Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Topic: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need? (Read 1463 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #25 – August 17, 2017, 06:40:44 am

Talk to Cody at AM Solar re your questions, we just went through that last week on my coach.
He can give you exact answers and his advice.
Output of Victron in pass through is a factor in which way you go. I believe it is less than 50 Amps.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #26 – August 17, 2017, 09:58:21 am

Victron Multiplus 12/3000/120 internal transfer switch is 50 amps.

Victron MultiPlus 12 Volt / 3000 VA / 120 Amp Pure Sine Wave Inverter/Charger

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #27 – August 17, 2017, 10:19:02 am

I stand corrected! I will check with Cody and se what his concern was, there was some wire size or capacity that was going to drive up complexity of install - he was talking about removing one of the two transfer switches and internally using the Viltron, but there was some reason that it was more complex than just switching out the ProSine for the Victron.

Tim Fiedler

Sure Start Soft Start

TCER Direct generator-gas-prod 630 240-9139
Gen-Pro

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #28 – August 17, 2017, 10:45:06 am

The Magnum MSH 3012M has a 60 amp transfer switch, but I don't see the point of using it lieu of the built in one under the bed since there is no way to use a single inverter to run everything in the coach. This option would also involve rewiring the breaker panel and the inverter sub panel. Much easier to install a new transfer switch in the original location if needed. Besides, running wire of sufficient gage from the output of the inverter back to the breaker panel would be a significant challenge without access to the trench that Fortravel used to feed the cable under the floor in the bedroom. I plan on adding a few circuits through an additional sub panel closer to the inverter location by running an additional 10 gauge cable between the Magnum Mini-Panel (where I connected the original 10 gage output cable) and the additional sub panel. These extra inverter circuits will have outlets in the living room/kitchen area.
Don

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #29 – August 17, 2017, 12:32:15 pm

I discovered that not all coaches have a second transfer switch. The second transfer switch in our coach switches power to the sub panel from one of the 50 amp legs of the landline or generator to the inverted output of the inverter/charger. On our Prosine this was closer to 20 amps and the wiring is sized for that. If you want to use the transfer switch in the inverter you need to supply sufficent power through big enough wires and then wire back to the sub panel also with sufficient sized wire. This lets you bypass the OEM second inverter.

Romex style wire would need to be #6, maybe #4. This is a flat cable with very stiff solid copper wires. SOOW type cable would be a 6/3. Much more flexible but in a big single cable. You might be able to use individual #6 welding cable, very flexible but I am not sure of the code for using this in individual wires with 120v. You have to be careful with lots of wires in close proximity. Heat reduces capacity rating.

Tight fits through the cableway in the BR floor, maybe easier with the earlier wiring out. I have already added cables in there so it is tighter. Use cable lube.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #30 – August 17, 2017, 01:15:25 pm

Thanks Roger, that was the issue with my coach, opted to leave in second transfer switch

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #31 – August 17, 2017, 01:17:47 pm

Based on the new info from posts above, and independent research, I will not use the Victron built in transfer switch. I will instead use the existing auto transfer switch system and current associated 120 volt wiring runs. I will upgrade the 12 volt wiring size from house batteries to inverter.

I will leave the existing separate house batteries and chassis batteries with the existing battery combiner, Trik-L-Charge, front dash boost switch, and existing generator auto start system as I don't envision using gen auto start anyway.

I won't add a battery monitor system to the chassis batteries. Trik-L-Charge should keep me good, plus boost switch if needed. I may re-wire the See Level monitor for voltage/grey/black/fresh to be wired to the chassis batteries instead of house batteries. That would give me daily readings on chassis battery voltage.

As full-timers, our coach is never unattended for any length of time, and never in storage. Even if it was stored, the solar and Trik-L-Charge should maintain both banks with the little electrical load in storage.

Thanks for all the help. More comments always welcomed.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #32 – August 17, 2017, 01:33:48 pm

You may change your mind on the monitor. More info than voltage...

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #33 – August 17, 2017, 01:39:59 pm

Quote from: Tim Fiedler – August 17, 2017, 01:33:48 pm

You may change your mind on the monitor. More info than voltage...

The house batteries we will definitely use the Victron Battery Monitor System. (We used Trimetric on our previous coach).

Are you running BMS on both chassis and on house? My first thought is the chassis batteries have little load when parked, and the Trik-L-Start should maintain them(?)

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #34 – August 17, 2017, 02:13:22 pm

We use 702 for house and led in lighter receptacles for chassis. Works for us.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #35 – August 17, 2017, 05:29:51 pm

I boondock 100% of the time. Have 500 watts on the roof, six 6v golf cart batteries with a Pro-Fill watering system, a 50 amp charge controller and a $39 750 watt modified sine wave inverter. I only hooked up one AC circuit to my inverter (tapped into it under the floor of the closet where my controller and inverter are located) and I disconnected that circuit in the control panel.
This coach was made with a converter and no inverter. It has a gas stove/oven and I use generator to run the the microwave or anything else that requires more than 750 watts.
*My house batteries have never been below 12.3 volts. The solar panels are directly above this closet and the batteries are directly below it.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #36 – August 17, 2017, 05:34:03 pm

Is there a penalty in available functions if the Victron transfer switch is not used?

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #37 – August 17, 2017, 06:55:41 pm

Quote from: Lon and Cheryl – August 17, 2017, 05:34:03 pm

Is there a penalty in available functions if the Victron transfer switch is not used?

Only thing I can think of is possible increase in transfer time (in milliseconds) by using existing ATS. "Might" cause satellite receiver and other 120 volt electronics to drop out when turnig generator on and off, requiring reset and program reload. A small UPS system would overcome that.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #38 – August 17, 2017, 07:00:51 pm

I wired my victron in as was my prosine.. when shutting off generator or shutting off generator it swaps power effortlessly from either direction and I do not lose power connection from any electronics connected. So no UPS needed

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #39 – August 17, 2017, 07:20:29 pm

If you leave in the existing transfer switch to take advantage to the 50 amp connection from the main panel when on land line or generator then no power from the Victron nor any of the extra power from the inverter is used. When the land line or generator power is cut the existing transfer switch switches to the feed from the Inverter and the Victron transfer switch switches form the 120 v feed through (not used) to the inverter.

So you have two transfer switches in series. The OEM transfer switch in our coach with the Prosine was fast enough coming off land line power but not coming off the generator. So I was using a small UPS for the coach computer and network stuff.

I think the issue coming off the generator is the power from the generator is not abruptly cut like it would be shutting off the 50 amp circuit breaker. In our coach it just seemed slow. And the change over to inverter was not quick enough. Maybe it was just the Prosine.

All of that is now on a fulltime Victron 800 VA Phoenix inverter powered line. Much less need for the UPS. It can be switched to the Victron Multiplus as well in which case that circuit is now land line powered if available.

I am seriously considering redoing my wiring from the main panel to the inverter and back to the sub panel to take advantage of the boost function and eliminating the second slower transfer switch.

My UPS was about $40 at Amazon with a good warranty.

Cable trench...
Ours runs on the pass side from under the bottom of the stack of drawers to the corner of the space at the end of the bed. There is more room in there than it sesm but FT pulled all of the 120v and 12v wires pretty tight and several of the 120v wires are taped together. We have still managed to get data cables from our EMS electrical box and the Sterling battery charger as well as a pair of #4 12v wires through there of the solar charger. Wire lube and patience help immensely.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #40 – August 17, 2017, 10:48:17 pm

Quote from: Don & Tys (AKA acousticart) – August 17, 2017, 10:45:06 am

Besides, running wire of sufficient gage from the output of the inverter back to the breaker panel would be a significant challenge without access to the trench that Fortravel used to feed the cable under the floor in the bedroom.

Mine is a year earlier than yours so they may have changed things but you can access that "trench" in mine by removing the furnace vent/duct in the bedroom and it is right there. I've pulled a number of cables through after finding it.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #41 – August 18, 2017, 12:00:47 am

Hitting on an item from your original post: You offered hybrid inverters as your possibilities. Have you researched how the hybrid system works, and do you have any specific draws/draw combinations that would benefit from running a hybrid inverter system? Most of us don't. If you are in that same boat, you may want to consider going with the standard pure sine wave versions offered by either company at similar continuous wattage ratings.

I originally ordered the hybrid MHS3012 you mentioned, but was talked out of it by the guy who did my solar install (and fulfilled my inverter order). He convinced me to go with the MS2812 (magnum standard pure sine wave inverter) - DESPITE the fact it was cheaper and he would make a little less money from me as a result. He said the hybrid inverters have a slightly higher failure rate, and that the MS2812 has proven to be bullet proof and lasts forever. Now I have no idea if that is true, but given this guy had been installing solar systems for 20+ years and would make less money off me if I followed his advice, I felt pretty good about it (after doing some of my own internet research to confirm, of course!

).

As for your other question: We replaced the inverter when we did the solar. But given the location of our inverter, I don't think this saved us any time overall. It was essentially two different jobs that just got finished in the same week. If you need to run two new monitor lines to the interior for the new inverter display panel and/or a charge controller meter, then I could see the benefit of doing them together. But we were able to re-use the existing 'telephone wire' on the old displays for the new monitors - which isn't that unusual.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #42 – August 18, 2017, 06:20:04 am

Ok I am the neophyte in this discussion, and I may be way off here but doesn't the hybrid function cover this. The DSC panel has a dial and led read out that is used to set your current flow and then the system instantly draws on the battery's to insure consistent level power. When set at lower levels I can watch the Stephs hairdryer draw from the battery's and you don't even see the brief dimming you see in S and B. If I use the highest setting, where it is in the picture, meaning no battery draw, and turn off the gen set we do note the interruption. If I turn it off with a lower setting it appears to be seamless.

Be gentle because if you speak in EE, I and I am sure some others won't be able to follow.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #43 – August 18, 2017, 11:28:30 am

I'm really not sure how the hybrid inverter affects the transfer of power when turning off an on the generator. Here is my understanding - anyone who knows more feel free to chime in and correct me.

The primary difference is a single power source vs. multiple power sources. There are also some charging benefits, but our battery banks are too small and charge in too short of a timespan for it to make a discernible difference (the charging benefits are primarily only applicable in residential applications).

A traditional inverter allows you to access one source of energy at once. If the generator is on, the inverter passes power from the generator (but not the batteries). If you're plugged in, your power source is shore power.

A hybrid inverter allows you to access multiple power sources at once. If you are running the microwave and your generator can't quite handle the load, the hybrid inverter will also draw from the battery to help out the generator.

When is this useful? If you are running a Honda 2000W generator - the Honda 2000 has a standard mode for full power, and an economy mode for fuel economy. Just a hypothetical scenario: Your huge Microwave and the DW's industrial-size hair dryer might run fine individually on the Honda's economy mode, but if you want to have them both on at the same time, you would need to go outside and turn the Honda 2000 on full power mode. With a hybrid inverter, you could just leave the generator in economy mode, and the inverter would just use the battery power for a few minutes to help provide the extra power that the generator can't quite handle.

How does this affect FT users? Most of our generators are very generously sized - in the 6-12 KW range. Those of us plugged into shore power consistently have access to 50 Amp. Unless you literally turned on every A/C, every light, and every kitchen appliance you own all at once, this is enough power to run everything in your coach without needing a supplemental source. So the Hybrid technology would go unused.

However, if you only have access to a 15/20 Amp outlet for an extended period, or if you frequently use a small portable generator rather than the built-in huge generator, then the Hybrid technology may be beneficial to have. Depends on how you use your coach!

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #44 – August 18, 2017, 12:01:22 pm

James,

I may be repeating something already covered in this thread - if so, please excuse.

At AM Solar they offered me the Hybrid Magnum inverter, which I declined in favor of the MS2812. When they were explaining the benefits of the Hybrid, they covered two scenarios. One was exactly what you just described: using the house battery bank in conjunction with the generator during periods of heavy loads. But as you say, surely not a common occurrence with our big generators.

The 2nd situation is what you touched on in your last sentence: you are camping/parked in a place with marginal shore power sources. They made it sound like this is WAY more likely to happen to Foretravel owners. Like a campsite where they only have a 30 amp circuit which is being heavily abused by the other campers, or worse yet in a relative's driveway where they can only offer you a common 15-20 amp household outlet. In those cases, especially if you want to run one (or both) A/C units, then the hybrid inverter comes into play. It augments the feeble shore power hookup with juice from your battery bank, and it seems to you just like being hooked up to 50 amp.

However, like you said, it has been our experience that situations where the hybrid technology would have been used are few and far between. We have (so far) been quite satisfied with our traditional inverter.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #45 – August 18, 2017, 12:52:56 pm

I believe the hybrid inverter/charger will only supplement your shore power or generator, on inverter loads, as it cannot see the directly wired loads like electric aqua-hot element or your air conditioners. You would have to wire these loads through your inverter panel to use the hybrid feature. It would be worthwhile to wire one air conditioner through your inverter panel if you only have a 15 amp circuit to plug into and want to run one ac only. It would supply some power on ac startup and you would not trip the 15 amp breaker. You would of course have to program the inverter properly so it does this.
Unless you have a pretty massive battery bank with solar charging, do not think running two ac's on a 15 amp circuit is practical.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #46 – August 18, 2017, 01:26:06 pm

We use Thousand Trails (TT) campgrounds between 1/3 to 2/3 of the year most years. About half the time in TT we are on 30 amp hookups not 50 amp.

We are pretty good about monitoring usage to stay under 30 amps total. For instance running one air con not two, turning electric element off on Aqua Hot when Splendide is in drying mode. Watching loads when DW uses hairdryer. However I could see a Hybrid on rare occasion kicking in some battery power boost.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #47 – August 18, 2017, 02:06:33 pm

Those posts are consistent with my understanding of our hybrid. Thanks for the clarity. So running both ACs on 30 at the house etc. was understood and I thought that might also protect onboard equipment in our 270 from temporary voltage sagg.

It was not the primary reason I went with the 3000, integration was, but thought ok another cool feature.

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