Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

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Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

January 27, 2011, 10:08:02 am

I saw them at the Quartzsite show. These super neat looking wide base tires are designed to replace duals in RVs. They claim reduced energy consumption (two sidewalls vice four), lower unsprung weight (about 450 lbs), and much better performance. Is anyone using them? Other than the conversion cost of switching wheels any down sides? I'll try to get in to town and get actual prices in the next day or so.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #1 – January 27, 2011, 10:58:15 am

Quote

These super neat looking wide base tires are designed to replace duals in RVs

I would worry about a flat. You can limp off a busy road on a single inflated dual. I would also worry about the availability of a replacement if you have the flat in podunk.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #2 – January 27, 2011, 11:05:24 am

There have been a few individuals on IRV2 that made the change on SOBs. You can about break even on the cost by selling your old rims (4 conventional tires vs 2 new rims and 2 wide tires). They are in high demand by truckers.
Bottom line is its a subtle improvement in ride quality. Real issue is how long it will take to get a replacement on a blowout. You ain't gonna limp anywhere on one dual!

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #3 – January 27, 2011, 11:11:53 am

I once saw a semi that had these tires on the tractor drive wheels. One was flat and the mechanic that was called to change the tire removed the tire from the rim and installed a new one without ever removing the rim. Of course there was no fender in the way to hinder the process. Maybe they do that with outside duals too. Never really thought about it much. Hard to believe that switching would ever be cost effective, one would just have to want the cool look.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #4 – January 27, 2011, 12:05:04 pm

Quote from: Harvey Nelson – January 27, 2011, 10:08:02 am

I saw them at the Quartzsite show. These super neat looking wide base tires are designed to replace duals in RVs. They claim reduced energy consumption (two sidewalls vice four), lower unsprung weight (about 450 lbs), and much better performance. Is anyone using them? Other than the conversion cost of switching wheels any down sides? I'll try to get in to town and get actual prices in the next day or so.

Harvey,
I'm just an interested bystander, but, from an engineering standpoint, they don't make sense. They look "cool" but I'd have a lot of questions, and I'm not sure how one could assure that you get/or validate the quality of answers. For example:
1. Much higher cost for the new wheels
2. Higher cost of tire (Overall, about equal to a set of duals?)
3. A balloon wants to be round (not have a flat side - for road contact)
4. The cord design is massive to make it non-round (flat contact with road) and perfectly square under the range of expected conditions (to prevent uneven wear), at very high pressures. It would also seem to be necessary to preload the design with considerable stress, just to achieve this.
5. Sidewalls also have to be much more massive because two sidewalls must accommodate the dynamic loading stresses previously shared by four sidewalls.
6. Massive sidewalls generate more heat under flex and turning/center of gravity shift torque.
7. Massive sidewalls degrade sooner and faster from heat. At their limits, radials last much longer than the stiffer, more massive bias ply design.
8. Massive sidewalls generate much more throughput of shock energy (ride much harder/stiffer). When they first came out, radials were the "new age miracle" because they absorbed this road shock energy, rather than transmitted it through the stiff belted ply sidewalls. Super singles seem to give much of this advantage away for "cool factor".
9. At interstate highway speed, losing one super single to a road hazard has to be much less safe than losing one-half of a set of duals.
10. When that massive single fails, what are the chances that it will do less damage to the coach than one half of a set of duals failing?
11. Can all truck tire dealerships accommodate the servicing of super singles (do they have the necessary equipment to do it without damaging or destroying those expensive new rims?
12. I can see where a trucking company might be able to achieve a benefit. But they are not as concerned with ride harshness and delicate bodywork with very tight clearances. They also, in their use, are not (generally) relying on a single drive or single support axle configuration.
13. I'd want to know why a number of large trucking outfits have migrated to this design and then back to standard tires, based on the failure of these super singles to meet their expectations.
14. Where are you going to find a replacement? Your options and bargaining power are greatly reduced.
15. Road contact patch may even be reduced (less stopping and emergency handling advantage).
16. Sensitivity to over and under-inflation is magnified due to trying to keep that super balloon squarely in contact with the road.
And for a whole bunch of other engineering reasons, that I don't remember.
My son (Trucking owner/operator) says he wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole.
Anyway, Harvey, just my rambling.
Neal

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #5 – January 27, 2011, 01:04:15 pm

I had super singles on a 53', 102" wide, 13'6" trailer (had to stay in Florida with it) I pulled back in early 1980s. Did not like them back them. Then again before retiring in the late 1990s, early 2000s on both tractor and trailer. Liked them even less then. Talk about hydroplaning! They would really hydroplane on hot asphault, it did not have to be wet. And if you had a flat tire, sit there forever waiting and hoping. No way on my Foretravel.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #6 – January 27, 2011, 01:13:03 pm

If you notice, most tractors and trailers that run super singles have tandem axles,have a flat ,remove the wheel and chain up the axle and head for the nearest tire shop.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #7 – January 27, 2011, 01:18:19 pm

I'm thinking that Newmar was or is using these in some fifth wheels to boost GVW at two tandem axles works in that situation. But, I never followed up on their development on fivers.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #8 – January 27, 2011, 01:20:32 pm

Quote from: Bill Willett – January 27, 2011, 01:13:03 pm

If you notice, most tractors and trailers that run super singles have tandem axles,have a flat ,remove the wheel and chain up the axle and head for the nearest tire shop.

Not with a tanker hauling flammable liquids. Don't go anywhere with any type of flat. DOT law.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #9 – January 27, 2011, 02:33:27 pm

Quote from: PatC – January 27, 2011, 01:04:15 pm

......................Talk about hydroplaning! They would really hydroplane on hot asphault, it did not have to be wet.................................

Excellent point!
Forgot that point and it's perhaps the most important! I know that one NE fuel delivery company abandoned their changeout to super singles (went back to standard tires) because they had so many accidents and close calls in wet and slushy conditions.
Neal

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #10 – January 27, 2011, 05:28:24 pm

Someone should talk to Flying J/Pilot, Exxon, Amoco and other fuel delivery companies that are hauling gasoline and diesel fuel with their super single equipped tanker trucks.
Maybe recommend they have a safety man keep up with the foreforums tech section for the proper way to equip and operate their trucks.

Take a look around, there are more and more trucks being setup with the super single arrangement, seems 25% of the new trucks are using it.
FWIW

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #11 – January 27, 2011, 06:05:53 pm

Dave,
Better to ask the driver who has to drive with them on the rig, than the guy sitting behind the desk counting the beans! He only knows about the beans, and can't seem to connect them to each other. As a driver trainer, I worked very closely with the safety department. The only thing that are about is hauling more weight and being cheap. And they got a deal when they first started using them. The bean counter got caught in the deal.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #12 – January 27, 2011, 06:37:15 pm

PatC, I do not like the idea of the singles, but I have talked to one driver who drives for a trash hauler from the big cities who is running them, He claims they are fine. Maybe either he is too dumb to notice or does not drive aggressively and has not encountered snow, ice, wet or hot road yet.

It seems to me that if they were dangerous, there would be one of many govt centers involved in many class action suits. Heck think of the liability issues for the tire makers, truck makers anyone involved in selling these dangerous tires.

I have no experience with them, nor so I want any. I just can not understand how the govt would knowingly allow such dangerous tires.

I know they work great in soft ground for good floatation vs duals.
Cheers

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #13 – January 27, 2011, 06:41:35 pm

Quote from: Dave M – January 27, 2011, 06:37:15 pm

just can not understand how the govt would knowingly allow such dangerous tires.

The government knowingly allows a lot of dangerous activities where industry lobbies are involved.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #14 – January 27, 2011, 06:48:19 pm

I just can't imagine having a single tire on the rear. I don't have the experience that so many of you do, but I like the idea of being able to limp to safty with one dual left rather than risk a blow-out and possible damage to the fiberglass etc. I think they're a bad idea...but that may just be me

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #15 – January 27, 2011, 07:40:33 pm

Carl, The fiberglass is just part of the damage, the other is the damage to the tire rim, they are not cheap either. Either tire setup will usually cause some damage.
I fully agree with your idea of dual wheels.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #16 – January 27, 2011, 11:35:30 pm

Wow!!! I appreciate all the great feedback. It is quite obvious that the consensus is very negative on switching to super wide singles (at least at this time).

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #17 – January 28, 2011, 08:53:41 am

Harvey, Yes, this is about the same as a Ford vs Chevy discussion, everyone has an many opinions and not enough facts.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #18 – January 28, 2011, 08:58:00 am

Or, perhaps, "Everything's been said, but not everyone has said it" ;o)

best, paul

Quote

Harvey, Yes, this is about the same as a Ford vs Chevy discussion, everyone has an many opinions and not enough facts.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #19 – January 28, 2011, 09:24:03 am

Like Pat C said, most of the trucking co's use them for reduced weight, primarily haulers that haul by the ton. I've only had one owner operator leased to me that used them. Personally I would worry about them from the moment I pulled out of the drive way if they were on my coach. My owner operator lost a weeks work when he went to replace his. Spent alot of time shopping for replacements he felt like he could afford. Sold the truck and vowed never to have super singles again. To few vendors offering them to give a buyer any bargaining power.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #20 – January 28, 2011, 09:25:34 am

Dave M, these are facts.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #21 – January 28, 2011, 10:37:53 am

Yep, Facts based on which story?
Might google "Super Single Truck Tires" then read many of the stories on the forum they have.
Truckers report mileage of 438 K on a set, wore them down to 3/32" before replacing them.
How they feel about traction when tread depth is good "We all know how well a smooth tire grabs snow", etc.
Some drivers do not like them, but a lot do like them, so it sounds like a opinion does it not?
The main complaint is being stuck if and when they have a blow out.
The smart operators keep a very close look at the tire pressure and do not use the "Thump" method and report very good luck using super singles.

My ideas are based on reading all the info available, and not solely by reading uneducated opinions from non experienced users.

As stated earlier, I have zero interest in using them, I am too old and too stupid and I am not concerned about payload nor mileage nor fuel usage, just happly rolling down the road.
Everyone has to do what they feel good about, no matter how stupid a few others think you are.

FWIW as usual

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #22 – January 28, 2011, 03:14:31 pm

Pat C, I started trucking in late 69 and can't recall what year we first started seeing the super singles. They hadn't been out very long when I picked up a driver who had sidewall failure just outside of El Paso and took him to the 76 truckstop. I went on to Pheonix and delivered and when I got back to El Paso that truck was still sitting on the shoulder of the road the next day. Seen that a few times in the span of 41 years trucking. Now I don't know if you can find that on google or not but having seen to many times with my eye's takes away the need.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #23 – January 28, 2011, 05:05:08 pm

Quote from: dub – January 28, 2011, 03:14:31 pm

Pat C, I started trucking in late 69 and can't recall what year we first started seeing the super singles. They hadn't been out very long when I picked up a driver who had sidewall failure just outside of El Paso and took him to the 76 truckstop. I went on to Pheonix and delivered and when I got back to El Paso that truck was still sitting on the shoulder of the road the next day. Seen that a few times in the span of 41 years trucking. Now I don't know if you can find that on google or not but having seen to many times with my eye's takes away the need.

I started in 1970 after Vietnam and ended up back on active duty between '76 thru '82. Got out in 1982 and brought one of Tropicana Orange Juice's old Kenworths. Signed on with John J. Jerue Transportation, Inc. out of Bartow and Pompano Beach, Fl. Pulled his trailers hauling export citrus and fruit to the docks. He also had beer contracts and we moved orange concentrate from one cold storage to another(?). The trailers, brand new, were box trailers, 53 foot long, 102 inches wide and 13.6 high. They had the super singles and were the only I had ever seen at the time. No one else in Florida was running them. Those trailers were not allowed out of state because they were not legal in Alabama or Georgia. But we did "sneak" a ways into Georgia once in a while to get a load of mulch to pay fuel going back to get the export fruit. The only guys who liked them were the "cowboys" who liked to leave the wide black marks on the highway. If you dropped them off the pavement on Rt 60, it took a mile to get them back on the pavement, and the tractor would be on the other side of the road while trying to get the trailer straight again. And when it rained, wow, hated them. Pulled them while working for Jureu for about a year, then went on to "bigger and better things

.

My last 20 years was with one of the union contract petroleum carriers out of NW Pennsylvania. Our terminal hauled pretty much exclusively for 2 different refineries. As I said, I was a driver trainer for them and worked very closely with the safety department in that aspect. They tried out the super singles, and are still running them on some of the heavy hauler rigs with overweight permits. Those rigs stay close to home and don't run over the road. They are only permitted to exit Pennsylvania and run in NYS exclusively. The company does their own tire service which runs out of the main terminal. They run as far as 200 miles to change a tire. Petroleum rigs can not run with a flat tire as it is a violation of DOT regulations. So you sit were ever it goes flat or blows out. You can't drive to the next exit like other rigs can.

Re: Any One Using Michelin X One Tires to replace duals?

Reply #24 – January 29, 2011, 12:35:09 pm

The only vehicle of mine that runs A super-single [ my chrome plated racing wheel barrow ] On my Foretravel ? NO WAY .

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