starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

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Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #25 – February 09, 2011, 06:10:07 pm

I am having trouble believing that Foretravel would put in such a small battery compartment for a starting battery. My '91 GV has two 8D's, one for starting and one for house. My Cat 3208 starts just fine on one battery if it is not weak. You should have a block heater. If you are plugged into shore power turn it on. If not, start the gen set and then switch it on. It will make a tremendous difference in the ease of starting.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #26 – February 09, 2011, 08:27:29 pm

Quote from: John Cooper – February 09, 2011, 06:10:07 pm

I am having trouble believing that Foretravel would put in such a small battery compartment for a starting battery. My '91 GV has two 8D's, one for starting and one for house. My Cat 3208 starts just fine on one battery if it is not weak. You should have a block heater. If you are plugged into shore power turn it on. If not, start the gen set and then switch it on. It will make a tremendous difference in the ease of starting.

After what you guys have shared, I have trouble believing it as well. The battery holder is welded steel, and looks factory. There is no room for anything much larger than what it has. I could go wider than 14 in a battery, if I modified the battery tray, but I would still be limited to about 8 inches deep. There is no way an 8D would fit in the existing space. The battery is mounted to the passenger side, just inside the hood/ grill/ grate-thing on the back.

I wondered about relocating the battery. I would have to go about half way forward for an open space (in front of the water tanks).

If I was reassured the setup worked when proper, I would know to look for repairs. But it seems everybody is running one or two 8Ds or some comparable setup, which suggests to me my fully-charged, apparently good battery is the problem. Is it just too small to be adequate?

I do have a block heater, but have never used it. We have only been on the road for one night below 40 or so, and it was a surprise. With the "emergency" switch, it started with no problems on that one 20-degree night. How long does it need to be on to be effective?

Starter works fine with the emergency switch on, though I suppose it could be weakened.

oldMattB

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #27 – February 09, 2011, 08:40:43 pm

I was just looking at Barry's specifications for a 1994 U240. It lists a 1600 CCA gel cell for the engine battery, and a 408 reserve minutes gel cell for the coach battery

Do you think these are both 8Ds, and do you suppose my coach was rewired? I have two 8Ds (I think that is what they are - they are big ones) for house batteries. The house batteries are just ahead of the driver's rear tire.

oldMattB

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #28 – February 09, 2011, 08:58:18 pm

Matt,
You have one of the better coaches Foretravel ever built. Get the right battery in there and it will perform for you the way it was intended.

Try this for size:

Heavyduty Truck Batteries - Workaholic - 1400 CCA

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #29 – February 09, 2011, 09:35:46 pm

Quote from: Peter & Beth – February 09, 2011, 08:58:18 pm

Matt,
You have one of the better coaches Foretravel ever built. Get the right battery in there and it will perform for you the way it was intended.

Try this for size:

Heavyduty Truck Batteries - Workaholic - 1400 CCA

I am trying. The 8D is four inches deeper and 7 3/4 wider than the existing tray, and 2 1/2 inches deeper than the space in the engine compartment, were I to custom-make a tray to take all the available space. There is a tube, I think the intercooler tubing, in the way on the engine side, and the fiberglass frame of the engine door on the outside.

oldMattB

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #30 – February 09, 2011, 10:34:42 pm

Quote from: oldmattb – February 09, 2011, 08:40:43 pm

I was just looking at Barry's specifications for a 1994 U240. It lists a 1600 CCA gel cell for the engine battery, and a 408 reserve minutes gel cell for the coach battery

Do you think these are both 8Ds, and do you suppose my coach was rewired? I have two 8Ds (I think that is what they are - they are big ones) for house batteries. The house batteries are just ahead of the driver's rear tire.

oldMattB

Matt, my 93 U225 had all of the batteries in the compartment on the passenger side in front of the rear tires. I had two series 27 lead acid starting batteries and one 8D house battery. I installed a 4D as a backup in case my other batteries conked out but never had to use it. I just had to make sure I charged it monthly. I know the battery compartment would accommodate two 8D's, maybe three 8D's or one 8D and two series 27 starting batteries. My coach had two heavy duty red battery cables and two black coming out of the chassis into the battery bay. The red/black pair toward the front are for starting and the two toward the rear are for the house.

I too don't think Foretravel installed that battery tray. It sure sounds like someone has messed with your setup. Even my little 230 hp Cummins used two starting batteries. I think it came with two Red Tops.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #31 – February 10, 2011, 12:30:03 am

Quote from: Kent Speers – February 09, 2011, 10:34:42 pm

Even my little 230 hp Cummins used two starting batteries. I think it came with two Red Tops.

My '94 Cummins 5.9 too. Mine had two Red Tops which I replaced with two Interstate MTP-27s.

But I am almost positive that I have two 8D gel coach batteries. But I am not planning on opening that compartment for about 3 weeks. I check and know for sure than. Had to take one of them out when I changed the air cleaner, and boy it sure seems like there were two. I remember being very happy that we only had to take out one.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #32 – February 10, 2011, 12:34:12 am

Quote from Matt: "No change, engine won't turn over, and voltage drops to
1. volts at starter and at the battery when the start button is pushed. "

Matt,
Turn on your block (engine) heater the night before, or at least 5-6 hours before trying to crank the engine next time, especially with the temperatures you mentioned.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #33 – February 10, 2011, 12:42:56 am

And turn you Boost switch ( "emergency" switch) on the night before you plan on leaving provided you are on shore power. It will charge your chassis battery up. But if you have a Trik-L-Start, you don't need to turn on the Boost switch.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #34 – February 10, 2011, 03:59:34 pm

Good advice all.

I went back and looked at the coach again. I have two 8Ds in parallel in front of the driver rear axle. I do not see any extra cables. The mount in the battery compartment really looks stock - similar patina on the metal, similar welds to those elsewhere, including a couple that probably could not have been done on an assembled coach. All of the cables, including those to the engine battery have the same type ends, shrink tubing, comparable gauge for application, etc. Aside from not working, the workmanship is quite nice.

There is not enough room among the two 8Ds for an additional big battery, and I like having the two 8Ds for house batteries. I found a Group 30H that will fit in the existing space that claims 1205 Cold Cranking Amperes compared to the 1400 on an 8D, so that might be a possibility.

We will be on the road soon, so all of this will be sorted out later.

Maybe this is something to add to the "what does this switch do" box of Foretravel mysteries.

oldMattB

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #35 – February 10, 2011, 04:17:45 pm

Quote from: PatC – February 10, 2011, 12:30:03 am

Quote from: Kent Speers – February 09, 2011, 10:34:42 pm
Even my little 230 hp Cummins used two starting batteries. I think it came with two Red Tops.
My '94 Cummins 5.9 too. Mine had two Red Tops which I replaced with two Interstate MTP-27s.

But I am almost positive that I have two 8D gel coach batteries. But I am not planning on opening that compartment for about 3 weeks. I check and know for sure than. Had to take one of them out when I changed the air cleaner, and boy it sure seems like there were two. I remember being very happy that we only had to take out one.

Pat, if you have two 8D's in the battery compartment, are your two red top starting batteries also there or are they in the engine compartment?

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #36 – February 10, 2011, 04:20:30 pm

On a 1994 U240, the starting batteries are in the engine room.

1993 U240, they are in the battery compartment in front of the passenger's rear tire.

Brett

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #37 – February 10, 2011, 04:25:53 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – February 10, 2011, 04:20:30 pm

On a 1994 U240, the starting batteries are in the engine room.

1993 U240, they are in the battery compartment in front of the passenger's rear tire.

Brett

Mine has batteries on the driver's side in front of the rear tire, and no room for even one 8d in the engine room. Not sure what I have anymore...

oldMattB

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #38 – February 10, 2011, 04:31:33 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – February 10, 2011, 04:20:30 pm

On a 1994 U240, the starting batteries are in the engine room.

1993 U240, they are in the battery compartment in front of the passenger's rear tire.

Brett

Does it make sense that Matt would have only one starting battery from the factory?

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #39 – February 10, 2011, 05:28:08 pm

Not one "small" one, no.

Will e-mail a friend who has a 1994 U240 and ask him to check what he has.

Brett

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #40 – February 10, 2011, 06:34:50 pm

Quote from: oldmattb – February 10, 2011, 04:25:53 pm

and no room for even one 8d in the engine room. Not sure what I have anymore...

oldMattB

Wish I had a head scratchy little guy!!! The 8D on my '94 U225 is right smack in front of the air cleaner, and the only way to change the air cleaner is to pull the 8D battery. And you know how heavy they are! and my chassis batteries are behind the wheels too, on the other side!

And does it make sense that Matt would only have one chassis battery. With a used coach - anything is possible. I have read of people using a 8D as a start battery. Who knows!!!

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #41 – February 10, 2011, 06:53:56 pm

Quote

Can you take a photo of that extra ground? It would be very helpful.
Thanks.

George,
Here are the pictures of the extra ground I ran on my coach. I do not know if this will help Matt much and I do not mean to take over his post by any means. I used 2/0 AWG as my extra ground wire which was purchased from NAPA. The picture looks as though the wire is close to my mud flap, but just a bad angle.

Thanks,

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #42 – February 10, 2011, 07:20:04 pm

Quote from: PatC – February 10, 2011, 06:34:50 pm

Quote from: oldmattb – February 10, 2011, 04:25:53 pm
and no room for even one 8d in the engine room. Not sure what I have anymore...

oldMattB
Wish I had a head scratchy little guy!!! The 8D on my '94 U224 is right smack in front of the air cleaner, and the only way to change the air cleaner is to pull the 8D battery. And you know how heavy they are! and my chassis batteries are behind the wheels too, on the other side!

And does it make sense that Matt would only have one chassis battery. With a used coach - anything is possible. I have read of people using a 8D as a start battery. Who knows!!!

This is all so interesting - so many variations on production vehicles. On my '94 the air cleaner is on the driver's side, and if I remember correctly is within 4-5 inches of the engine bay door. No room for a battery between it and the bay door, and no room for anything much larger between it, the oil reservoir, and the other stuff in there. There is not 20.75 inches of space. I must have had a house battery and start battery in the bay. Maybe my current "engine" battery was originally for a trailer - electric brakes, inverter, or the like, and was converted to a start battery. All of it sure looks factory - matching cables, welding, materials, etc.

So the additional ground is simple - big fat wire from negative terminal to frame. The negative wire from my "starting" battery goes directly to the ground post on the starter, then to the engine block, then to the frame. I don't know my wire gauges, but it is as thick as my thumb, probably at least 3/4 inch with insulation. For getting the juice to the starter, it looks like a good setup - between battery and starter, both positive and negative, there is probably not six feet of very fat wire. My hot wire looked like it went directly to the hot on the starter, along with the wire from the house batteries (switched by the emergency switch).

oldMattB

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #43 – February 10, 2011, 10:08:49 pm

Quote from: oldmattb – February 10, 2011, 07:20:04 pm

so many variations on production vehicles. On my '94 the air cleaner is on the driver's side, and if I remember correctly is within 4-5 inches of the engine bay door. No room for a battery between it and the bay door, and no room for anything much larger between it, the oil reservoir, and the other stuff in there.

But you have a Cat with a side radiator, while I have a Cummins with rear radiator. That changes our configurations greatly.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #44 – February 11, 2011, 09:54:21 pm

Not to muddy the waters, but you need to check each connection where they are crimped on the batt cables (no matter how good they look I found 5 bad connections at the crimp on mine), the way you do this as Bret said one meter lead on the connection on one side the other lead on the wire directly past the connector. Test must be done under a load the voltage you are reading is what you are losing through that connection. A quick test is to attempt to start your coach then go touch all the battery connections both + and - from the battery to the starter if you find one hot it's bad(assuming your starter is OK). Also you need to check starter draw(amps) In short if you are not real comfortable using a volt ohm meter you need to enlist the services of a Hd truck shop with a good electric tech, other wise you will be pulling your hair out this time next month. You also need to look in the books that came from Foretravel with the coach that will tell you what battery(s) is supposed to be in the coach for starting. If you don't have the books you can call F/T tech assistance with your SN or build # I'm sure they can tell you.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #45 – February 11, 2011, 10:51:13 pm

On the 92 U240 (at least mine) the batteries are as Brett said, passenger side forward of rear wheels sitting in a tray large enough for 2 8D batteries...one for chassis and one for coach. The 8D starts the 3116 with no problem.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #46 – February 12, 2011, 08:04:20 am

Yes, U240 battery configuration changed between 1993 and 1994 with the move to walk around queen bed/different radiator configuration.

Brett

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #47 – February 13, 2011, 10:22:20 pm

We have done a good bit of driving since my last post. If I try to restart the engine within about five minutes of stopping, the start battery will do it. More than five minutes, it will not turn the engine over, and I need the boost switch. I think the battery is just too small for the job. Connections, crimps, grounds would all make a difference, but not from one minute to the next, would they?

oldMattB

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #48 – February 13, 2011, 11:21:03 pm

Batteries take on a "surface" charge as I remember which is why you wait a while to check one after charging. That may be what is happening to you. It really does sound like your battery is too small for the job.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #49 – February 13, 2011, 11:39:12 pm

Stop at an Auto Zone or Checker and get it load tested and you will know for sure if it is the battery or not. All of the items you mentioned WILL make a difference. Some will make it a BIG difference.

Regards,
Jon Twork

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