Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Topic: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger (Read 1685 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

September 15, 2010, 06:41:10 pm

I may be reading the schematics wrong, but it looks like on my PTS MH-10 that the generator does NOT charge the battery. Seems strange in the wiring diagram, but to charge the house batteries, I need to use the inverter/charger.

Haven't checked mine yet to see if it is true, and it doesn't make sense not to charge direct from the gen set. But, it looks like 12VDC is used to start and control, but not charge.

Engine Run - Gen off - boost off - engine & house batteries should both be charging 12.7+VDC - normal - if not - bad isolator

Engine Run - Gen off - boost on - engine & house batteries should both be charging 12.7+VDC - normal - if not - bad boost solenoid

Engine Off - Gen Run - boost off - inv/chrgr off - engine & house batteries should both be static 12-12 .7VDC (same...maybe) - normal

Engine Off - Gen Run - boost on - inv/chrgr off - engine & house batteries should both be static 12-12 .7VDC(same) - normal

Engine Off - Gen Run - boost off - inv/chrgr on - engine batteries static - house batteries should be charging 12 .7+VDC - normal

Engine Off - Gen Run - boost on - inv/chrgr on - engine batteries & house batteries should be charging 12 .7+VDC - normal

Shore Power On - Eng Off - Gen Off - Inv/Chrgr Off - Boost Off - engine & house batteries should both be static 12-12 .7VDC(same) - normal

Shore Power On - Eng Off - Gen Off - Inv/Chrgr On - Boost Off - engine batteries static & house batteries should both be charging - 12 .7+VDC - normal

- if not - bad inv/chrgr?

Shore Power On - Eng Off - Gen Off - Inv/Chrgr On - Boost On - engine batteries & house batteries should both be charging - 12 .7+VDC - normal

- if not - bad Boost solenoid.

static means not charging.

If you are seeing charging on the house batteries, is your inv/chrgr set to "charge"?

If the electricians out there would let me know if what I thought above makes sense?

Also, if all wires and all terminals are not clean and tight, all of the above guesses are void!

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #1 – September 15, 2010, 07:23:48 pm

Simple test to see if CHASSIS Batteries are starting the genny, unhook the batteries and try to start the genny... No start you have answered the question. On all the FT's I have seen the chassis batteries stand alone and only charge when the alternator is working OR the boost switch is in the on position.
There are always exceptions.. YMMV

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #2 – September 15, 2010, 08:10:58 pm

Boy, am I confused!

I've always thought that the Heart Interface inverter/charger is always on "charger" even when the remote panel power switch is in the "off" position (remote "on" means inverter is "inverting"). Then, when the generator or shore power is available the house batteries are always receiving a charge.

Can someone set me straight? $:-\$

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #3 – September 15, 2010, 08:30:13 pm

Quote

On 9/15/2010 6:41 PM, Mike Baldacchino wrote:
I may be reading the schematics wrong, but it looks like on my PTS MH-10 that the generator does NOT charge the battery. Seems strange in the wiring diagram, but to charge the house batteries, I need to use the inverter/charger.

Haven't checked mine yet to see if it is true, and it doesn't make sense not to charge direct from the gen set. But, it looks like 12VDC is used to start and control, but not charge.

Engine Run - Gen off - boost off - engine & house batteries should both be charging 12.7+VDC - normal - if not - bad isolator

Engine Run - Gen off - boost on - engine & house batteries should both be charging 12.7+VDC - normal - if not - bad boost solenoid

Engine Off - Gen Run - boost off - inv/chrgr off - engine & house batteries should both be static 12-12 .7VDC (same...maybe) - normal

Engine Off - Gen Run - boost on - inv/chrgr off - engine & house batteries should both be static 12-12 .7VDC(same) - normal

Engine Off - Gen Run - boost off - inv/chrgr on - engine batteries static - house batteries should be charging 12 .7+VDC - normal

Engine Off - Gen Run - boost on - inv/chrgr on - engine batteries & house batteries should be charging 12 .7+VDC - normal

Shore Power On - Eng Off - Gen Off - Inv/Chrgr Off - Boost Off - engine & house batteries should both be static 12-12 .7VDC(same) - normal

Shore Power On - Eng Off - Gen Off - Inv/Chrgr On - Boost Off - engine batteries static & house batteries should both be charging - 12 .7+VDC - normal - if not - bad inv/chrgr?

Shore Power On - Eng Off - Gen Off - Inv/Chrgr On - Boost On - engine batteries & house batteries should both be charging - 12 .7+VDC - normal - if not - bad Boost solenoid.

static means not charging.

If you are seeing charging on the house batteries, is your inv/chrgr set to "charge"?

If the electricians out there would let me know if what I thought above makes sense?

Also, if all wires and all terminals are not clean and tight, all of the above guesses are void!

Michael Baldacchino
'97 40' U320
PURPLE HAZE
25' Car Hauler 2006 Toyota Highlander 2003 Melges MC Scow

"Purple Haze"
"If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much room!"

"Life is what happens when you are doing other things!"

Maybe I'm not certain what you are saying... The power tech generator doesn't charge anything. It powers the 120V bus instead of shore power. Either one should be able to power the inverter and charger. The charger section charges the house battery bank. Turning on the boost switch will place the chassis bank in parallel with the house bank - and bypasses the isolator in the process. In this fashion the charger section will charge both banks at the same time.

With a Heart Freedom 25 Inverter Charger the charger is 'on' at any time there is 120V applied to it. The inverter section is controlled by a switch.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #4 – September 15, 2010, 08:30:48 pm

Quote

On 9/15/2010 8:11 PM, Peter & Beth wrote:
Boy, am I confused!

I've always thought that the Heart Interface inverter/charger is always on "charger" even when the remote panel power switch is in the "off" position (remote "on" means inverter is "inverting"). Then, when the generator or shore power is available the house batteries are always receiving a charge.

Can someone set me straight? $:-\$

Peter & Beth Martin
Cincinnati, OH 1997 U270 WTBI 34' (Forrest)
Coach Build No. 5156 2004 Honda Element EX (Henry) petermartin@fuse.net

You are correct.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #5 – September 15, 2010, 10:40:51 pm

Quote

RE: With a Heart Freedom 25 Inverter Charger the charger is 'on' at any time there is 120V applied to it. The inverter section is controlled by a switch.

Quote

RE: I've always thought that the Heart Interface inverter/charger is always on "charger" even when the remote panel power switch is in the "off" position (remote "on" means inverter is "inverting"). Then, when the generator or shore power is available the house batteries are always receiving a charge.

Above two postings are incorrect. Heart Freedom 25 has DIP switches on the back of the standard remote display panel.
One of the DIP switches manages how the front on/off switch controls the charger.

In one DIP position, the front panel switch turns off the Inverter and charger. In this mode, even with AC power, if the front switch is off, battery charger remains off. This can be very useful if one is plugged into a limited 15 amp shore power outlet and they want to run an electric heater, microwave, etc. that are not plugged into an outlet supplied from inverter. It offers manual control of charger, if desired.

In the other position, the switch turns off inverter only and when AC power is supplied to the Heart, house battery bank is always charged, just like the above two postings suggested.

Other DIP switches control important things, for example reduction of battery charger current when Heart senses AC electric loads being turned on.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #6 – September 15, 2010, 10:50:41 pm

Barry and Cindy, which postings do you refer to when you say:

Quote

Above two postings are incorrect. Heart Freedom 25 has DIP switches on the back of the standard remote display panel.
One of the DIP switches manages how the front on/off switch controls the charger.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #7 – September 15, 2010, 11:06:01 pm

Quote

1) RE: With a Heart Freedom 25 Inverter Charger the charger is 'on' at any
time there is 120V applied to it. The inverter section is controlled by a switch.

Quote

2) RE: I've always thought that the Heart Interface inverter/charger is
always on "charger" even when the remote panel power switch is in the "off" position (remote "on" means inverter is "inverting"). Then, when the generator or shore power is available the house batteries are always receiving a charge.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #8 – September 16, 2010, 07:58:39 am

Barry,
My Inverter/ charger is set to charge by the remote. Sometime when we go into a CG with low voltage, charging the batteries comes second to other things. Sometimes the parks/CG can't even support 1 air conditioner, water heater or microwave. By using the remote, you can shut the charging down until the camp voltage rises.

It gives you another choice, especially with voltage challenged camp grounds.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #9 – September 16, 2010, 08:18:18 am

Quote from: Mike Baldacchino – September 16, 2010, 07:58:39 am

Barry,
My Inverter/ charger is set to charge by the remote. Sometime when we go into a CG with low voltage, charging the batteries comes second to other things. Sometimes the parks/CG can't even support 1 air conditioner, water heater or microwave. By using the remote, you can shut the charging down until the camp voltage rises.

It gives you another choice, especially with voltage challenged camp grounds.

This is great information. So, by changing the dip switch for the remote switch mode to "off" to cancel the "charger" feature, will the inverter be "on" whenever the remote switch is turned "on" as well as the "charger" feature?

Then, will the inverter being on 100% of the time whenever you "charge" reduce the life of the inverter?

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #10 – September 16, 2010, 09:31:49 am

Peter,

I don't know which remote controller you have. Mine is the link 2000. It has a switch for the inverter and for the charges. If the dips are set to the remote, you chose when the inverter or the charger comes on.

I leave my inverter on all the time in case shore power goes off. (I don't have auto-start gen set). If shore power goes away, the inverter kicks in. We are full timers so we are never away so long that it would deplete the house batteries if we lose shore power. I do, turn off the boost (which I leave on most of the time because we don't have a trickle charger) when we leave so we don't run down the start batteries.

If we have good shore power, the charger on the link remote is in the on position. Once the batteries are changed, the 3-stage charger will just keep them in float mode, not much of a work load at all.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #11 – September 16, 2010, 09:46:01 am

Mike,

Below is a photo of what I have. It is set up to charge whenever there is shore/genset power. We're occasional travelers/campers so I usually do not use the inverter except when stopped w/o genset for meals at rest stops and the like.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #12 – September 16, 2010, 10:02:57 am

Peter,

You have a different panel, like Barry and Cindy's I guess, with only one switch that controls both. When I posted the list, it was with using the link 2000 which has two front panel switches, one for inverter and one for charger. It depends on the coach, I guess, which remote you have.

Barry,

Which setting do you keep your dip switch in? Do you control both inverter and charger from front, or do you only control the inverter? This might help Peter.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #13 – September 16, 2010, 10:28:38 am

Quote

RE Peter: So, by changing the dip switch for the remote switch mode for "off" to cancel the "charger" feature, will the inverter be "on" whenever the remote switch is turned "on" as well as the "charger" feature? Then, will the inverter being on 100% of the time whenever you "charge" reduce the life of the inverter?

----------------
Inverter / chargers are one unit and can only invert OR charge. They cannot do both at the same time. Inverters only come on when shore/gen power is not available.

The DIP switch on our remote panel only controls how the front panel switch works with charger. It has nothing to do with changing how the front switch works with inverter.

DIP position 1) Front switch turns off inverter and charger. DIP position 2) Front switch turns off inverter only.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #14 – September 16, 2010, 11:01:40 am

Quote

The DIP switch on our remote panel only controls how the front panel switch works with charger. It has nothing to do with changing how the front switch works with inverter.

Barry, I'm getting confused with semantics. 1. Switch remote panel, and 2. Front panel switch. Are these two one & the same? Or, are you describing one as the switch on the inverter/charger itself (located in bay) as opposed to the remote panel which is located overhead inside the coach?

For example, I was told to never shut "off" the switch located at the inverter/charger. It must always stay in the "on" position, then control the inverter on/off at the remote panel inside the coach.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #15 – September 16, 2010, 11:29:26 am

Quote

RE Michael: Which setting do you keep your dip switch in? Do you control both inverter and charger from front, or do you only control the inverter?

This might help Peter.

First of all we replaced our Heart 25, which had the basic remote panel with led lights and one front switch, with a Prosine 2.0 (no DIP switches & separate charge/invert front switches).

I recommend that others move away from modified sine wave as soon as they can.

Those with Heart 2000 remote panel have separate front switches to manage charger & inverter. Don't know if they have DIP switches to force battery charging with shore power even if front panel charge switch is off. The 2000 remote also has nice digital voltage & amp displays, something the basic panel lacks.

When we had the Heart 25, we kept our remote panel fastened to the wall with just one screw to facilitate changing the rear DIP switches as needed. These rear DIP switches control power sharing as well as charger off settings.
Most of the time we kept the DIP switch in the position where the front switch does not control the charger, which may be the 'default' suggestion. When I change DIP switches I put a note on the front to remind me how the front switch affects charging.
Once understood how things work, it is really a personal choice.

Most of the time, I had power sharing DIP switches in off position. Power sharing only works with loads that are on the inverter circuit breaker panel. Power Sharing is designed to reduce battery charger current to keep from tripping the campground circuit breaker. I moved the microwave to the main panel a long time ago, so all the big electric loads like roof air, space heaters, microwave, hot water tank etc were not sensed by the inverter so they could not reduce battery charger current. We just manage our power consumption by manually turning things off before we turn other things on, when we are on limited shore power, which can be 50 amp with low voltage down to 15 amp campground outlets.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #16 – September 16, 2010, 11:48:43 am

Wow, what a great thread.
Sorry I have been incognito and will be again for the weekend.

Quote

Back in reply 11 Dave Head said "The power tech generator doesn't charge anything. It powers the 120V bus instead of shore power. "

The Powertech 10KW I have has three outputs, a red hot 120AC, a black hot 120AC, and a 12v 200watt battery charge from a separate dynamo. According to my wiring diagram, the 12v dynamo output is connected to the coach batteries, however I have never confirmed that the coach batteries are being charged with generator running and main breakers in 120AC panel off. I assumed it works and now will check it to be certain.

I have already replaced the automatic 120AC switches with manual ones, and am about to replace the Freedom inverter/converter with a pure sign 1800 watt inverter and a 55amp IOTA converter. I would be happy to document why next week, but am about to go to an FMCA rally in Victoria.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #17 – September 16, 2010, 12:41:54 pm

Power Tech gensets can be wired so that a dedicated battery starts the genset. This battery would not be part of the house or engine battery bank. It is a 3rd battery bank dedicated to the genset. Foretravel does not use a 3rd battery bank just for the genset, but some Country Coach motorhomes have this 3rd battery bank. A separate battery that is dedicated to starting and running the genset needs a battery charging source to replenish it and this is probably what the 12 charging circuit in the Power Tech is designed for.

Re: Chassis batteries not charging when engine and generator running

Reply #18 – September 16, 2010, 03:06:21 pm

You guys made me pull the book out!

In the freedom 25 owners manual, page 37, it says that whenever AC power is applied to the inverter/chrager, the battery is being charged regardless of the position of the on/off switch on the remote. This feature can be disabled by setting dip switch #4 to "ON" (which is on the back of the remote, not the inverter itself). When sw #4 is "on", the charger will respond to the "on/off" on the remote.

Page 13 has the dip switch settings.

It seems that if you have two switches, you can control the inv & chrgr separately.

If one switch, both are controlled. See page 8. It depends on the switch position on the front of the inv/charger. Another list:

Ext/Gen AC power supplied - (Inverter Power Sw. - "OFF") - (Dip #4 "OFF") = Inverter - no power (supplied by AC source & not controlled by Remote) - Charger powered - (Remote - no control)

Ext/Gen AC power supplied - (Inverter Power Sw. - "OFF") - (Dip #4 "ON") = Inverter - no power (supplied by AC source) - Charger powered - (Remote - charging controlled by "ON/OFF" sw)

No Ext/Gen AC power supplied - (Inverter Power Sw. - "ON") - (Dip#4 "ON") = Inverter - no power (supplied by AC source) - Charger not powered - (Remote - charging not controlled by "ON/OFF" sw)

No Ext/Gen AC power supplied - (Inverter Power Sw. - "ON") - (Dip #4 "OFF") = Inverter - power (supplied by house battery) - Charger not powered - (Remote - charging not controlled by "ON/OFF" sw)

No Ext/Gen AC power supplied - (Inverter Power Sw. - "OFF") - (Dip#4 "ON") = Inverter - power (supplied by house battery - controller by remote "ON-OFF) - Charger not powered

Basically, the power switch on the inverter turns on the ability to use the remote. On, it automatically charges when there is AC power, and inverts when there is no AC ext/aux/gen power.

Off, it allows the remote to control the inverter and with dip #4 on also control the charger.

Now for the big scoop!!

I just talked to Jeff at power tech and he say that the gen set will charge the gen set start battery (house batteries) through the gen starter but only at 14.5VDC and 4 amps.

So, yes, the gen will charge the batteries, but at 4 amps, it would take forever. It is just used to keep a dedicated start battery charged.

Re: Re: Powertech Generator - Inverter/Charger

Reply #19 – September 16, 2010, 04:34:33 pm

Quote

On 9/16/2010 11:48 AM, P. Wyatt Sabourin wrote:
Wow, what a great thread.
Sorry I have been incognito and will be again for the weekend.

Back in reply 11 Dave Head said "The power tech generator doesn't charge anything. It powers the 120V bus instead of shore power. " The Powertech 10KW I have has three outputs, a red hot 120AC, a black hot 120AC, and a 12v 200watt battery charge from a seperate dynamo. According to my wiring diagram, the 12v dynamo output is connected to the coach batteries, however I have never confirmed that the coach batteries are being charged with generator running and main breakers in 120AC panel off. I assumed it works and now will check it to be certain.

I have already replaced the automatic 120AC switches with manual ones, and am about to replace the Freedom inverter/converter with a pure sign 1800 watt inverter and a 55amp IOTA converter. I would be happy to document why next week, but am about to go to an FMCA rally in Victoria.

Wyatt
96 U320 40 98 Suzuki X90 towd
Victoria, BC, Canada

Just be advised you will have slower charging with the 55 amp converter. The 3 stage charger in the Freedom 25 will pump out 130 amps in bulk mode...

Power Tech MH - 10 Generator

Reply #20 – October 01, 2010, 08:36:37 am

Generator failure -

New problem, when I accelerate my coach, the generator runs out of fuel and stalls... Any ideas why? , Bad fuel pump? fuel supply line? electrical?

Re: Power Tech MH - 10 Generator

Reply #21 – October 01, 2010, 08:46:23 am

There should be no correlation between coach acceleration and genny operation.
Fuel pickup is about at 1/4 tank level, so if low on fuel genny may be starving out. Worst case is that fuel pickup had broken off in tank and as you accelerate fuel sloshes away from pickup.
Verify that you have fuel.
Check fuel lines to genny for kinks or leaks.
Check at genny for air in fuel at bleed valve.
Good luck

Re: Power Tech MH - 10 Generator

Reply #22 – October 01, 2010, 02:14:46 pm

I agree with Gary, it sure sounds like it is a fuel pickup issue, the puzzle is unless you are accelerating very hard for a long time, the electric pump should catch up quick.
I would try to install a temporary gal plastic jug with diesel fuel, set it in the generator area, or tie it in some where, and give it another try with the acceleration issue.
Should be some difference in how it works, if not, I would look at the wire on the electric fuel pump, as to why it might be loosing the DC voltage while accelerating.
OR fill the fuel tank and retest.
Interesting subject.
Dave

Re: Power Tech MH - 10 Generator

Reply #23 – October 01, 2010, 10:26:53 pm

O.K. , Earlier this year I had a problem with this gen-set not getting enough voltage to crank over from the house batteries alone. I had to, and have to, use the Boost switch to get it to crank over and start. Now I noticed the fuel problem which I want to relate to low voltage at the fuel pump. I am thinking that I have a 12 volt power supply problem to the gen-set from the 12 volt power source, or a bad ground at the gen-set. I cut my trip short and made it home where I now can trouble shoot the problem and not be stranded. I will be looking over the schematics and checking wires until I find the fault... I am open to any and all trouble shooting ideas, and all batteries checked "GOOD" One other question " Does the gen-set produce any 12 vdc power or is the 12 volt power coming from the inverter or isolator block" ??

Re: Power Tech MH - 10 Generator

Reply #24 – October 01, 2010, 10:52:41 pm

Quote

" Does the gen-set produce any 12 vdc power or is the 12 volt power coming from the inverter or isolator block" ??

The Generator is just producing 110VAC.
The Inverter converts the 12VDC to 110VAC.
12 VDC comes from the house batteries.

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