House Batteries

Topic: House Batteries (Read 1979 times) previous topic - next topic

House Batteries

September 02, 2010, 12:04:43 pm

Calling All Battery Gurus.

Our 2007 42' Nimbus has 3 house batteries accessed by removing all the contents of the 2/3 basement bay including a joey tray and then removing an access panel on the side... ugggh. Would appear that one or more has gone bad as they are not holding a charge and our doing some other squirrelly things. Confirmed with support in Nac that next step to replace them. The coach is now in New Hampshire and despite massive google time and calls to automotive, battery and camping world I'm not doing to good at finding replacements.

The three original units on the coach are:

Sonnenschien GF 12 160V
Motive Power Maintain Free
Gel Technology

12 Volts 160ah (C5) and 196ah (C20)

Questions.

1) For simplicity of self install sake I'd love to buy and pay for shipping on the exact replacement models but not finding them... any ideas?

2) If I need an or equal am I looking for 160ah or 196ah or do I care more about the limited physical space I have to install these?

3) If I need an or equal should I abandon ship and switch to AGM or

--- Forgetting costs what is the best performing solution?

Can't believe I'v got 8 hours in this and haven't figure a best solution... appreciate your help.

Chris & Susan

Re: House Batteries

Reply #1 – September 02, 2010, 12:18:46 pm

We switched over to AGM's a long time ago:

http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/

Brett Wolfe

Re: House Batteries

Reply #2 – September 02, 2010, 12:26:32 pm

Sonnenschien appears to be a European brand owned by Exide company. Might want to contact Exide for a US match.

Re: House Batteries

Reply #3 – September 02, 2010, 12:35:02 pm

Quote

If I need an or equal should I abandon ship and switch to AGM

Looks like these are UK Batteries
Sonnenschein 12V 196Ah Gel Battery

Part Number:      GF 12 160 V
Voltage:      12V
Capacity (c20):    196Ah
Dimensions (mm):    513 long x 276 wide x 242 high
Weight:      63.0 kgs

I agree with Brett about switching to AGM's
I will be doing that when I can figure out how to redo the holding brackets which will need to be enlarged.
The AGM's handle the high temperatures better in that enclosed compartment.
I found charging my batteries when that compartment gets in the 90-100 range takes quite a bit longer with the gels.
Which accounts for my high generator hours.
It took me a long time to finally figure out it was the high temperature that was my problem.

Re: House Batteries

Reply #4 – September 02, 2010, 02:01:43 pm

I have found these people to be great to work with, and you can't beat free shipping to your door:

http://www.powerstridebattery.com/

Cheers

Ted

Re: House Batteries

Reply #5 – September 02, 2010, 02:21:53 pm

Why in the world would Foretravel bury the batteries in the back of a compartment. I'm appreciating my very simple 93, U225 more and more. Of course I wouldn't mind having an inverter.

Aren't the AGM's all 12v. Are they better than the 6v golf cart batteries? I guess since the house batteries are so hard to get to you must have maintenance free. Do the 6v batteries come that way?

Re: House Batteries

Reply #6 – September 02, 2010, 02:27:09 pm

Kent,

Yes, quality AGM's are better than wet cell-- even wet cell golf cart batteries. And, as you would expect they are more expensive.

And they are made in 6 as well as 12 VDC (at least Lifelines are).

Brett Wolfe

Re: House Batteries

Reply #7 – September 02, 2010, 06:03:54 pm

Well I think the closest equal from Lifeline would be the GPL-4DA.
http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/rvflyer.php?id=5

yes?

I think the size works, it's actually smaller except length and then only by a bit. So just need to double check available space and venting... I see lifeline notes to never install in enclosed area and not only is that space small in size I don't think its vented... Figure it must be but I need to double check size anyway.

Will also need to make sure I know how to re-prog the Xantrex

Anything else I'm missing?

Again thanks for all the help

Re: House Batteries

Reply #8 – September 02, 2010, 06:36:53 pm

Quote

I see lifeline notes to never install in enclosed area and not only is that space small in size I don't think its vented

It is probably like mine. There are two vent holes under the battery rack with about one inch clearance.
There is a PVC pipe at the top of the compartment that goes out to the center of coach with the wire trough and just ends there.
When I first found it I thought something was not connected.
I tried attaching an exhaust fan on the end of it to draw out some of the heat with no real difference in temp.
I think the battery shelf is to close to the vent holes on the bottom to be able to draw much air thru.
I was trying to figure a way to to run an air conditioning vent down there.

Now that is getting desperate.

Re: House Batteries

Reply #9 – September 02, 2010, 06:43:48 pm

No battery should be installed in a totally enclosed (sealed) area.

Of all battery types, AGM's would do best in a sealed area. They do not outgas except under extreme overcharging. And they are even legal to ship by air in the U.S.

Brett Wolfe

Re: House Batteries

Reply #10 – September 03, 2010, 07:01:43 am

When I replaced mine three years ago now, I talked to a number of sources and the thing I found was AGM had more power and was great but had a lower number of recharge cycles life vs the gel cells. I know I use my batteries a lot so I went with gel that time and will have to decide again in five years or so. I will figure out how I use the coach then and decide that way. I am not super worried about the length or duration of use on the batteries. I will run the genset if I get to low. I had slur on my last coach and that helped a lot too. So, battery power of the AGM vs the gel is not the only thing to consider when deciding. If I had an all electric coach, I would use AGM batteries without question though.

Re: House Batteries

Reply #11 – September 03, 2010, 09:13:33 am

First, are you sure that the batteries are going. If it were that hard to get to them, maybe regular maintenance wasn't done. You migh jusy have bad connections, corroded over time.
Why don't you just clean them up a bit, put the leads back on and check if they work again?

I believe many, many good batteries are in the trash bin just because the terminals and connections were loose or corroded. When you change batteries the connections are cleaner and then it works, leaving you thinking it was the batteries and not housekeeping.

I had AGM's on our boat for 8 years with heavy use in the South Pacific, charged by solar, wind, water, gen-set, engine, and inverter. Except for the iron genny, most charging was done by wind and solar, and the AGM's kept on ticking.

Many times the banks would get down to 50% for many cloudy windless days at a time, yet came back like new.

I'm just waiting for the day when H2O fuel cells come on-line cheaper to go that way

Re: House Batteries

Reply #12 – September 03, 2010, 10:35:54 am

As for house battery location, this conversation makes me appreciate our 40 ft. 1996 U320 ("The Burrow"). Our two, original house batteries are in a slide out tray in the first bay just behind the left front wheel. An aftermarket third house battery is installed in the small bay just ahead of the left rear wheels; but, very reachable (is that a word?).

Re: House Batteries

Reply #13 – September 03, 2010, 11:13:56 am

We have three Lifeline 8D's, not two, in that same location. Two down, third above. 1999 U320. So did our 1997 U295.

best, paul

"Thriving not surviving" <(o¿o)> Paul Schaye (at 2008 NYC Marathon)

Re: House Batteries

Reply #14 – September 03, 2010, 09:32:23 pm

Chris,

Why do you want to self-install? I shopped for the best price for my gels, then drove there. Installation was free.

Re: House Batteries

Reply #15 – September 03, 2010, 10:38:27 pm

Well guess I'll check with FT to make sure a Lifeline GPL-4DA is an equivalent to my old Sonnenschein 12V 196Ah Gel Battery, not finding any other easier alternatives. Looks like a couple places I can buy them locally.

Barry - guessing the ventilation on my coach must exist. When I went to investigate the batteries I just didn't pay venting much attention I was just looking to get the model number so I could find replacements

Xantrex - I read the inverter manual and it looks like all I need to do is set the battery type and the size in AH. Is the AH size the rating of one battery which on the GPL-4DA reads as 210 or is it the sum of the bank? In this case 630.

Mike - The connections all look nice. Though I didn't fiddle with them any. Do think the batteries are gone given 4 years old and a few very deep discharges due to power failures. ESP shows 11 amp draw even with power connection switch... think I've got at least one of those batteries acting crazy

Amos - I would much rather pull into a service shop to get this done but not many up here. Camping World passed as did Campers Inn. Would have figured them to cross ref my batteries and come up with a solution

I seem to be making this mucho complicated. But I think my best shot is ordering the Lifelines locally or online and try installing myself with out creating a small explosion

thanks again

Re: House Batteries

Reply #16 – September 04, 2010, 06:37:49 am

Chris,

Set the Xantrex for the TOTAL amp hours of your battery bank.

Re: House Batteries

Reply #17 – September 04, 2010, 09:51:45 am

Not to complicate the situation too much, but for my self installation I went a slightly different way. When my three big 160 pound gel cell batteries needed replacing, I put in six two volt Lifeline AGM's at 65 pounds each---much more manageable. Two volt cells are the norm in large motor vessels just because of the size issue.

I used six Lifeline GPL-4CT's in series. The total physical size was slightly smaller than the three 8D twelve volt batteries I replaced, so they fit the space. The total amp hour rating was about the same and the total weight was about the same. (Battery banks wired in parallel have the voltage of an individual cell, but the amp hours is the total of all the batteries. Batteries wired in series have the amp hour rating of an individual cell but the voltage is the sum of all the batteries in the bank.)

I ordered my batteries directly from Lifeline in Azusa, California and they shipped right to me via FedEx freight.

The installation could not have been easier, and a year later I am still very pleased with the set-up. Looking back, the only thing I might have done differently is go with the next size larger two volt, the GPL-6CT. With very little effort I could have fit them in the available space and they would have given me 40% more amp hour capacity.

Re: House Batteries

Reply #18 – September 04, 2010, 10:39:56 am

Quote

I put in six two volt Lifeline AGM's at 65 pounds each---much more manageable. Two volt cells are the norm in large motor vessels just because of the size issue.

You meant 2 - 6vdc not 6 - 2vdc. Is that correct?

Lifeline GPL-4CT
Nominal Voltage_________________________6 volts
Amp hour capacity at 20 hour rate__________ 220 amp hour
Reserve Capacity at 25 amp discharge rate____492 minutes
Reserve Capacity at 15 amp discharge rate____856 minutes
Reserve Capacity at 8 amp discharge rate ____1692 minutes
Dimensions (inches)______________________Length=10.28*, Width= 7.06, Height= 9.92*
Dimensions (mm)________________________Length=261, Width=179, Height=251
Weight ________________________________ 66 pounds / 30 kilograms

Lifeline GPL-6CT
Nominal Voltage_________________________6 volts
Amp hour capacity at 20 hour rate__________ 300 amp hour
Reserve Capacity at 25 amp discharge rate____690 minutes
Reserve Capacity at 15 amp discharge rate____1200 minutes
Reserve Capacity at 8 amp discharge rate ____2205 minutes
Dimensions (inches)______________________Length=10.28*, Width= 7.06, Height= 12.94*
Dimensions (mm)________________________Length=261, Width=179, Height=328
Weight ________________________________ 90 pounds / 40.8 kilograms

Re: House Batteries

Reply #19 – September 04, 2010, 12:38:01 pm

Barry, I did mean six individual two volt batteries. The Lifeline GPL-4CT-2V and the GPL-6CT-2V are actually "single cell" batteries. The 4CT is rated as 660 amp hr and the 6CT is rated at 900 amp hr.

I had the opportunity to be in the engine rooms of a few large motor yachts that used large single cell batteries in their battery banks. When it came time for new batteries in our Foretravel I wondered why this would not work and why I had never seen this system utilized in motor coaches. I talked to FOT and MOT but they were not familiar with single cells and were not anxious to explore that route, so I did it myself. It has worked out great.

Re: House Batteries

Reply #20 – September 04, 2010, 12:54:28 pm

Quote

The Lifeline GPL-4CT-2V and the GPL-6CT-2V are actually "single cell" batteries.

I see now.
You left the -2v off the original post.
Without that the GPL-4CT was a 6vdc.
I need to replace mine but the 12vdc are slightly larger & I would have to redo my rack.
This might be a solution to explore.
Thanks

Re: House Batteries

Reply #21 – September 04, 2010, 11:16:08 pm

Hi Paul,

Yes mine the same two down third above.

Re: House Batteries

Reply #22 – September 16, 2010, 09:06:16 am

Went to put my new Lifeline GPL4DA batteries in yesterday.

Found the old batteries fully charged and holding a charge. Returned the Lifelines despite a restock fee. Think I might get another year before I need to change.

Not sure what went wrong but think it had to do with power at the storage place and maybe some issues with my 30 Amp dog bone cable.

At least I'll know exactly what to do when the time comes to change them. Also confirmed the GPL4DA's fit in the existing battery tray and of course the battery compartment is nicely vented

A little concerned that I see the fault flash red on the ESP for a 1/2 second when the transfer switch goes to shore power... I wonder if that switch or something else got weakened or damaged with all my messing around. So hard to sort things out when the coach is storage over an hour away... hopefully we don't find major issues once we're back on the road

Re: House Batteries

Reply #23 – September 16, 2010, 09:45:09 am

Chris,
you've seen my comments in other threads before, but I repeat, do the easy, cheap stuff first.

I know that it is after the horse got out now, but I always grab the multimeter and go poking around and checking the wiring diagrams to get my head around the problem. I worked too hard just to throw expensive parts at a problem, or pay someone to learn on my system.

You would be surprised, or maybe not, how many problems were just not being plugged in, or turned on, or minor problems like loose or corroded, or with the abuse that cables take, plugs that have poor contact.

A little poking around saves the cash for beer or other libation!

Re: House Batteries

Reply #24 – September 17, 2010, 10:31:15 pm

My personal experience with six volt batteries was not pleasant. One of them died and I suddenly had only 6 volts where I needed 12. If you have three 12 Volt batteries in parallel and one goes bad you still have twelve volts. If one of the two volt batteries goes bad you now have ten volts. If for some reason one of the connections becomes poor then there is a chance of improper charging and damage to the cell. While it is true that you have no more cells than a single 12 volt battery, the connections to the cells are internal in the 12 volt and not likely to go bad. I am assuming that on a ship those batteries were very accessible and it was easy to maintain the connections. I would stick with 12 volt batteries even if it meant I had to have someone else install them because I like redundancy.

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