starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

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starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

February 07, 2011, 11:56:56 pm

Our coach has one starting battery.

I spent some time with the search function, and everyone seems to have multiple starting batteries (admittedly with some pretty big engines, too). With a cold engine, I always have to use the boost to turn the engine over. I tested the battery with a load charger, and it shows about 13 volts. Terminals and cables are clean, tight, and corrosion-free.

Is my battery weak? Is this normal for one battery? Did I lose one somewhere? Should I have a bigger single battery? I am OK with the situation, but I feel like it should not be that way, and would like to know, when my furnaces deplete my house batteries, I could still get going.

What say you?

Matt B

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #1 – February 08, 2011, 12:34:31 am

Matt,
I personaly would install a second battery. Not sure but the second battery may be better for your starter. Others will hopefully confirm my "gut" feeling.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #2 – February 08, 2011, 01:02:52 am

I use just one 8D flooded battery (available at Sam's Club $150) down to temperatures of 40 degrees. Lower temps than that I would need to use the boost for a few minutes. No problem at -2 degrees when in Flagstaff, AZ. I make it a practice to not spend time in area where the temps are below 65 degrees but, that's just me.

Regards,
Jon Twork

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #3 – February 08, 2011, 02:09:03 am

Quoting Matt:"Is my battery weak? Is this normal for one battery? Did I lose one somewhere? Should I have a bigger single battery?"

It all depends on the size of that single battery and the size of your engine. If it's an 8D, it should be sufficient for even the C8.3's. You haven't indicated which engine you have. If you have an M-11 or larger, you might want to have two batteries; again the battery size makes a difference. Like Jon Twork, I use a single 8 D flooded battery, but I routinely switch the boost on just before starting the engine and turn it off immediately afterwards. We have had few issues in 7 1/2 years of using one starting battery.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #4 – February 08, 2011, 07:30:03 am

Don is right on. WHAT single battery to you have.

As he said, if an 8D, and it is in good condition, and it is charged up (your coach did not come with provisions for charging of the chassis battery from the factory), and the connections are clean and tight, that is perfect to start your Caterpillar 3116.

Brett

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #5 – February 08, 2011, 07:46:46 am

We have a Cummins C8.3 engine. Our starting batteries are a pair of series 34 Optima Red Top AGM batteries. At 24F, without preheat from a block heater, they would not turn the engine at all. The engine would not turn even with the boost switch on. After that test, we always use the block heater for subfreezing temps.

We started using the same method as Don Hay regarding starting. We turn on the boost before starting and turn it off when the engine is running. The starter is "snappier."

When hooked to shore power, I leave the boost switch on. We have AGM batteries for starting and for house batteries. I chose to use AGM batteries for both banks so that it would be appropriate to leave the boost switch on and charge them together while on shore power. The converter/charger is set to charge AGM batteries.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #6 – February 08, 2011, 08:41:04 am

I do have the Cat 3116, but I have not gone over to look at the battery type yet. Brett, when you say the coach does not have a provision for charging the battery, I am assuming you mean when the coach is not running. Does the alternator charge the battery when it is running? What parasitic loads are usually on the starting battery of a coach like mine?

Would it make sense that the battery is compromised, but the typical load battery tester does not place enough load on it to reveal the weakness?

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #7 – February 08, 2011, 09:08:47 am

Matt,

Yes, the alternator, through the diode-based isolator does charge both battery banks.

The converter or inverter/charger did not.

And, your engine is a perfect load tester. Verify that all connections at battery and engine (including ground) are clean and tight.

Check with a digital voltmeter at the battery and again at the large starter lug. If voltage at the battery drops below 11.5 VDC while cranking the engine, battery is bad (or not charged). If voltage while cranking is more than .3 VDC higher at battery than at starter large lug, your connections may be dirty or loose. An alternative is to check between chassis battery positive lug and starter positive lug. Over about .3 VDC while cranking means clean/tighten connections.

As, as suggested, turning on battery boost/combine will add the power of the house batteries to aid in starting. It will also allow the converter, through the house batteries to charge the chassis battery.

Brett

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #8 – February 08, 2011, 09:44:45 am

Matt,
My coach never was spinning the starter very fast from the first day I purchased and I thought that was just the M11. All the batteries tested good and I cleaned all the connections which helped very little. I then meet Dave M. at Extreme and he showed me where he added another ground from the engine batteries to the frame. My engine starts the best it every has after adding that ground and some of my flaky dash issues went away. James T. thought they were ground issues, but they still persisted after I cleaned the grounds. Adding the extra ground cured them.

Brett would know if your model coach would benefit from the extra ground.

Thanks,

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #9 – February 08, 2011, 09:54:53 am

Quote from: Brad – February 08, 2011, 09:44:45 am

Matt,
My coach never was spinning the starter very fast from the first day I purchased and I thought that was just the M11. All the batteries tested good and I cleaned all the connections which helped very little. I then meet Dave M. at Extreme and he showed me where he added another ground from the engine batteries to the frame. My engine starts the best it every has after adding that ground and some of my flaky dash issues went away. James T. thought they were ground issues, but they still persisted after I cleaned the grounds. Adding the extra ground cured them.

Brett would know if your model coach would benefit from the extra ground.

Thanks,

On any system, to determine if an additional ground would be of value, put a digital voltmeter on ground lug of engine and negative terminal of chassis battery. If voltage reads over about .3 VDC when cranking, consider an additional ground wire and/or clean and tighten existing connections.

Brett

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #10 – February 08, 2011, 12:19:52 pm

The battery has only one marking, a small C62B melted into the top. The dimensions of the battery are 8 1/2" high, 7" wide and 13" deep, which makes it similar in size to a group 43 or group 27F. It has screw terminals, not slug terminals. The space for a battery is up to 14" high, 14" deep and 9" wide. The space nor the battery is anywhere near the size of an 8D (20 3/4 x 11 1/8 x 9 7/8).

I will check voltage drop when I am relieved of puppy supervision duty.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #11 – February 08, 2011, 03:35:22 pm

I put a meter on the battery and "cranked" the engine, though it would not turn over. Voltage at the battery dropped from 12.5 to 11.5ish. I did not check the voltage at the starter. So do you think it is a bad battery, or a too-small battery?

An 8D would be dandy, but it would require fabricating a new battery tray and retainer, and at least one new cable. I would like something that would fit in the existing tray, if it would be adequate.

Ideas?

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #12 – February 08, 2011, 03:51:19 pm

You will want either a single 8D starting battery or two group 34's to start your Caterpillar 3116.

And when voltage dropped from 12.5 to 11.5 VDC was the engine turning over? normal speed, slowly, not at all?

11.5 under high load would suggest to me that before you spend $$ that you clean and tighten connections both positive and ground, and only then look at spending $$.

You could also verify this by putting a voltmeter from positive terminal of chassis battery to large positive lug of the starter and determining voltage drop. Repeat clean place on engine block to negative terminal of chassis battery.

Brett

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #13 – February 08, 2011, 06:02:22 pm

Cleaned the ground connections. One connection to the frame was really grimy and really hard to get undone to clean. Could not get the hot on the starter loose to clean it - lots of hoses and stuff in the vicinity, and I could not budge the nut with an 8" handle. It may not be clean, but it sure is tight. Started and ran the engine for about ten minutes and shut it off. Battery showed 13.5 volts, after this short charge time. I attached the load tester to the battery and gave it a load for two ten second intervals. The battery was down to 11.5 volts. Sounds like a battery needing replacement? I have it plugged-in right now, with the boost switch on. I will test the battery again in the AM, and do the voltage drop test if I can get a helper.

We are on the road later this week, so if the battery is faulty, I am inclined to replace like for like, or the biggest that will fit in the allowable space, and indulge Brett's sage advice when time permits.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #14 – February 08, 2011, 07:27:33 pm

Quote from: Brad – February 08, 2011, 09:44:45 am

Matt,
My coach never was spinning the starter very fast from the first day I purchased and I thought that was just the M11. All the batteries tested good and I cleaned all the connections which helped very little. I then meet Dave M. at Extreme and he showed me where he added another ground from the engine batteries to the frame. My engine starts the best it every has after adding that ground and some of my flaky dash issues went away. James T. thought they were ground issues, but they still persisted after I cleaned the grounds. Adding the extra ground cured them.

Brett would know if your model coach would benefit from the extra ground.

Thanks,

Hey Matt,

Can you take a photo of that extra ground? It would be very helpful.
Thanks.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #15 – February 08, 2011, 07:27:54 pm

My 96 U295 has one 8D starting battery, and when I first bought it it was a little "sluggish" starting. I put a new Interstate 1350CCA in, and it still seemed weak. THOROUGHLY cleaned all connections, and the thing jumps to life the instant you turn the key. Brett is the mastermind here, but IMHO, connections is the 1st place to look, then battery, charging, etc.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #16 – February 08, 2011, 07:36:40 pm

Hey Matt,

Can you take a photo of that extra ground? It would be very helpful.
Thanks.
[/quote]

I doubt that mine is an extra. The difficult one went from a post on the side of the starter (with four other wires) to the top center of the crossmember at the front of the engine (rear of the coach). It is about finger-thick and attached to the top of the crossmember. There was just enough clearance to get the bolt and wire out. Were the bolt another 1/16" in length, it would have been captive.

I suspect a fresh battery would improve the situation, but I am surprised that my coach has such a small battery compared to what the rest of you have. This one is about a third the volume of an 8D, so I would suppose it to be about 1/3 the cranking power. The tray is not much larger than the battery, and it all looks stock to my untrained eye.

Matt B

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #17 – February 08, 2011, 07:56:33 pm

Quote from: George Stoltz – February 08, 2011, 07:27:33 pm

Quote from: Brad – February 08, 2011, 09:44:45 am
I then meet Dave M. at Extreme and he showed me where he added another ground from the engine batteries to the frame. My engine starts the best it every has after adding that ground and some of my flaky dash issues went away. James T. thought they were ground issues, but they still persisted after I cleaned the grounds. Adding the extra ground cured them.

Hey Matt,

Can you take a photo of that extra ground? It would be very helpful.
Thanks.

I think you mean Brad, not Matt. (Or Dave M., who helped Brad....)

Michelle

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #18 – February 08, 2011, 09:11:32 pm

Quote from: Brad – February 08, 2011, 09:44:45 am

Matt,
My coach never was spinning the starter very fast from the first day I purchased and I thought that was just the M11. All the batteries tested good and I cleaned all the connections which helped very little. I then meet Dave M. at Extreme and he showed me where he added another ground from the engine batteries to the frame. My engine starts the best it every has after adding that ground and some of my flaky dash issues went away. James T. thought they were ground issues, but they still persisted after I cleaned the grounds. Adding the extra ground cured them.

Brett would know if your model coach would benefit from the extra ground.

Thanks,

Hey Brad,

Can you take a photo of that extra ground? It would be very helpful.
Thanks

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #19 – February 08, 2011, 10:17:12 pm

Quote

Hey Brad,

Can you take a photo of that extra ground? It would be very helpful.

George,
If it does not sleet tomorrow I will take a picture and post. Sleeting in Central Texas is just not right. Where is global warming when you need it?

Thanks,

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #20 – February 08, 2011, 10:30:34 pm

A lot of good ideas here on the forum about extra ground cables and checking voltage before and during cranking.

When we bought our U300, we installed three Autozone Duralast 27 series batteries @ $80/each to replace the 3 original starting batteries. It spins like a top even down into the teens. On our fire trucks, also Detroits, we had an 8D on each side with a switch in the cab. We always started in the "both" position and got instant starts (on the first turn of the crank) in all temps. Even Ford pickups have a battery on each side for their diesels. A single 8D may be large enough to start most of the smaller diesels, but remember a low cell or just plain age can reduce the amperage available and along with it, cranking RPM.

Diesels start (and run) by compressing air anywhere from 16 to 21 times, depending on the brand. The principal that when a gas is compressed it produces heat is responsible for the ignition (explosion) of the diesel fuel when it is sprayed (injected) into the superheated air. If the engine turns over slowly on the starter, some of the compression (and heat) is lost past the piston rings resulting in lower temperatures for the fuel to try and ignite in. The magic number here is at least 410 F degrees (do the math between cold morning @20 degrees ambient and 410°). Anything lower than 410° and "no start", just white smoke.

Battery cables: excellent idea to make sure the chassis (frame) is well grounded as well as making sure the engine is ALSO well grounded. The starter needs clean non corroded surfaces where the positive cable connects. This goes for the cable also. Starters are usually very easy to get at. You may want to remove it and have it along with it's solenoid checked at your local auto electric shop. Never too many ground cables!

I would not become dependent on using the "boost" function to start the engine. In the case the house batteries are down, you would be SOL.

If you have any doubts, take your rig down to the local auto electric shop. This is their business. They can troubleshoot your whole electrical system and make sure your next trip is worry free or at least the feared first cold morning startup.

Good cranking,

Pierce & Gaylie
93' U300

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #21 – February 09, 2011, 01:08:36 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – February 08, 2011, 10:30:34 pm

Autozone Duralast 27 series batteries

are made by Interstate (Johnson Control Industries) for Autozone. Nice thing about them is that you can get them replaced almost anywhere. There are about 3 or 4 battery manufacturers in US.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #22 – February 09, 2011, 04:55:30 pm

an update on my progress:

Yesterday, I cleaned and tightened the ground wires with no change in symptom.

Today, I tested the battery with a smart charger - 13+ volts and 100 percent charge. Then I cleaned the hot connections at the starter (who said that it was easy to get to???) No change, engine won't turn over, and voltage drops to 11 volts at starter and at the battery when the start button is pushed. No significant difference in voltage at the two points. Engine crank moves, but not enough power to make it spin. Enough for today. The battery cable nuts froze to the rear bumper while I was working!! Thirty-two degrees and 30 MPH wind and freezing rain.

Tomorrow, if the weather permits, I will take a jumper cable and double the engine ground, as a quick double-check to see if it a ground problem.

oldMattB

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #23 – February 09, 2011, 05:40:15 pm

Strange: The following is the only battery I found with your code number.
You better go with an 8D
It should keep you happy.
Regards,

National Battery C62B Replacement Battery (C62B)

Model   Battery   Qty   Terminal   Volts   AH   L   W   H   Lbs
C62B   C62B   -   F1   6   3.5   5.28   1.34   2.56   1.37
This is a maintenance-free sealed lead-acid battery (SLA) with expected life between 3-5 years. The battery has no-spill design and is multi-functional for both cycle and standby use. It can be operated in any orientation. Commonly used for emergency lighting, UPS (Battery backup), fire alarm and security systems, lighting systems and many other applications. This replacement battery has a 1 year warranty and is guaranteed to meet or exceed OEM specifications and performance.

Re: starting battery, just battery, not batteries, just one single battery

Reply #24 – February 09, 2011, 05:48:25 pm

Matt,
Does your engine have a block heater? I will assume it does and that you've had the block heater on for at least a couple hours before cranking. If this is the case, I would hold the starter suspect (assuming the battery is a good one). I'm certain others with far more experience will add to the possibilities.

Also, remember that an appliance, motor, whatever, will be damaged if the voltage is low while attempting to operate it. This includes the starter. (if this coach has been operated with one battery for many start cycles...the starter could be damaged. You also shorten the alternator life by having it work hard to recharge a very low battery. An appliance (motor) will require a certain amout of power to operate...watts=power=amps x volts. The watts (power) is a constant requirement for the appliance (motor) to operate. If volts are low then the amps are increased to meet the wattage requirement. This increased amperage is usually what damages the appliances...causes fires (wires are spec'd for certain amperage, and the like.

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