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Topic: Alternator, Isolator or both? (Read 3073 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #40 –
Quote from: Fuzzy62 –
I'll continue with the isolator upgrade and parts replacement on the isolator board. If this Chinese alternator burns up, Oh Well! I'm considering adding B2B chargers in the future. We'll research the forum for answers first...
Lithium Upgrade

DC/DC Isolation Charger

Lithium battery build 542AH 50

Another lithium upgrade.

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #41 –
I looked back through your old posts and see you installed the LiFePo batteries over a year ago.  Apparently you have been using the old original isolator and alternator since that time.  This may have been what killed the old alternator?  I don't know enough about lithium batteries to answer that.

The links in the post above offer a number of solutions to integrating LiFePo house batteries and AGM chassis batteries.  For the most part, this requires replacing the battery isolator with something different.  At this point in your project, I think you should wait on installing the ArgoFET isolator, and think about returning it for a refund.  Use the money towards purchasing a more appropriate charging device that will work with the two different battery types on your coach.

There is a simple solution that would get you back in operation while you plan your next move.

First, do not install the ArgoFET isolator.  Connect the alternator output cable to the chassis (start) battery cable.  Both these cable ends were connected to the old isolator, so they are located in close proximity.  Just tie them together with a nut and bolt and carefully insulate the connection to prevent shorts.  This will let you use your new alternator to charge the chassis batteries.  It will also eliminate the need for a EXCITE wire.

Second, use your existing solar controller and (when plugged in or running generator) your inverter/charger to keep the LiFePo batteries charged.  I assume they both have appropriate settings for this type battery.  Unless you do a lot of boondocking, this should work fine.

With this setup, your battery banks will normally remain totally separated.  If for any reason you must combine them, you can use the BOOST switch.

This is how I run our coach electrical system.  We do not use any kind of battery isolator.  It works fine for us!  NOTE: All of our batteries are AGM.

Delco Remy 28SI Alternator Installation


Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #42 –
Quote from: Fuzzy62 –
...If this Chinese alternator burns up, Oh Well!...
This alternator may work fine...just a word to the wise for anyone considering an alternator upgrade or any other parts...need to be extra careful buying replacement parts.

Be wary of wording that says Delco "type" or Delco "equivalent" or "for Delco xxxx" or "replaces Delco xxxx".

Search for the actual Delco mfg PN 8600307 (for the 200 amp 28SI) and look for "manufacturer: Delco-Remy" and the Delco-Remy logo.

Delco only makes a 160, 180 and 200 amp 28SI. Anybody selling higher 240 amp or 270 amp "28SI" alternators is not selling genuine parts.

Expect to pay more for genuine parts. A surprisingly low price usually means a clone of the original part.
 

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #43 –
There should be no reason not to use a Delco Remy (actual or copy) alternator.  It only uses the sense wire to boost the alternator voltage a bit when the start batteries are at a lower voltage (like right after you start). After a while, it will calm down back towards 14v.  The only small wire to connect to it is the sense wire coming from the start batteries. Do not use the excite wire.  It is only used for modified alternators that need an external voltage to start working.

A Victron ArgoFET isolator is a great one if both sets of batteries are the same type.  It is not a good choice if one set is lead and the other is LiFePO4 batteries which will take as much charge as you can give them, bad for the batteries and bad for the alternator.

A better choice is a Battery to Battery charger.  With these you need no isolator, the B2B charger is the isolator.  The output from the alternator charges the start batteries and connects to the input side of the B2B charger.  The output from the B2B charger connects to your LiFePO4 batteries and provides multi-stage charging to the batteries. It will not overcharge your LiFePO4 batteries or overwork your alternator.  Victron makes 30 amp B2B chargers, you can use more than one of them in parallel, Sterling makes a 60 amp version.

BattleBorn suggests a maximum charge rate of 20% of your total capacity to achieve the longest possible battery life (measured in charge cycles). At this maximum rate, they have achieved over 5000 charge cycles.

A second choice if you have a large LiFePO4 battery capacity is to use BattleBorn's charge isolator (BIM, I think it is called). It is similar to a B2B charger sharing the alternator output with the start batteries and the input of the BIM.  The output goes to your LiFePO4 batteries.  The difference is that it works with a timer, on for a while then off for a while. No multi-stage charging, just on with all your alternator will provide and then off to let the alternator cool off and the batteries to catch a breath after a long hard guzzle.

Be careful with your LiFePO4 batteries, lots of money tied up there, They can be overcharged or charged too aggressively which compromises their long-life capability.

You can still have and use (sometimes) a boost switch for an occasional start aid.  If you need it frequently then it is time to go through the start wiring and start batteries.  In general, you should not have to use the boost switch for starting if start batteries, start battery wiring, and the starter are in good condition.

I would suggest not using the boost switch or a manual switch to combine battery bank when they are different battery types (lead and LiFePO4). If you need to combine battery banks choose a smart voltage sensing relay combiner or any of the other "smart" devices.  A manual device is combining battery sets with significantly different resting voltages and chemistries.

Roger

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #44 –
Replace the heavy duty solenoid that is hiding behind the front removeable panel next to the front door. Pull out on both sides on the BOTTOM to get at the solenoids at the bottom. Use your multimeter to determine when it ACTIVATES when you energize it by turning on the ignition key. If it has been intermittently failing, it will cause ALL KINDS of WEIRD PROBLEMS. Change it now to avoid future problems.  BUY "TWO" as they fail about every 100K and you will be prepared.
Regards

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #45 –
Quote from: Jon Twork –
Replace the heavy duty solenoid that is hiding behind the front removeable panel next to the front door. Pull out on both sides on the BOTTOM to get at the solenoids at the bottom. Use your multimeter to determine when it ACTIVATES when you energize it by turning on the ignition key. If it has been intermittently failing, it will cause ALL KINDS of WEIRD PROBLEMS. Change it now to avoid future problems.  BUY "TWO" as they fail about every 100K and you will be prepared.
Regards


And make sure you get a  CONSTANT DUTY solenoid of at least the rating of the old one.  Here, higher rating is good.  Many of us have gone with a much better version: Solenoid L-Series - 250A 12/24V - Blue Sea Systems

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #46 –
Think one reason not to use a Delco "copy" would be crappy quality,even if someone has had "good luck"with one it is not the same.

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #47 –
Quote from: wolfe10 –
And make sure you get a  CONSTANT DUTY solenoid of at least the rating of the old one.  Here, higher rating is good.  Many of us have gone with a much better version: Solenoid L-Series - 250A 12/24V - Blue Sea Systems
What happens if (when) this solenoid fails? Looks like one week from Amazon for the Blue Sea. Reasonable replacement usually available from NAPA?

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #48 –
Quote from: morninghill –
What happens if (when) this solenoid fails? Looks like one week from Amazon for the Blue Sea. Reasonable replacement usually available from NAPA?

There are several solenoids in the coach, performing different functions. Basically, solenoids are used to turn on/off higher loads than you want a switch to handle.  That way the switch only "switches" the signal of a few amps, not high loads.

The IGNITION SOLENOID supplies all circuits that energize with the ignition is turned on. So, if it goes out, the Allison shift pad will not illuminate (no start/no shift), etc.  Easiest diagnostic is if the dash HVAC fan does not operate, you need to check the ignition solenoid/ignition switch and wiring between them.

Not aware of any NAPA solenoid similar to the BlueSea electronic switch.  If you look at NAPA, verify it is a constant duty solenoid and at least the amp rating of the one it is replacing (here bigger is better).  Compare specs as well. Lower quality solenoids and many of the "replaces" solenoids generate more heat/resistance.

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #49 –
Quote from: wolfe10 –
The IGNITION SOLENOID supplies all circuits that energize with the ignition is turned on.
Not aware of any NAPA solenoid similar to the BlueSea electronic switch.
I believe the 2001 U320 is going to have a different setup from the older coaches with the single ignition solenoid.  On newer coaches not as simple to substitute the (excellent) Blue Sea unit, but it can be done.

On Mike & Molly's coach there should be two ignition solenoids, located behind the beauty panel in front of passenger, at the bottom center on circuit breaker/wiring board. They are black square looking and will have Bosch markings.  Much bigger than a standard relay.  Each solenoid controls 1/2 the circuits on the board.  See photos and more info in link below:

Ignition solenoid on a u320

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #50 –
Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie –
I believe the 2001 U320 is going to have a different setup from the older coaches with the single ignition solenoid.  On newer coaches it is not as simple to substitute the (excellent) Blue Sea unit.

On Mike & Molly's coach there should be two ignition solenoids, located behind the beauty panel in front of passenger, at the bottom center on circuit breaker/wiring board. They are black square looking and will have Bosch markings.  Much bigger than a standard relay.  Each solenoid controls 1/2 the circuits on the board.  See photos in link below:

Ignition solenoid on a u320



Chuck,

You are correct.  The newer coaches with higher "ignition hot" circuits amp loads use two ignition solenoids. 

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #51 –
We finally got it done and all seems to be working as it should. Jimmy and I will try to pull together a list of items we ordered and used as we would have found that extremely useful. We left room for Orion expansion if needed later on.
Managed to break the cord for the block heater... so there's another project!

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #52 –
Quote from: Vossx2 –
Managed to break the cord for the block heater... so there's another project!
If you are planning on replacing the engine coolant anytime soon, that's the perfect time to replace the block heater.  Otherwise, hard to do it without making a mess.

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #53 –
VOSSX2
Maybe your coach needs some blinker fluid? >:D  :))
 

Re: Alternator, Isolator or both?

Reply #54 –
Quote from: Vossx2 –
We finally got it done and all seems to be working as it should. Jimmy and I will try to pull together a list of items we ordered and used as we would have found that extremely useful. We left room for Orion expansion if needed later on.
Managed to break the cord for the block heater... so there's another project!
All the block heaters I've seen have removable cords. Check the examples on this page for how they may attach. Zerostart Direct Replacement Car & Truck Engine Blocks for sale | eBay

Pierce