Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Topic: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help' (Read 3118 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #50 – October 02, 2018, 08:36:55 pm

Agree....... this post is almost off the rails.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #51 – October 02, 2018, 09:29:14 pm

Quote from: Tony – October 02, 2018, 07:53:36 pm

I think we all need a group hug here!!!!!

It does need to get back on track.

No hugs needed. This is simply a discussion on why certain design decisions were made on our coaches and the consequences of said decision & why hasn't it changed. Vis a Vis isolation of the wet bay & holding tanks.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #52 – October 02, 2018, 10:43:59 pm

I own a 21 year old sob. It's a 1998 Country Coach Magna on a Gillig real bus chassis.
The quality of this coach still amazes me and costs next to nothing to own.
I looked at a few FT but either had issues or severely over priced. If I were to get another coach ft would be on my short list.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #53 – October 02, 2018, 10:51:19 pm

Sold a lot of country coaches. The other quality coach. We were a dealer

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #54 – October 03, 2018, 02:38:08 am

Ca Bob might attest to this. Not often, but more than a few times, a customer would trade in a problem RV, the next owner would have no problems, and love it and vice a versa

Not in all cases discussed here, however expectations do set us up for disappointment. One of my best two weeks in an RV was ten years ago waiting for the correct hydraulic pump part waiting for a part from Europe for my Monaco Signature, finally located with the help of the German pump mfg from a dealer on the other coast of the US. We explored from Orange County to Malibu during that 2 weeks from Dec 15 to Jan 1st. We had an absolute ball. We still talk to others how much fun those two weeks were. (Another story from that same 2 weeks, Monaco shipping me the wrong $2000 part, stalling me out on a refund, and filing for bankruptcy, and so I was OUT. I still would not trade the experience my wife and I had those two weeks, for $2000.) Also 2K was nothing, as CA Bob says spread out over the years and miles we enjoyed in our two Monaco Signatures, or the friendships made. The orig owner of the Monaco owns an aluminium machine shop and made the rain guard for my FT. I appreciate his friendship.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #55 – October 03, 2018, 01:29:37 pm

Jack I miss some of my old friends from Oregon. Susan graham, dick Crandall, don fults, don Kelley, dick Martin. I see where Susan is. Any idea of the others?

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #56 – October 04, 2018, 02:24:11 am

Quote from: Caflashbob – October 03, 2018, 01:29:37 pm

Jack I miss some of my old friends from Oregon. Susan graham, dick Crandall, don fults, don Kelley, dick Martin. I see where Susan is. Any idea of the others?

Bob Rvs, Bob this is a big small industry. Alot of common friends. Tomorrow I'll send a PM and we can talk by phone. Great forum we belong to.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #57 – October 04, 2018, 12:45:00 pm

The design flaw from 20 years ago was indeed maybe a bad flaw, But we now have to ask ourselves, Is there a recommend remedy to this flaw that will eliminate this flaw......that does not cost an arm and a leg?

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #58 – October 04, 2018, 01:16:43 pm

Quote from: Tony – October 04, 2018, 12:45:00 pm

The design flaw from 20 years ago was indeed maybe a bad flaw, But we now have to ask ourselves, Is there a recommend remedy to this flaw that will eliminate this flaw......that does not cost an arm and a leg?

The $64,000 question.

I was thinking about that and thought that "if" one had to remove the wet bay to expose the bulkhead. I wonder if it would be possible that upon reinstalling the holding tanks, pumps and such. Would it be possible to spray it with a layer of bed liner.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #59 – October 04, 2018, 01:16:58 pm

Quote from: Tony – October 04, 2018, 12:45:00 pm

The design flaw from 20 years ago was indeed maybe a bad flaw, But we now have to ask ourselves, Is there a recommend remedy to this flaw that will eliminate this flaw......that does not cost an arm and a leg?

There are several posts on replacing the floor and the costs associated. It won't eliminate the design, but will start you where it was new. If you are aware of the problem water can cause and keep watch for any water leaks, you will be fine. If your coach is like mine, 19 yrs. old and no issues, just prevent any water leaks to keep it that way.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #60 – October 04, 2018, 01:41:12 pm

Drill drain holes in the bays , drill drain holes just above the tubes in the vertical panels near the ends , blow oil into the bottom tubes, seal the fasteners into the tubes, spray with rustoleum, etc.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #61 – October 04, 2018, 01:55:58 pm

Quote from: bigdog – October 04, 2018, 01:16:43 pm

The $64,000 question.
I was thinking about that and thought that "if" one had to remove the wet bay to expose the bulkhead. I wonder if it would be possible that upon reinstalling the holding tanks, pumps and such. Would it be possible to spray it with a layer of bed liner.

Sure. There are thousands of possibilities of what to do with making the tubing rust and corrosion resistant both on the exterior and interior. One of the best would be to get rid of the bottom plastic covering and install a series of 48" vinyl/plastic/aluminum sheets to go across the bottom and each panel to be removable to allow easy access to the tubing. PVC Sheets are standard sizes of millwork. They are typically 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, or 1 in. thick and 4 ft. wide. Standard lengths include 8, 10, 12, 18, and 20 ft. In this case, 3/8" might be perfect for the job.

Pierce

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #62 – October 04, 2018, 03:22:44 pm

Those of us who worked for Foretravel long ago would resent the idea in your title that Foretravel did not care. SOB's I worked with did not care much past the sale to their dealer.

Out of my stores budget that I made 10% of I spent $75k the first 12 months fixing out of warranty customers coaches.

Factory agreed. Turned my store around volume wise and went from 25 new to 59 in two years.

Every single time I,offered an improvement they changed their production.

The Fores were a heavily religious family and they truly believed in their product and to do it as best as they and their staff could produce.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #63 – October 04, 2018, 05:04:09 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – October 04, 2018, 03:22:44 pm

Those of us who worked for Foretravel long ago would resent the idea in your title that Foretravel did not care. SOB's I worked with did not care much past the sale to their dealer.

Out of my stores budget that I made 10% of I spent $75k the first 12 months fixing out of warranty customers coaches.

Factory agreed. Turned my store around volume wise and went from 25 new to 59 in two years.

Every single time I,offered an improvement they changed their production.

The Fores were a heavily religious family and they truly believed in their product and to do it as best as they and their staff could produce.

My sediments exactly Bob, as a former Foretravel Employee. Thanks for your comment.

I know they didn't think of it as a design flaw. I believe they thought they were doing everything to keep water out.

One thing I know for sure, Ray Fore got a new coach of any model change, and drove it for a while, before any changes were put into production. If a switch wasn't in a convenient place, or whatever, it was changed.

Chris

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #64 – October 04, 2018, 08:10:48 pm

Cm ánd Marie also had new coaches. Invariably green. Yuk

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #65 – October 04, 2018, 08:21:15 pm

I think it's completely absurd to expect these coaches to be rock solid twenty plus years down the road from manufacture. Who could have forseen these problems? What car, house, airplane is without issues at this stage of life? To accuse the manufacturer of cutting corners is a low blow....it's a testament to the manufacturer's integrity and committment to quality that these fine coaches continue to survive even with the relatively minor and solvable problems discussed.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #66 – October 04, 2018, 09:06:27 pm

Interesting to see that this thread is still alive.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #67 – October 04, 2018, 10:18:49 pm

Simply put.
20 days old or 20 years old the water issue was and is the same. If a new 1998 Foretravel upon it's very first trip had a water leak in the wet bay that accidentally went unnoticed. It would have leaked from the wet bay into the belly then into the unprotected bulkhead area. That has been my point. Yet folks here say la de da It's better than an SOB. Then say how dare I say anything negative about Foretravel.

I drive a nice Mercedes. But I have been all over them (via a class action suit) because of the crappy design of the aircon evap coil in the cabin. It's is in a vertical position. So it stays wet and I constantly have a moldy smell. I think that is a faulty design. Should I just write it off because Mercedes is better built than Some Other Brand of car. I think not. plain and simple, It's a crappy design. Yet I still like it.

I know that items can wear out and break. I have never once said that I expected my coach to be perfect.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #68 – October 04, 2018, 11:04:20 pm

These were not made in Japan by Lexus. I promised every customer new and used that there were things wrong the day they took it home.

If they did not continue to smile after that statement I have passed the deal several times and referred them to my competitors right next to me in Traveland,. The grief was not worth it for them or me or for the club.

Rving is a dice roll. I offered my opinion that if the customer wanted a perfect hobby that they should take up stamp collecting.

Absolutely true that I told customers all the above.

No major design flaws on our old ls460. Amazing build quality. Same as our sc430.

I have been yelled at across my desk a few times and after a few minutes I said "let me see that smile" almost all broke and smiled finally. Esoecially as I had warned them prior to the sale. In a nice grinning way. Plus I totally fixed their issues and they could and did call me 24/7/365.

Rving is not for everyone

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #69 – October 04, 2018, 11:05:56 pm

I think that one of the reasons the coaches have held up well for a number of years, is that Foretravel was very liberal in their use of caulking on all of the basement floor penetrations. The metal frame below, while not galvanized or stainless (I wish!), was primed with a red primer. Also, the basement floor is not a porous material so the only way for water to get through is through penetrations, damaged fiberglass, or along the edges if the fiberglass skin is not well adhered to the steel. The caulking generally is effective, but chronic exposure to water combined with vibration and flexing going down the road would eventually cause it to fail. I think the design could have, and should have addressed the water infiltration issue better, though probably not as easy as everyone seems to think. Drain pans under the tanks with sleeved penetrations through the basement floor and some strategically placed duck bills perhaps... Anyway, I think Foretravel got most of the design stuff right. That said, I doubt if there is anybody on this forum who was more negatively impacted by the issue of water infiltration into the basement framing than I was. Still, I love our coach and feel like the design choices Foretravel made that affect way it drives, handles twisty roads, and especially the downhill speed control provided with by the retarder, more than make up for the bulkhead issues and two years it took me to remediate the issue on our coach. Now, I would love to go back in time and be put in charge of certain aspects of production of these coaches... but if that was the case, nobody would have been able afford them and FOT would have likely been put out of business.

Somewhere in this thread or the one that spawned it, someone wondered if the insulation was closed or open cell. The rigid styrofoam insulation that FOT used does not absorb or hold water, however, it does melt in the presence of diesel... The plywood used to add hard points for attaching accessories such as reels, water pumps, etc. does hold water and that is what did the steel in under the wet bay in our coach. I guess my point is, the basement framing isn't exactly unprotected, though it could have been done more effectively for the long term.
Don

Quote from: bigdog – October 04, 2018, 10:18:49 pm

Simply put.
20 days old or 20 years old the water issue was and is the same. If a new 1998 Foretravel upon it's very first trip had a water leak in the wet bay that accidentally went unnoticed. It would have leaked from the wet bay into the belly then into the unprotected bulkhead area.
I know that items can wear out and break. I have never once said that I expected my coach to be perfect.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #70 – October 04, 2018, 11:16:40 pm

Quote from: bigdog – October 04, 2018, 01:16:43 pm

The $64,000 question.

I was thinking about that and thought that "if" one had to remove the wet bay to expose the bulkhead. I wonder if it would be possible that upon reinstalling the holding tanks, pumps and such. Would it be possible to spray it with a layer of bed liner.

I am not sure what shop, or when, repaired mine, however, that is exactly what was done to mine. I will try to add a picture. Before buying mine, I knew of the issue, all my bulkheads were tight, below slide outs, slide trays, and underneath were all sprayed with bedliner, going up the walls about 10 inches. It continues to look very clean with it's glossy black, dimpled surface.

Re: Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

Reply #71 – October 05, 2018, 06:42:47 am

I know wel all have our thoughts and issues with our coaches and sometimes they are ecxpensive. I had to have both my slides pulled to fix delamination that is on the 99-01 coaches slides. Design flaw was the wrong mastic being used but I too had 370k mikes and 17 years of fun owning my coaches. Nothing is pert and low volume manufactures have a harder time finding issues but they are usually much better built. I think we have discussed this issue and nothing more can really be added other acrimony towards posts. There are legitimate issues brought up here but the entire industry deals with it. So let's shut this one down and get back to helping each other out.

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