chemical reasons other than what is noted.
JohnH

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #91 – January 23, 2016, 05:07:41 pm

Thanks, just another tidbit of info that I enjoy. I had food grade stainless tanks built for my MCI fresh water ,& grey tanks, 180 @ 120 gal. Will remember that about diesel @ stainless.
Copper fuel lines should not be used for diesel fuel.
Thanks all.

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #92 – January 26, 2016, 06:58:55 am

Virtually all offshore oil and fuel transport tanks are 500 gallon stainless steel,these are the tanks that transport fuel from
land to the platforms.They sit on crew boats and are constantly splashed with salt water.Not sure of the blend of steel but they
seem to hold up good.Have also used stainless steel for fuel lines for years and have never seen or heard of a problem.

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #93 – February 07, 2016, 10:02:31 am

I don't think there is a chemical reason behind this, it was more an ABYC guideline. Being an industry group that sets standards adopted as law, their reasoning probably has more to do with cost than functionality. This is the same bunch that claims crimps are better than solder and heat shrink, and from a production efficiency and profit standpoint they are right. The USCG dutifully echoes their recommendations. It would be a competitive problem if one boat mfg started advertising their superior vessels using stainless tanks...

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #94 – February 07, 2016, 02:44:40 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – January 23, 2016, 07:43:16 am

.....................I don't know the chemistry behind it, but in our boats all tanks except diesel are stainless steel. They will not make or install stainless steel for diesel (at least in the 1990's when we were having boats built).

Hopefully someone with a chemistry background can chime in....................

Brett/Dave,
Aluminum vs. SS Diesel Fuel Tanks:
It is not a "chemistry" issue but a "metallurgy" issue:
SS Diesel Fuel Storage Tanks are now approved by Coast Guard and ABYC.
Must be 316L or 317L SS (L = Low carbon content)
Must be 0.074 or greater thickness, IIRC
No 304 SS is allowed
To meet CG Specs., the chemical composition of the SS must be traceable because foreign imported raw SS materials have become unreliable and have to be treated as suspect.

Both SS and Aluminum tanks must be kept dry on the outside, with free air circulating about them. Both materials depend upon a passive corrosion skin layer for long term corrosion protection. Either tank composition, with a damp porous material or wetted surface in contact with it, will suffer from Oxygen starvation and local corrosion will lead to eventual failure.

5000 series aluminum is good for fuel, both gas and diesel and for waste water. The advantage of aluminum is it's easier to fabricate, much lighter in weight and less vulnerable to cracking caused by vibration when mounted on a moveable platform.

Even though much more expensive to fabricate and much heavier when finished, "Food Grade" stainless steel tanks are still commonly used for water tanks because they impart no taste or odors in the water. But, SS is highly vulnerable to "weld-heat-affected-zone," stress corrosion cracking, and crevice (esp. vibration induced) corrosion cracking. But, common sense tells us that leaks in water tanks are far less catastrophic than leaks in failed fuel tanks.
Welded stainless steel tanks don't like point loads, vibration or poor quality control in the welds such as poor weld backside inerting. Improperly inerted, a SS weld will always "sugar" as the weld zone metal composition changes and impurity crevices are formed. These microscopic weld flaw crevice sites become corrosion sites. Those lead to galvanic corrosion cells, that become auto catalytic and rapidly accelerate the corrosion site to failure.

So, although SS is much stronger, the raw materials are more expensive and SS is much more expensive to fabricate. Therefore, SS is fourth or fifth on the list of desirability.

Rotationally formed polyethylene tanks are the least expensive, are impervious to ethanol and other corrosive attacks and are the most widely used in smaller tanks. But they suffer from lack of structural strength, baffles and machinable ports/bosses for fittings and service. So they are far less desirable in larger tanks.
Thus, where moveable platform strength and lower cost matters, most big diesel fuel storage tanks continue to be made from Aluminum. When raw material and (proper) fabrication costs are no object, 316L, 317L SS and Monel are the choice for strength and longevity.
Neal

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #95 – February 07, 2016, 02:47:42 pm

Excellent, Neal.

Thanks for the indepth explanation.

Brett

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #96 – February 07, 2016, 07:52:48 pm

How clean is your air cleaner?

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #97 – February 07, 2016, 08:51:12 pm

The filter element in my air cleaner I replaced less than 5000 miles ago. The air cleaner was never the problem. The problem was rust and algae flakes in the suction line right before the check valve. The line is 5/8" Inside diameter and the chips had backed up around 3" into the suction line. Had 1# of fuel pressure at the fuel rail. After replacing the check valve and removing the blockage the fuel pressure is now 75#.
A week ago I started the coach--after it had sat for two weeks--without using the block heater, and it started right away in 27 degree temps!!
The problem has been solved. I believe most, if not all, of the loose flakes are out of the system, seeing as how I had totally drained the fuel tank and still had the problem until the suction line and check valve were cleaned.
I have now installed the alternator/battery monitors and the new rear LED 17" long additional tail lights and everything is working great.
Oh, by the way, the air cleaner indicator reads a nice bright green.

Re: I think my DD 8.2 is toast.

Reply #98 – February 09, 2016, 11:09:52 pm

Norm, it's a bit late to get to Texas for winter 2015-16. However, Texas can pretty nice in the spring. Come on down during "bluebonnet season," then get back home for that nice northern summer. Pack up Rocket and the Demolition Lady and roll!

It's great that your engine is not "toast." I sounds like it was just starved for fuel. Fuel is relatively cheap now, so feed the machine and enjoy the adventures.

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