Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Topic: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries (Read 1353 times) previous topic - next topic

Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

October 07, 2010, 09:00:46 pm

I'm not sure if anyone has much experience with a Prosine 3000 inverter/charger but knowing you guys I wouldn't be surprised that we have an expert in the house.

Yesterday, everything was dandy but this evening after arriving in N. Mississippi, we tried to use the Microwave on house inverter power and everything shut down after just a couple of minutes. The Prosine display said low battery voltage was the cause. This was after running over 8 hours at highway speeds on I-40, a very rough drive. I would think that the house batteries would have been fully charged by the engine alternator. The engine voltage meter showed normal charging. After running the Prosine 3000 for 3 hours on shore power, the voltage on the house batteries is still dropping.

Now my questions are could the rough roads have caused some connection to fail? What connections should I check? Would the jiggle factor cause 7 year old house batteries to suddenly go bad? What is the best way to check a gel battery?

Is there anything else I should be looking at before blaming the house batteries? OK guys, this is your chance to shine. HELP!

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #1 – October 07, 2010, 10:26:38 pm

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Yesterday, everything was dandy but this evening after arriving in N. Mississippi, we tried to use the Microwave on house inverter power and everything shut down after just a couple of minutes.

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The engine voltage meter showed normal charging. After running the Prosine 3000 for 3 hours on shore power, the voltage on the house batteries is still dropping.

Were you hooked up to shore power when you used your microwave?

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Now my questions are could the rough roads have caused some connection to fail?

I would say unlikely.

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Would the jiggle factor cause 7 year old house batteries to suddenly go bad?

I would say it is the 7 year old batteries not being able to hold the load of the microwave.
You also could have some battery connections that need cleaning causing resistance.
You need to clean all the connections especially your ground wire to the frame to make sure you are getting all the available amps.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #2 – October 08, 2010, 12:53:45 pm

The first thing I would check is your batteries - sounds like an internal short in a battery, which can be caused by a bumpy ride, particularly in 7 year old batteries. A short can occur even in a new battery - just ask a battery supplier about this.

Here is what to do to determine battery short:
Disconnect all positive (or negative) connectors at each battery (house and chassis).
Let sit for 1 hour to allow battery voltages to stabilize.
Check voltage of each battery - the one which has very low voltage has a shorted cell.
The good batteries which were drawn down by the shorted battery will recover.
Throw away battery with shorted cell and post results to this thread.

If all batteries show similar voltage, you may have a heavy load somewhere which is more difficult to determine.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #3 – October 09, 2010, 12:09:28 am

I don't think your house batteries were being charged by the engine alternator. They would if you had the boost switch on, but otherwise, they will not get power from the alternator. As I understand it there are two sources for house battery recharging: shore power and the generator. So that might be your problem. Just low batteries. Charge them overnight with shore power and see if the inverter works.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #4 – October 09, 2010, 12:25:50 am

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I don't think your house batteries were being charged by the engine alternator. They would if you had the boost switch on, but otherwise, they will not get power from the alternator.

The Alternator DOES charge both sets of batteries thru the isolator.
When you charge with shore power you need the boost switch on to charge both sets of batteries.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #5 – October 09, 2010, 12:37:57 am

Update,

As suggested, I disconnected the batteries. They were each at 12.8 volts. The Javelina system showed them at 11.9. I then used a battery tester that applies a load to the battery. It showed both batteries were good for 400 amp hrs and exactly the same. Conclusion, it is not the batteries.

I then read through the Prosine owners manual. the trouble shooting guide suggested that I disconnect all power to the coach batteries and shore power and leave the power off for at least 30 minutes. I will know more in the morning whether the batteries were charged to their maximum of 13.2 volts. If not, then I guess is will call Prosine for technical assistance.

George, I always get confused about whether the alternator charges the house batteries or not. I think this was covered in some posts about a month ago and I got it backwards then. But as I recall, the inverter/charger does charge the starting batteries even without the boost switch on. The alternator will supply a charge to the house batteries after the starting batteries reach a full charge. If I am correct, the house batteries should have had a full charge after running for 8 hours.

Thanks all for your help. Will post results of Prosine reset tomorrow.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #6 – October 09, 2010, 12:57:56 am

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The alternator will supply a charge to the house batteries after the starting batteries reach a full charge. If I am correct, the house batteries should have had a full charge after running for 8 hours.

The alternator is feeding the isolator which is feeding & charging both sets of batteries at the same time.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #7 – October 09, 2010, 10:32:36 am

Thanks Barry! So they are separate systems (house and engine batteries) when they are discharging, not charging. Good to know.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #8 – October 09, 2010, 02:16:40 pm

Charging/discharging chassis and house batteries can be confusing for the following reasons:

The alternator charges all batteries through isolator diodes. The isolator diodes are one way valves which allow current to flow from alternator to batteries but NOT the opposite way. Think of this like a one way water valve which only allows water to flow one direction down a water line (a back water preventer). This means devices connected to the chassis batteries cannot receive current from the house batteries and visa-versa.

The converter charges the batteries which are connected to it. The converter is permanently connected to the house batteries and only connected to the chassis batteries when the boost switch is on.

Confused yet, now it is going to get a little more complicated but stay with me and you will understand.

The alternator sense voltage, which controls the output of the alternator comes from only the chassis batteries when the boost switch is "OFF". If chassis batteries are fully charged, the alternator will provide a trickle charge to the chassis batteries and only a little more to the house batteries. Driving all day may not be enough to charge heavily discharged house batteries.

The alternator sense voltage, which controls the output of the alternator comes from a combination of chassis and house batteries when the boost switch is ON. This will result in a higher charge rate for discharged house batteries when chassis batteries are charged.

To summarize:
Boost switch "ON" means chassis and house batteries are effectively in a single bank (all joined together). All batteries influence the alternator output and will be charged by the converter (or solar panels if you have them). The danger here is twofold. One, leaving the boost on all the time when boondocking will result in all batteries being discharged together and you may not have enough battery power to start your engine.

Secondly, connecting discharged house batteries to fully charged chassis batteries will cause a very heavy current to flow from chassis batteries to house batteries which could overload the boost solenoid.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #9 – October 09, 2010, 02:44:09 pm

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The alternator sense voltage, which controls the output of the alternator comes from only the chassis batteries when the boost switch is "OFF". If chassis batteries are fully charged, the alternator will provide a trickle charge to the chassis batteries and only a little more to the house batteries. Driving all day may not be enough to charge heavily discharged house batteries.

Wyatt,
Mine seems to work differently.
I have wired a solenoid to my house batteries so I can disconnect them from being charged by the alternator until the engine batteries are fully charged which normally does not take long.
I wait until I see under 10 amps going into the engine batteries and then I flip a toggle switch to connect the house batteries to charge.
I verify the amps by looking at the alternator output & also the house battery input.

This usually jumps the amps quite a bit (much more than a trickle charge) until the house batteries are fully charged and showing under 10 amps charging & then I remove them from charging and run the house with the alternator.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #10 – October 09, 2010, 03:15:01 pm

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Secondly, connecting discharged house batteries to fully charged chassis batteries will cause a very heavy current to flow from chassis batteries to house batteries which could overload the boost solenoid.

And overheat and damage the alternator because of the high amps the house batteries are requesting
___

best, paul
"Thriving not surviving" <(*¿*)>
Paul Schaye (at 2008 NYC Marathon)

See our blog at LazyDazers.com

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #11 – October 09, 2010, 03:45:38 pm

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And overheat and damage the alternator because of the high amps the house batteries are requesting

Thats why I charge the engine batteries first to take some of that load off.
Now the alternator is only charging one set of batteries.
If the house batteries were 30 - 40 % down I would run the gen first to bring them up before I start the coach.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #12 – October 09, 2010, 08:33:48 pm

Sounds like it would be a good idea to start out with the house batteries fully charged (via shore power) and not depend on the alternator.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #13 – October 09, 2010, 08:41:22 pm

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Sounds like it would be a good idea to start out with the house batteries fully charged (via shore power) and not depend on the alternator.

Some here start out once the charger is down to 10 amps
___

best, paul
"Thriving not surviving" <(*¿*)>
It was once thought a million chimps would sooner or later type a great work or two of literature
Now that we have the Internet we know that not to be true....

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #14 – October 09, 2010, 09:46:13 pm

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Sounds like it would be a good idea to start out with the house batteries fully charged (via shore power) and not depend on the alternator.

No need. The 160 amp alternator is capable of charging the batteries so long as they are not deep discharged (which they should not be) and you are not overloading it.
Since I am only charging 1 set at a time what is the harm?
I am well below the rated 160 amps.
You dont always have that many hours to wait charging the batteries by generator to full when you need to get rolling.
But if you do have the time, no harm in waiting until they are fully charged by the Generator other than the cost of fuel.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #15 – October 09, 2010, 10:27:36 pm

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No need. The 160 amp alternator is capable of charging the batteries so long as they are not deep discharged (which they should not be) and you are not overloading it.

Just in case anyone wonders if alternator charging deeply discharged house batteries actually can damage a 160 amp alternator, the previous owner of our 1999 U320 had to replace two alternators because of this issue. We have 3 8D Lifelines as our house batteries.

I wonder how many amps 765 amp-hrs worth of AGMs might ask for if they were deeply discharged?
___

best, paul
"Thriving not surviving" <(*¿*)>
Once some thought a million chimps would sooner or later type a great work of literature
Now that we have the Internet we know that not to be true....

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #16 – October 09, 2010, 10:40:34 pm

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Just in case anyone wonders if alternator charging deeply discharged house batteries actually can damage a 160 amp alternator, the previous owner of our 1999 U320 had to replace two alternators because of this issue. I wonder how many amps 765 amp-hrs worth of AGMs might ask for if they were deeply discharged?

You should never let the batteries get deeply discharged for that reason.
But if you do, you should use your generator to bring them up before you start the coach.

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The 160 amp alternator is capable of charging the batteries so long as they are not deep discharged (which they should not be) and you are not overloading it.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #17 – October 10, 2010, 12:39:45 am

Getting back to my original question, does anyone have experience with the Prosine Inverter/Charger. I have Prosine 3000. Every time i try to use the inverter, it shuts everything down and says I have low battery voltage. Then when I reset the Prosine, it shows I have 13.6 volts until I try to use the inverter again. My Javelina monitor says I have 11.9 volts on the house batteries even after being on shore power for 24 hours. I don't have an digital VM with me but my Analog VM shows approximately 12.8 volts on the batteries disconnected from the electrical system so I don't really know what I am dealing with.

Is the Prosine charger not functioning? Is there a problem with the inverter? Are the batteries bad, remember both show exactly the same voltage and my load tester says they are good? It there some other electrical function that I have not thought to check that can be causing the problem?

I can call Prosine on Monday but I would like to get on the road tomorrow.

Any Ideas?

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #18 – October 10, 2010, 12:52:33 am

Kent,

I usually read these "technical" posts, but don't have a clue. But I think I found a clue in your original question. Could it be that you are expecting too much from 7 year old batteries?

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #19 – October 10, 2010, 12:52:46 am

Kent,
My first thoughts are around your meter, you have three different volt readings, now the question is,which one is near correct.

Have you checked the analog volt meter to see how it is reading? A meter that reads wrong can cause trouble trying to fix anything.

Just my 2 cents worth, you gotta know what the voltage is on the batteries, before and after it shuts down. One of the strong reasons for haveing a peak reading DVM, to see if and how much the voltage drops when you try to use the Prosine.

Otherwise, I have no experience with the Prosine 3000.
Good luck
Dave

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #20 – October 10, 2010, 12:59:17 am

Kent, I know this is basic... Go back to step one... Battery cables clean and tight ? In this part of the country a clean connection can have a hard black layer of corrosion that is hard as concrete and very hard to clean off the posts.
On the charging question... My SOP is: When taking coach out of storage I check battery charge on Panel above door ,13.7 or 8 ( I have the Heart 2500 ) I then I engage boost and start engine. Turn boost off. This ensures that I start with maximum voltage. Check dash gauge for operating alternator, turn on lights AC Etc, gauge should dip then stabilize. Last check is after loading coach I use VM to actually check voltage at starting batteries. Maybe not as accurate as using a Load Tester but last thing you want to do to an alternator is load it up with discharged batteries or bad cable connections, it is designed to OPERATE systems not as a battery charger.
If I discover that batteries are low I then get out the 110 battery charger but I have not had to do this in a couple years as long as Inverter/charger is working and connections are tight and clean.
Don't mean to beat the subject to death.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #21 – October 10, 2010, 01:47:19 am

I think Prosine would bought out by Xantrex a number of years ago. I had some questions about my Xantrex inverter/charger and called Xantrex last Spring. I think their offices are in British Columbia, Canada. They were basically no help at all. I did hear about a guy south of Seattle that does repair Prosine products, but I didn't contact him. If you want his phone number, send me a PM and I'll try and find it for you. The attitude at Xantrex seemed to be, if it is broken, throw it away and buy a new one.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #22 – October 10, 2010, 07:56:55 am

Well, if they were 50%, it would be 380 amps. Over two hours.

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #23 – October 10, 2010, 08:14:23 am

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Well, if they were 50%, it would be 380 amps. Over two hours.

What was the question?
___

best, paul
"Thriving not surviving" <(*¿*)>
Some once thought a million chimps would sooner or later type great works of literature
Now that we have the Internet we know that not to be true....

Re: Prosine 3000/Alternator not Charging House Batteries

Reply #24 – October 10, 2010, 10:20:05 am

Thanks for all of the replies.

George, from what I know about batteries the fact that they are both at the same voltage and the load test is positive, it isn't the batteries.

Dave, I actually have four readings. I have two analog meters both showing the same readings so I presume they are OK. The other meters are the readout on the Prosine and the readout on the Javelina system. I will check this morning to see what the voltage drop is when the cables are attached versus unattached.

Gary, the terminals were clean but I wire brushed them anyhow. I do not have the Heart 2500, only the Javelina and the Prosine readout and a new VDO alternator gauge in the dash. The alternator seems to be working just fine. Starting batteries are at 13.1 and House batteries not hooked up to the coach are 12.8 volts. It starts just fine without the boost on. My coach seldom sets more than two weeks.

George, I will send you that PM if I need that number, but I doubt that I will be able to go to Washington.

After sleeping on the problem, I am now thinking that the problem may be the isolator. It appears that the charger side of the Prosine is putting out 13.8 Volts to charge the batteries and the batteries are at 12.8 which is enough to operate the inverter but the charging voltage is not getting to the batteries and the voltage coming from the batteries to the inverter is being reduced to 11.8 which is too low for the inverter to operate.

I have not located the isolator on this coach and don't know much about them. Can anyone tell me where the isolator is no my 93 U300 and how to check it or repair it?

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