Tire question. Should I be worried

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Tire question. Should I be worried

July 18, 2010, 07:32:41 pm

We are in the Gallatin National Forest in Montana (truly spectacular scenery) waiting for Coach Net to show up on Monday. We called them Friday around 4:00 p.m. We have had several conversations, the most recent of which leads us to believe that they will start looking for someone to fix our flat tire on Monday.

My question is not about Coach-Net.

The flat is the inside tire on passenger side rear. Will there be any negative effects from having only one tire carrying more than its share of the load. The "bad" tire has negligible pressure in it. I could only get a reading of 3 psi. The tire has been totally flat since for maybe 18 hours.

As for Coach-Net. We are in the wilderness 40 miles from Bozeman and we called them late on a Friday. It is not a critical situation. We are, after all, retired.

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #1 – July 18, 2010, 07:36:49 pm

Do not drive without air in that tire, you have doubled the weight on the good tire, far overloading its capacity. As you move and heat up that tire, it very well could fail and then you would be on side of road needing a one or perhaps two new tires. You need a service call to fix the flat before you drive other than a VERY short distance (mile?) at a VERY slow speed

Tim

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #2 – July 18, 2010, 07:51:33 pm

Tim is correct.

If all you did is sit (static) with one tire holding up the full weight designed for two tires, no problem. If you drove on it that way, REPLACE BOTH OF THEM.

And if you are sitting and it will be more than a few hours, be sure to inflate the remaining good tire to full PSI (so it can better handle more weight).

Brett Wolfe

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #3 – July 18, 2010, 08:34:57 pm

How did you find out that the tire was flat?
Had you checked the tire earlier and found it full of air and later checked and it was flat?
How are you checking your tire condition? Tire mallet, air guage, sensors, other?
Did you hear it blow out?
Does it have a side wall injury or is there a nail in the tread?
You mentioned that you were only able to get 3 pounds of air into the tire.
What kind of air source were you using? Coach air, portable pump, garage high pressure, etc.?
Have you increased the pressure in the remaining good tire to maximum rated pressure to carry the additional load?
Need more details.
Regards,
JON TWORK KB8RSA

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #4 – July 18, 2010, 08:37:17 pm

Brett is correct that Tim is correct. But that brings up a question. How many of you carry a spare? Mine came with one, along with a Jack and wrenches, but with new tires I would think I probably won't.

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #5 – July 18, 2010, 08:47:45 pm

Haven't carried a spare in ten years and don't miss it.

I suppose if I were headed to Alaska, I would carry two tires and no wheel.

To my knowledge, no flats on the coach in 225K miles

Regards,
JON TWORK KB8RSA

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #6 – July 18, 2010, 08:59:30 pm

Tim: Called Coach-Net at the time the Pressure Pro went off
Brett: As soon as I read your post I went and raised the pressure in the outer tire.

John:

The tire does not look flat. I am just using that term to describe a tire that is not drivable. I have no idea as to the source of the leak. It is not the valve stem. (7/19 update It WAS the valve stem. It was not adequately tightened when originally installed.)

We were driving yesterday afternoon when our Pressure Pro monitor told us of the low tire. We pulled off and I attempted to put more air into the tire, but the valve extension was not allowing air to pass. We drove about 25 more miles at 35 MPH and stopped once or twice to keep from building up. It was probably in the high 70s to low 80s. Several hours later when I found out that we would not see Coach-Net until Monday I spent more time trying to fix the problem and got the rear tire up to 98.5 (high quality made-in-America digital gauge -- so I know the reading is accurate).

I wrote down the PSI and checked it a couple of hours later. The pressure had declined somewhat. Don't remember the number.

I used a combination of the on-board air hose and a PowerTank to refill the tire.

The tires are Toyo M154 load range H. All are same age and were installed in April.

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #7 – July 18, 2010, 09:03:13 pm

My guess is that flat tire will be fine,service guy will demount to fix, and can inspect sidewalls for damage at that time. If you "thump" tire is it softer than mate? Rest easy and stop worrying so much. Deal with it when it is off rim and you have a diagnosis

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #8 – July 18, 2010, 09:59:56 pm

We recently had a tire start losing air as was noted by our Doran RV 360 TPMS. Surprisingly it turned out to be a somewhat loose valve core. Not sure how that could have happened but it has been fine for months now.

Jim

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #9 – July 18, 2010, 10:29:59 pm

An application of a wee bit of single malt is in order. Neat.

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #10 – July 18, 2010, 10:36:33 pm

I had "flat" inside rear, took the wheel off and took it to a tire store to have it repaired. The guy asked if it had a valve extension on it,,,Yes Sir it did and i handed it to him, he threw it in the trash and said that will be ten dollars. For what? He said the tire has 90PSI , the exrension is junk.......They often fail. so have you thumped the tire?

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #11 – July 18, 2010, 11:19:07 pm

Some years ago, my SOB with eight year old tires lost the right outside rear tire (it exploded) after a very rough/potholed stretch of pavement. I immediately pulled to the side of the highway, then drove a mile or so to an offramp and a safe place to stop. I had the tire replaced and drove another 500 miles before getting home and replacing all remaining tires. I don't feel a little driving at slow speed missing one of the rear duals is necessarily going to damage the remaining tire. Even the eight year old tire was good for the rest of the trip.

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #12 – July 18, 2010, 11:40:01 pm

Gary,

I'm of the same opinion. I do not have valve extensions or a TPMS (need to qualify that I am a seasonal Foretravel user). I rely on taking the tire pressures readings before I shub-off (using a good old tire pressure gauge), and try to be very careful to ride the tires (coach) over as smooth a pavement as I can negotiate going down the pike.

Knock on wood...I have not had any tire failure related incidents. And, it is my sincere hope none of you encounter a tire failure either. To those of you who do use TPMS devices, remember that it too is a monitoring system, and it too can also fail to perform. In other words, from time to time, take a manual reading of your tire pressures for absolute peace of mind as TPMS are intended to alert the driver that there has been an extreme drop in pressure either in your toad or coach, and not to replace taking readings from time to time.

Please do not rely on the TPMS 100% of the time.

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #13 – July 18, 2010, 11:58:40 pm

Tom,

Agree, especially in cooler weather, one could go a mile or so at slow speed as you did. Plus you replaced all your tires at the end of the trip.

In three years in the large truck and off road tire business, the number one cause of a truck on the side of the pavement was running a dual with one tire deflated. Take a look at your rear axle weight and divide by two.

That is the load you are asking one tire to carry. It will be severely overloaded, which will cause a dramatic rise in temp in short order at any speed, especially above 30 MPH. Worse of course on a 80 or 90 degree day.

Many times we "get away" with pushing our luck, but that doesn't make it wise to go there (Spoken as a father of three sons who have almost all reached "adulthood" :-)).

As you mentioned, a mile or so at slow speed - probably not an issue. 40 miles to get to a service center, different story. I think George's tires are reasonably new, and I doubt he would want to injure the good one that is holding air if it is not hurt now, plus the flat one may be only that, flat, and could be easily and cheaply fixed if no sidewall damage. Why risk turning a simple flat repair into something quite a bit more costly if neither tire needs replaced as of this moment?

Tires are so damn expensive, fiberglass even more so.

Tim

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #14 – July 19, 2010, 12:01:40 am

Great point - I assumed George had "thumped" the tire!

I have a slow leak on one of my duals right now, I am pretty convinced it is the "extension". Have to fill about every three weeks. Gonna put up with it by watching it till I get it in for service.

Tim

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #15 – July 19, 2010, 12:10:19 am

Tim,

Thing is that you know that a slow leak is there. Whether you know from a TPMS or taking manual readings, this is the way to do it...maintenance.

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #16 – July 19, 2010, 12:26:56 am

Yeah, 6 years, 18 different tires, 3 different foretravels, pressures were always perfect, never really can remember adding any air in any of those tires. Was getting kind of lazy, but before I brought it back from FL this spring, went ahead and checked even though I knew they would be fine (like always, right?) Passenger rear inside dual was at 40 lbs. Pumped it up and was fine all way home. Goes down about 5 lbs per week. I really suspect the extension, but working with those things in my younger years, I will be leaving the diagnosis and repair to the pros.

Tim

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #17 – July 19, 2010, 01:39:01 am

George is an older guy who is new to big rigs and big tires and a whole host of other aspects to living in a Foretravel. As an old guy, surprisingly, I have taken to technology like a duck to water. I do not thump, but I understand the principle. A TPMS is a good investment for me in my humble opinion. However, I am now going to follow Peter's advice and do an independent check with my digital gauge from time to time -- just to see if the Pressure Pro is performing properly. Even technology can let us down from time to time.

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #18 – July 19, 2010, 07:00:30 am

I would be very careful of the tires you drove on. Even at slow speeds you have added weight on the one good one. If it is not in the tire via a nail or screw you have to suspect the valve and extension and core. The fact you could not add air tells me it is the core. I know I am in the minority here but the pressure pros on the end of the stem are just too big and have too much mass moving. The keep the core open to be able to keep tabs on the pressure. I have well over 200k and will be over 300k if I get everywhere I want too this year. That number is only on FTs as I have the Born Free too. Check your tires when you stop with an IR gun gauge them in the mornings before starting and you will be fine. I would never drive on a low dual any distance other than getting off the highway at the first safe place. I carry a spare with me too. In the big national parks they sell the service rights to concessionaires and do not let in road service. I found that out in 2002 at Yellowstone

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #19 – July 19, 2010, 11:10:03 am

Get rid of those extentions!! Get some real valve stems. The extentions are nothing but trouble.

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #20 – July 19, 2010, 11:37:13 am

I have learned a great deal here and I continue to do so. Motorhomes, diesel engines, tires and more are subjects on which not everyone agrees and sometimes it is difficult to know which answer is the best one. Pat C just provided me with new information this morning. In all of the reading I have done I never saw anything about longer valve stems. Makes a LOT of sense.

I am also learning that it is risky to believe everything you read. We spoke with the camp host here in this small U.S. National Forest in Montana. I told him we had a tire issue and that we would be expecting a service truck. He never blinked. Never said he could not allow that. In fact when we told him that if there is a delay we might have to stay here an extra day or so. His comment: "Don't worry about it."

For the record, we drove 11 miles on an under inflated tire. I thought it was more, but my wife is a retired accountant and she has a steel trap mind when it comes to anything involving numbers. The tire did not lose all air pressure until long after we arrived.

I'll fill you all in after we get the repair done. And next time we are somewhere a big truck tire dealer is located who has long one -piece valves and a torque wrench, I will get those two short stems replaced with longer ones that reach from the inside to the outside.

I'll look into IR guns. Who has them? What is the price range? Any suggestions on brand?

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #21 – July 19, 2010, 11:40:30 am

George, a national forest is different than a national park. You will not have an issue in the forest. They do not sell the concession rights there.

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #22 – July 19, 2010, 12:23:44 pm

For duals, how do you know if the tire is actually low in pressure (and what can you do before you call road service)?

There should be a significant "bulge" in the sidewall of the good tire, if the bad dual tire is really low in pressure.

The bad tire should sound significantly "dull" (i.e. - have a less high pitched ring to it) when you "thump" test it. One should be able to easily detect a 10 to 20 psig "low" difference between a good pressure and bad pressure tire.

If you've been underway, when the low pressure is noticed, the low pressure side tires and wheels should both be significantly warmer to the touch (or any IR or contact instrument).

Remove any TPMS instrumentation and do the "bubble" test on BOTH ends of the valve stem. If yes, you found it! If no "bubbling", the valve stem can be either good or plugged.

Remove the valve stem core. Does the tire express air freely? If not, is there an "add-on" valve stem extension? If your inner dual has anything other than a single piece, solid extension stem, mounted IN the inner wheel, it is highly suspect.

With the valve stem core out of the stem, will the tire air up freely? If yes, just replace the valve core (it's always best to replace any used core with new one from your on-board spares). Record "As-Left" pressure.

Is there any escaping air noise?

After an hour, is pressure equal to or higher than your recorded pressure (sun/ambient may cause an increase).

If still losing air, raise and block the coach, wet down the entire suspect tire with soapy water and carefully/slowly...... look/listen for leaks. It can help to soak an old bath towel with the soapy water and slowly slide it over the tire's top half surface and bottom half rim, listening for escaping air or bubbling. Then, mark tire and have DW help you move the coach ½ tire rotation fwd or back. Repeat soapy water "Slide" for other half of tire.

If you find a puncture, MARK SIDEWALL, so that road service can find it again, when they get there. They should be able and willing to temporarily plug it, so that you can get to a tire dealership of your own choosing, under your own power. If you value the appearance of your Alcoa's, get to a good tire shop, if at all possible, rather than allowing field service on a tire.

If none of this works, my experience hasn't helped.
This is where I would give up and call road service.
Good Luck,
Let us know how this all turns out,
Neal

PS. I'm like Peter.
I prefer the KISS principle.
Rather than relying on an IR gun and the confusion it could generate, I lay a hand on every tire and every outside wheel rim, coach and toad, during every travel break. If I detect an anomaly, then I break out the IR gun and investigate further.
I find that more direct method less likely to be misinterpreted and a potential problem less likely to be missed.

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #23 – July 19, 2010, 12:32:37 pm

I have an IR temperature sensor that I picked up from Radio Shack and have used it for tires and a lot of other things too. Very handy and not that expensive. If George used his Power Tank to inflate the low tire and it did not work, it may have been the Power Tank chuck. Mine will freeze up and not allow gas to pass into the tire. On two occasions I have had to take the chuck valve apart and lubricate its simple valve mechanism. Then it works fine.... for awhile.

Interesting comments on the valve extensions. Mine are all the Alcoa extensions that come with the Alcoa wheels and I have not had any problems with them (knock on wood or aluminum or whatever). The Pressure Pro does not seem to cause a problem because the Alcoa extension goes through a rubber fitting that fills the hole through which the tire value passes. So it can't move very much.

We have used Pressure Pro for four years with minimal problems. We started using them on our Airstream. There you could have a blow out and not know it until the wheel well was torn up. On the coach it is more for monitoring for a low tire. I had a slow leak in one of my front FT tires (about a pound per 24 hours) and picked it up that way. It turned out to be the O-ring associated with the valve stem. Of course checking the tires daily would have worked too, but it is hard to remember to do that daily.... at least for me. Do what works.

Given the comments here, I'll start using my IR temperature gauge too. Checking them once a day at lunch would probably work, even for me.

George (the other one)

Re: Tire question. Should I be worried

Reply #24 – July 19, 2010, 12:44:05 pm

Using a gauge for frequent checking of air pressure is probably NOT a good idea. There is a lot of dirt and debris inside the tire and when you use the gauge you let some of the air out and any dirt that has accumulated in the internal valve stem area tries to exit. When this happens some particles may stick around the dill valve/valve core seal area causing a slow leak.

It is usually best when using an air gauge to blow some air in to clear the passageway prior to using the gauge. I use the same procedure when installing my Pressure Pro's for the same reason. I also vacuume out all tires before installation. I use Equal in all my tires and all of the dill valves have filters on them to prevent contamination. I have noticed that if I do not clear the filters with air that I sometimes can not get a good gauge reading.

When on the road I use an Infra-red thermometer on the tires to discern any differences between tires and also to determine if any wheel bearings on my trailer are running hotter than normal. If I detect some change in the tires, I use my thumper to determine pressures. When you get good at it, you can, when checking them cold, know the ambient temperature without looking at a thermometer. You also learn about the sunshine effect on tire pressures. The less you mess with a closed system, the less problems you will have. FWIW,

Regards,
JON TWORK KB8RSA

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