Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

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Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

August 16, 2017, 01:29:27 am

Looking for opinions from those who have updated inverters and/or added solar, or who have studied the issues.

In November or December I will likely install solar on our coach (sourced from AM Solar in Oregon). I will use AM Solar for product sourcing because we will be within 60 miles for several months while at the Escapees Sutherlin Oregon park. Easy parts runs and no shipping with me picking up parts.

When I install solar, is there any reason to change the current original Prosine 2500 Inverter at the same time? Or just wait until some time in the future the current inverter fails, then change over at that time? Inverter working fine right now.

Would you chose the Magnum Energy MSH3012 hybrid 3000 watt Steady State: 3000W 5 Second Surge: 3900W 90 percent efficiency,

or the Victron Multiplus 12/3000 hybrid 2400 watt? Steady State: 2400W Surge: 6000W 93% efficiency

Magnum Energy MSH3012 Magnum Energy MSH3012M Inverter Kit

MultiPlus 12/3000/120-50 120V VE.Bus Inverter/Charger Victron Multiplus 12/3000 Inverter Kit

We have three AGM 8Ds installed in May 2013.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #1 – August 16, 2017, 08:20:27 am

Parasitic draw is high on your prosine. Not pure sine wave. Why not swap it out on your timetable, not its timetable? Victron probably the better choice , magnum slightly easier install (can use the. RJ11 wire from prosine for magnum display, victron requires Ethernet cable, so you have some extra install hassle Magnum parasitic draw slightly higher than victron I believe victron is Lithium Ion ready, did not ask if Magnum was

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #2 – August 16, 2017, 08:30:50 am

I have only experienced the Multipass upgrade and the 2000. When you design your system decide what the final step looks like in your updating. AM can guide you on the controller. If you are going to use the Victron controller, it is well worth your while to grow into an all Victron system. Talk to Mitchell or Garret before you purchase and be clear on your desired end system.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #3 – August 16, 2017, 08:32:30 am

Dan,

No need to replace inverter unless you want to. Lots of people still running the ProSine with solar.

As Tim points out you there are advantages to changing out but you can do later. If you do go with Victron I'd use their solar controller along with their monitoring displays. From what I've seen they look first class.

see ya
ken

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #4 – August 16, 2017, 08:33:40 am

+1 on the Mitchell and Garrett recommendation. Make sure you bring in your coach and have Cody give you tips/advise on install as well

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #5 – August 16, 2017, 08:38:48 am

Victron $2k or less at AM Solar. Well less at BayMarine. Might get $500 for a working Prosine. 60 watts vs 17 watts parasitic draw as I recall. If you have time and $$, do it sooner than later

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #6 – August 16, 2017, 10:23:34 am

Everything is still OEM after our solar installation years ago. Working fine except for the slow microwave to heat coffee/milk. The Midnite 150 is the only thing added to the electrical system.

Pierce

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #7 – August 16, 2017, 11:16:02 am

viltron price comparison

BayMarine:

Victron MultiPlus 24 Volt / 3000 VA / 120 Amp Pure Sine Wave Inverter/Charger

AM Solar:

MultiPlus 12/3000/120-50 120V VE.Bus Inverter/Charger

$300.00 less at bay Marine

That being said, I just had 540W put on roof of my coach, left ProSine installed into the 2015 (Qty 3) 8d's.

In future I will add a similar amount of solar to the roof, some L-16's in propane bay and a Victron 1200W Pure sine wave inverter to power Residential Refrig and electronics outlet up front. Drawback of Victron 1200W Inverter is that it does not have an onboard 115V charger, so will need to have another way to charge L-16's via 115V. TBD

Roger Engdahl has two battery banks and is the inspiration for this approach.

If I was not going to do two banks, I would have put 1K+ solar on roof and changed out Inverter at this time. Then when my house batteries eventually died, I would have went with Qty 4 8D's, three in original location and one in propane bay replacing the propane tank.

Roger kept his two burner propane stove and has put four L-16's in the propane bay along with an 11lb vertical propane tank. very neat and clever.

I have induction cooking in both the S&B homes, also use the one burner induction in the coach. WAY prefer induction to gas, so will probably eliminate the propane stove all together in next year, build in the two burner 115V induction unit and then free up all that space (take out huge propane tank I have not filled in 5 years and still is 50% full) for second battery bank and as previously stated, more solar on roof.

when the 8D's die or when the Prosine dies, I will replace Prosine with Victron. Maybe Li Ion if price seems right at that point.

If i still own the coach. On that note.:

I will go to Q this Jan., Mexico in Feb, and points southwest this winter. AK next summer. May sell at that point and buy a trawler to explore Puget Sound for a few years instead of FT ownership, so not sure how long I will have this coach after next summer. TBD.

But may keep FT for winter and get trawler for summer, and rent out the Gig Harbor house for a couple of years. Assuming health is stable of course!

I digress.... sorry.....

Tim Fiedler

Sure Start Soft Start

TCER Direct generator-gas-prod 630 240-9139
Gen-Pro

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #8 – August 16, 2017, 11:54:39 am

I am trying to get my project notes posted here but internet is very slow where we are and pictures are not loading.

In the meantime it is on our blog
Home2 with Roger and Susan – Every Day is an Adventure

Simple project at first glance and in concept. Much more complicated in the details. There are many options, what I chose is only one. But I worked through almost all of them on paper.

900 watts on the roof, max somfar was 5.2 KW in one day. About twice normal. Using an induction cooktop is a major draw that needs to be taken into account. We are running the refrig and electronics on a Victron 800VA inverter. It is like having them all on an uninteruptable power supply.

The Victron Multiplus can switch 50 amps with its own internal transfer switch. Extremely fast. To switch 50 amps you need bigger 120 volt wiring from the main panel and the sub panel. If you do that then the Multiplus will slow or stop charging and invert 12 volts to add power when needed to the sub panel circuits, nice if you are on 30 amps. Another option. This lets you idle the second transfer switch if you have one. Something I am thinking about.

Victron solar and Multiplus seem to play well together. The charger will go to zero and let solar do what it does when you are hooked up.

I chose Victron for integration, support from Bay Marine, price and warranty. Absolutely no regrets.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #9 – August 16, 2017, 12:09:35 pm

I know it might be blasphemy, but hey, generator needs exercise! Will run 1-2 times a day if needed for cooking while boon docking.
Have two burner propane camp stove for outside cooking as well.
Induction is 1800 watts max at 115v. Yes, a big draw!!

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #10 – August 16, 2017, 12:27:24 pm

Quote from: Tim Fiedler – August 16, 2017, 08:20:27 am

Parasitic draw is high on your prosine. Not pure sine wave.

Just a nit, but the Prosine is a pure sine wave inverter

It might be worth seeing if replacing the inverter at the time of doing solar allows the expense of the inverter to be included in the solar tax credit calculation....

IIRC, auto gen start with the Victron controller is simpler (just need a relay) than with the Magnum (need to wire in the Magnum AGS module).

When pricing the inverter, controllers, etc., check Bay Marine's topic in the Commercial Listings section. IIRC, Alan gives Foreforums members a discount.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #11 – August 16, 2017, 12:32:23 pm

Michelle -

I defer to your knowledge, I was only quoting AM Solar in saying that Prosine was not true sine wave - the Pro-Sine documentation states Sine Wave, perhaps just picking a nit at AM Solar - not sure why they told me that - maybe to try to sell an inverter

I was led to believe by my accountant that yes, labor and "associated" equipment does qualify for the solar, including replacement of the inverter. Check with your accountant for what he/she is comfortable with claiming.

Tim Fiedler

Sure Start Soft Start

TCER Direct generator-gas-prod 630 240-9139
Gen-Pro

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #12 – August 16, 2017, 02:37:49 pm

I left the original Xantrex 2500 Inverter in place when adding solar. It does have a large parasitic draw, but it's only on when needed (Nespresso, toaster, etc..) The electronics are connected to a secondary small inverter which is only on 24/7 when in anticipation of a prime sporting event. You don't want to arrive back at camp and have to wait for the satellite box to start up and miss part of a Nascar race or world series or NBA finals game or superbowl or something. Otherwise, that's also off except when needed.

The big Xantrex inverter will get replaced when it dies or when it seems economical to go to lithium batteries and potentially run AC off of them. And since it is rarely on, it will probably last awhile.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #13 – August 16, 2017, 03:11:20 pm

Same here, except I have yet to add the small inverter for the TV and stuff like that. But i really know when I forget to kill the big inverter overnight, seriously low battery with nothing on.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #14 – August 16, 2017, 04:52:46 pm

I will continue to research inverters and solar chargers. The advice is helpful.

Some background:
- We have three AGM Deka 8Ds installed in May of 2013. I plan to keep these until aged out (on my previous coach, 7 each Deka AGM 31 series lasted 11 years before replacement). Once 8Ds aged out functionally, if Lithium price points have improved greatly, install lithiums then. If still pricey, then new 8D AGMs again. Our 8Ds are in center of coach with no outside door access.
- Still have original Prosine 2500 Inverter.

When dry camped we will run the inverter 24/7 (residential fridge and CPAP machine). I have little to no desire to add more (small) inverters for fridge, CPAP, TV/Sat Receiver.

We are full-timers, usually on shore power, 50% on 30 amp, and 50% on 50 amp service. Our primary dry camping is when at Naval Air Station Key West military campground, where we dry camp up to 6 weeks multiple times in high season, then get 2 weeks hookups, then back to dry camp. (rotations system full hookup to complete dry camping)

I see no reason to change the existing ATS system with a ATS built into a new inverter. (?)

I see no need for generator auto start in a new inverter. (?) As full-timers, and with solar, I don't see the need? And shouldn't the existing dash mounted gen auto start still function w a new inverter installed anyway (or is it wired through the Prosine)?

I plan to install 1080 watts panels, possibly more at later date if chosen controller can handle it.

Two methods from perusing AM Solar website, and a phone conversation with them:
- Install two Blue Sky SB3024 controllers (max 640 watts each), into one monitor, add temp sensing and shunt for amp monitoring.
-- advantage is true battery temp sensing, one display panel good for multiple controllers and amps in/out.
-- "maybe" easier programming and monitoring ?

- Or instead install one Victron 1150watt/85 amp (or 1400 watt/100 amp controller for $100 more over 85 amp).
-- No temp sensing from battery to controller. Controller has temp sensing built in, but wont be in battery compartment (?)
-- Add Victron BMV-712 for battery status monitoring (amps in/out etc) (does have hard wired monitor)
-- Built in blue tooth monitoring and programming of controller (?)
-- Is a hard wired solar controller monitor still needed? Any advice?

Inverters, 2 primary choices:
- Magnum MS2812 2800W Surge: 3900W charger 125 amp (or) Magnum 3012 3000W Surge: 3900W charger 125 amp
-- easier install using existing cable from inverter to monitor location
- Victron 12/3000 2400W Surge: 6000W charger 120A
-- Possibly more integrated with monitoring (?) More lithium ready in future (?) Bluetooth ready (?)

And is the Victron color monitor worth $600 if doing Victron solar controller and inverter? Or really more viable and worthwhile once Victron Lithiums are installed?

Lots of considerations and questions. I appreciate comments from those more knowledgeable than I.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #15 – August 16, 2017, 05:20:05 pm

If running residential and cpap, do the inverter immediately. Have AM Solar show you what it takes just for parasitic draw o. The prosine when running 7/24 (as you do with residential) Parasitic load on prosine will take a large % of your daily solar capacity, victron 30% of prosine 2.5

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #16 – August 16, 2017, 05:36:04 pm

Quote from: AC7880 – August 16, 2017, 04:52:46 pm

I see no need for generator auto start in a new inverter. (?) As full-timers, and with solar, I don't see the need? And shouldn't the existing dash mounted gen auto start still function w a new inverter installed anyway (or is it wired through the Prosine)?

The AGS that's OEM in the coach will start when the batteries get low, but the type that are integrated with the Magnum and Victron inverter controls are much "smarter" - much easier to program for things like desired voltages, run times, quiet hours, AND (check both, I'm pretty sure on the Magnum AGS) if the interior temperature of the coach gets to the point you might need to run the air conditioner for the kitties when you're boondocking or if the shore power goes out.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #17 – August 16, 2017, 06:10:05 pm

I just placed a order for a Victron system with solar, with Alan at BayMarine.
Alan has been a HUGE help in assisting me and drawing out my installation.
I spent about 2+ hrs on the phone with him while he went through every part of my installation to make sure everything I needed was in the order and the correct size.
THE BEST!

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #18 – August 16, 2017, 08:15:04 pm

Speaking of Alan (Bay Marine Supply)... They have started carrying "Soundown" engine compartment insulation. I couldn't find anybody on the west coast that carries it, any shipping that stuff is pretty pricey. Alan decided to start carrying it after I and and one other regular customer asked after it. He has it in 2", 1.5", 1" thicknesses. I chose 1.5" as that seems to be what was originally there and the steel frame under the bed support is made of 1.5" angle iron. I had hoped to be able to share my engine compartment installation before our Canada trip, but the trailer roof project (at our home base) has taken all my time... other than the minimum work on the coach to hit the road. Anyway I got as far as stripping the old stuff off and buying the necessary amount of 1.5" thick sheets and installation bits. Soundown looks like the real deal... quality product. So I guess the bed will be hotter after a days drive this trip

Don

Quote from: Lon and Cheryl – August 16, 2017, 06:10:05 pm

I just placed a order for a Victron system with solar, with Alan at BayMarine.
Alan has been a HUGE help in assisting me and drawing out my installation.
I spent about 2+ hrs on the phone with him while he went through every part of my installation to make sure everything I needed was in the order and the correct size.
THE BEST!

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #19 – August 16, 2017, 09:09:27 pm

Dan, you can have separate controls an monitors for each device. If you are in the Victron world they all integrate into the color control GX including the BMV 702. Everything in one place. It is not really $600 more because you are not buying the individual parts. It is a choice. One display shows everything. Very nice.

Using two smaller solar controllers each on half of your panels might work OK but you have to have more solar panel fuses, more switches, more battery end fuses, more cables and more connections. And size everything to maximum possible voltages and amps. Don't undersize anything. For your anticipated panels 85 amp controller is about minimum.

The Victron MultiPlus 12/3000/120 recommends two 2/0 plus and minus cables and is set up with four posts to wire it that way. 2-2/0 cabkes are just slightly larger than a 4/0 cable. Your current inverter probably is wired with 3/0 cable. More possible amps in and out of the inverter. I just helped another install a Xantrex 2800. We used the original 2/0 cables to the minus side and a new 4/0 cable to the plus. This is another place to absolutely not undersize things.

The Prosine 2500 was a real energy hog. In my testing the inverter used as much power idling as the refrigerator used. About 70 watts. My Victron 800VA Phoenix used about 7 watts at idle or 2 watts in the monitor mode.the Victron Multiplus idles at 10-20 watts depending on operating mode.

All of this is a choice. Planning and good information are critical. Keep learning and asking.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #20 – August 16, 2017, 10:35:30 pm

The one piece of my system that I originally almost passed on was the CCGX. It would have been a big mistake. Doesn't matter if you go lithium, as I did, or not. I would also go wifi instead of Bluetooth if you use a jet pack or similar in the coach. You can check it from anywhere on your phone.

The battery bay comment is probably associated with lithium. My battery compartment is now an electrical bay as there are no corrosive fumes. The 702 shunt, temp, controller, switches etc are all in there together. The Multipass is on the other side of the right hand, aft, wall. (Could have squeezed it in but wanted room for a third 200 if needed) Making all runs very short.

Several have commented on waiting for lithium to drop in price. It might drop some but the price point is not from technology or production. It is the supply of lithium.

#18 Don I used Soundown in the generator compartment. You are right it is a quality product. Easy to work with and does produce as advertised. I am getting ready to order it for under the bed and the use the half inch thermal sheets on the sides and go over the old. Septembers project.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #21 – August 17, 2017, 12:54:35 am

I have decided to do the Victron charge controller and inverter, at the same time.

Inverter:
- Victron MultiPlus 12/3000 inverter 120 volt 2400 watt steady state w 120 amp charger
- Victron Digital Multi Control 200/200A monitor (Edit: delete this - not needed with the Victron color control GX)
- Victron MK3-USB Interface

(Edit: delete this - not needed with the Victron color control GX w wifi)
- Misc wiring.
-- Will current coach 12 volt wiring from inverter to batteries suffice? (not too bad to upsize wiring this location).
-- How about the 120 volt household wiring? (I do not want to run new wiring to rear bedroom main and inverter sub panel)
-- Use existing ATS, or have Inverter take over that function? (if even feasible)

Solar:
- 6 each SF-180 solar panels with mounts and wiring (1080 watts)
- Combiner box for roof
- Victron MPPT 150/100 amp controller (only $100 more than the 85 amp version - possible future growth)
- 2 gauge wiring, misc breaker/switch etc
- Victron battery monitor BMV-712 smart
- Victron temp sensor feeds to the BMV above
- Victron color control monitor kit ($$$)
- CCGX WiFi module simple (Connects to the Victron Color Control GX monitor to provide wifi communication ability)

Am I missing anything major or overlooking anything? We already have a Trik-L-Start to maintain chassis batteries. Three 8D Dekas May 2013 should be fine for a while.

We had a unexpected cash windfall, so I plan to source all from AM Solar as we will only be 60 miles away for several months, versus price shopping components and shipping. We may well hire AM Solar to install it all as well (though earliest dates are late Nov or into Dec). The 30 percent tax credit will help greatly with overall cost.

Thanks for spending the time to help me figure it all out,

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #22 – August 17, 2017, 01:11:53 am

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – August 16, 2017, 09:09:27 pm

.................
The Victron MultiPlus 12/3000/120 recommends two 2/0 plus and minus cables and is set up with four posts to wire it that way. 2-2/0 cables are just slightly larger than a 4/0 cable. Your current inverter probably is wired with 3/0 cable. More possible amps in and out of the inverter. I just helped another install a Xantrex 2800. We used the original 2/0 cables to the minus side and a new 4/0 cable to the plus. This is another place to absolutely not undersize things.
...........................

I need to think on this some more. Looks like easy and pretty short 12 volt cable run from inverter to batteries on our 2003 U320. Any recommendation on the cabling other than above?

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #23 – August 17, 2017, 01:44:32 am

Dan,

You might consider going to 4/0 (from the OEM 3/0) from your batteries to the common + and - points near the front batteries behind the white panel on my coach and then from there two sets of 2/0 cables to the Multiplus. It is all set up for that. Easier to thread the 2/0 cables.

If you are not using the Victron transfer switch then the existing 120 v wires should be OK. If you are then these need to be upsized to carry 50 amps.

Using the existing transfer switch leaves you with the 50 amp feed from the main panel when you are on landline or generator. Otherwise you need to go 50 amps from the main panel to the Victron and back to the subpanel and disconnect the OEM transfer switch.

You can add a BMV 700 and shunt to monitor the start batteries.

You should have fuses of an appropriate size between the panels and the Victron BlueSolar charge controller. Rather than combining on the roof and having a big box up there and then bigger wires down to bigger fuses, consider a six slot automotive style fuse block, solar wires connect to the fuse side and the combined output (appropriately sized for amps and volts) goes to the Victron where voltage is adjusted to 12 volts and then the plus side through a switch and to a fuse at the battery. Neg just goes to the battery.

If you are using the WiFi option or a direct Ethernet cable to connect to a PC then you shouldn't need to have a Victron MK3-USB Interface.

With the Color Control GX you will not really need the Victron Digital Multi Control 200/200A . The CCGX does all of it.

The Victron Multiplus has a Start battery charger built in.

Your 8Ds don't have the capacity they had when they were new. My three Lifelines are probably 80-85% of what they were when new 6 yrs ago. How much power do you need overnight? Assume fully charged and then draw for 12-16 hrs. Will you make it on your capacity now? With a res refrigerator just barely. It is not just about how much solar you have but how much reserve capacity to do what you want to do for how long? Solar doesn't help much if you hit 12.2 v at three in the AM.

Re: Change inverter model at same time when doing solar? Or no need?

Reply #24 – August 17, 2017, 05:12:26 am

I found the old 120 wire so stiff and difficult to work with for my hands that we used boxes and ran marine tinned single strands from there to Multi. (No fun with the Progressive EMS either).

I have both the DSC and the CCGX and used the Mk. Adapter. In short I stayed with the kit they sell. I don't come anywhere near the expertise of the engineers and other pros on this site. In fact the installation was my first electrical project. I needed to stay with the simplest path possible. At the time the Multi was installed you could only use a PC. It wasn't in the install instructions and we are Apple folk. I hit this point on a Saturday and after more time than seemed possible cursed my electronics, my cyber ignorance and Victrons parentage only to find out Monday morning the only way to get in is PC.

The 270 had one transfer switch so no help there but I sure did look for the second one because it was on my schematic.

You will be running several cables etc. This for me was the most time consuming and frustrating part of the install. I also installed a small bus bar in the overhead area and pulled wire for an inverter for residential should we go that direction. Anything that avoids doing that again.

Nice to be 60 miles away from AM instead of 2300. Good luck and I know you will enjoy the upgrade.

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