A/C Power Distribution

Topic: A/C Power Distribution (Read 1418 times) previous topic - next topic

A/C Power Distribution

April 11, 2011, 12:01:29 pm

We were connected to a shore power-supply that experienced a problem. My "Surge-Guard" power monitor disconnected when the problem occurred, but since the incident it appears another breaker is tripped, as there is no 115v a/c power available anywhere in the coach. All the a/c breakers (I know about) have been re-set but the problem persisits. Is there another protection system I'm missing? Thanks!

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #1 – April 11, 2011, 12:20:18 pm

If your inverter/charger (Xantrex, etc) feeds power through to the main 115v outlets in the living room/kitchen, maybe it needs to be reset?
Roof AC units working? If so, that would indicate either the inverter/charger or a sub-panel still tripped.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #2 – April 11, 2011, 12:28:46 pm

The inverter provides 115v a/c normally and the charger works correctly. It appears just shore-power distribution is inop. I've reset all the main and sub breakers, on/under the bed-pedestal, to no avail.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #3 – April 11, 2011, 12:56:29 pm

Chad, Don't forget top check the GCFI in the bath, if its tripped all the 110 outlets will be inop.
This %$#^%*& GCFI is the source of a lot of 110 problems.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #4 – April 11, 2011, 12:59:13 pm

Are you getting power into the Surge Guard (lights on Surge Guard, or measure pedestal with a voltmeter)? Are you getting power out of the Surge Guard (measure with a voltmeter)? Is there power at the shore power cord at the end that plugs to the coach (measure with a voltmeter)?

Checking those spots may help isolate the problem. My questions are based on the way I use the Surge Guard. Mine plugs to the pedestal, and the shore power line plugs in to the Surge Guard. Your Surge Guard may be in a different place in the circuit.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #5 – April 11, 2011, 01:33:57 pm

My Surge-Guard is installed; there's a panel in the bedroom, the "device" is under the bed. When the pedestal failed (not sure of the failure mode) the surge guard tripped. As I've mentioned, none of the outlets work, nor the micro-wave/fridge/roof-air etc. It appears "all" shore-power a/c is down. However, as I mentioned, the outlets/microwave DO work on the inverter. I'm showing 115v on the a/c monitor panel, (next to the inverter - Heart Freedom 25 - panel) The bathroom GFI is not tripped. There MUST be another main a/c breaker - somewhere - that I haven't found.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #6 – April 11, 2011, 02:09:30 pm

Sounds like an ATS problem. Inverter leg is okay and the pedestal/genset leg is inoperative. Have you tried to run a/c on genset?

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #7 – April 11, 2011, 04:44:09 pm

As Dave Katsuki commented, did you reset the small round circuit breakers located on the side of your Freedom 25?

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #8 – April 11, 2011, 05:03:10 pm

Barry;
"No" - as the inverter appears to be working normally (provides a/c power to everything it connects to) I haven't done any trouble-shooting on it at all. With my problem-statement do you feel the inverter CB could be at-fault?

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #9 – April 11, 2011, 05:24:20 pm

I would take the time to go and check the circuit breakers on the inverter. It is very hard to tell if they are tripped or not at first glance.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #10 – April 11, 2011, 07:57:03 pm

UPDATE: I ran the Generator; it powers all three roof Air-conditioners, however the coach wall-outlets, microwave, TV/Stereo etc. all remain inoperative. From the wiring diagram the gen uses the same ATS (it appears to me) as does shore-power.

? "Curioser and curioser, said Alice".

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #11 – April 11, 2011, 08:10:31 pm

I had the same exact symptoms for a long time. I replaced the bath GFI, but that wasn't it. I replaced the ATS...all's good now. I used this one:
RV Powerhouse - A Powerful Selection of Quality RV and Marine Parts

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #12 – April 19, 2011, 07:51:51 pm

I'm still troubleshooting our shore-power not distributing throughout the coach. All the outlets are powered when using the inverter. On Shore-Power all three roof A/C's work, but the only outlet powered is the engine block-heat. The Shore-Power ATS relays are closing and don't appear pitted or burned at all. I've bypassed the GFI in the bathroom. Purchasing and installing a new ATS on the "chance" that's the problem seems an expensive shot in the dark, however I'm not sure where else to go from here. I appreciate the replies previously received; anyone electrically-gifted who has a fresh thought on this subject, is sincerely solicited.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #13 – April 19, 2011, 07:58:57 pm

Try tripping the GFI in bathroom and reset it.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #14 – April 19, 2011, 08:06:11 pm

I think I mentioned having bypassed it (hard-wired around it). Wish it was the GFI; easy fix.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #15 – April 19, 2011, 08:09:42 pm

Chad,
Chances are that if you have the original ATS, it's had a long run already. Sounds like the problem I had.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #16 – April 19, 2011, 08:20:57 pm

Quote from: Chad and Judy – April 19, 2011, 07:51:51 pm

I'm still troubleshooting our shore-power not distributing throughout the coach. All the outlets are powered when using the inverter. On Shore-Power all three roof A/C's work, but the only outlet powered is the engine block-heat. The Shore-Power ATS relays are closing and don't appear pitted or burned at all. I've bypassed the GFI in the bathroom. Purchasing and installing a new ATS on the "chance" that's the problem seems an expensive shot in the dark, however I'm not sure where else to go from here. I appreciate the replies previously received; anyone electrically-gifted who has a fresh thought on this subject, is sincerely solicited.

Chad,
You have a bad Transfer switch relay.
Your power IS good on the inverter which shows that one relay in the transfer switch is working.
You do NOT have power thru the other relay in the transfer switch when on shore power.
If you remove the relay & take it to an electrical supply house they can match it up for you for a lot less than replacing the whole transfer switch.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #17 – April 19, 2011, 08:24:59 pm

It's original, and that does make it a little easier to spend the money. I just don't like throwing parts at a problem until everything else possible has been tried. And, as an electrician I'd make a great gardener, so it's reasonable I may have overlooked something.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #18 – April 19, 2011, 08:35:10 pm

Thanks, Barry; The bothersome ATS serves the "generator & shore" - on my coach anyway. The inverter is a separate ATS-100. I've cycled external power with the ATS box open, and all three contactors "snap" closed and, as I said, no sign of pitting or burning as shown in the pictures on several troubleshooting guides. The ATS-100 (as you obviously know) has a single plastic frame that holds all three contactor assemblies for each circuit. That relay looks pretty "specific" but perhaps taking a drive to the "big-city" and trolling some electrical supply houses is worth a try. I'd rather shop it on-line, (as town is a fur-piece away) but that ATS is no longer produced so finding a cross-reference number is unlikely.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #19 – April 19, 2011, 09:17:47 pm

Quote from: Chad and Judy

Thanks, Barry; The bothersome ATS serves the "generator & shore" - on my coach anyway. The inverter is a separate ATS-100. I've cycled external power with the ATS box open, and all three contactors "snap" closed and, as I said, no sign of pitting or burning as shown in the pictures on several troubleshooting guides. The ATS-100 (as you obviously know) has a single plastic frame that holds all three contactor assemblies for each circuit. That relay looks pretty "specific" but perhaps taking a drive to the "big-city" and trolling some electrical supply houses is worth a try. I'd rather shop it on-line, (as town is a fur-piece away) but that ATS is no longer produced so finding a cross-reference number is unlikely.

Chad & Judy - '98 U320
Wickenburg, AZ

My friend replaced his relay on his ATS-100. Got it from an electric supply house.
Replacing a Transfer Relay

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #20 – April 19, 2011, 10:24:55 pm

I think you have two similar transfer switches, probably both ATS-100. One switches shore cable / generator to main electrical panel 50 amp breaker. Another switches inverter / main panel to inverter sub-panel. ATS's may be stacked.

Since you have removed transfer switch covers, your next job is to use a digital meter to measure voltages at each point to see where it is and where it is not.

I recommend a paper drawing that shows the sequence of electrical flows so that you can follow the 'paths' and check off successful measurements.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #21 – April 20, 2011, 09:00:35 am

Quote from: Barry Beam – April 19, 2011, 09:17:47 pm

My friend replaced his relay on his ATS-100. Got it from an electric supply house.
Replacing a Transfer Relay

Barry;
THANKS! Your link shows the New transfer relay to be a FURNAS 49MD109141, which is a great help; I appreciate the information! I noticed the pictures (as with another I found, thou a different ATS) show quite visible damage to the failed switches. As I've said, mine show no evidence of heat or arching, which is why I've been flogging the possibility of something else being the fault.

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #22 – April 20, 2011, 06:00:57 pm

Barry is right, use a good quality (properly insulated) volt meter and work through the wiring schematics.
Good luck

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #23 – April 21, 2011, 08:25:36 pm

Barry / Barry;
I'd like to run my final thoughts on my power-distribution problem past you - you're previous responses suggest you're both electrically savvy and writing things out sometimes helps me see things I might otherwise miss.

I'll apologize in advance for repeating myself.

1) The Inverter is getting power - which suggests to me the shore-power side of the #1 relay is functional as the inverter is powered by the 30-amp circuit from the Main Circuit Breaker Box. (On my coach, shore power is delivered though a "built-in" Surge-Guard.)

2) As previously stated, the inverter provides a/c power to "everything" - also verifying the #1 shore-power relay is good.

3) Both the Gen and Shore provide power to all three air-conditioners, suggesting both Shore and Gen on the #1 relay are good. However, neither Gen nor Shore provide 110v to anything else.

4) The index on the Main Panel shows circuits for the Sub-Panel, Washer, Fridge, Inverter, Aqua-Hot, Power-Watch and the three Air-Conditioners. Everything off the Main Panel appears normal on shore-power, EXCEPT the Dometic Fridge. The Sub-Panel index shows all devices/components connected to 110v-duplex "wall-outlets".

5) The above symptoms suggest to me, in descending order of likelihood, a failure of a) the "Primary Power Source" side of the #2 ATS b) the breaker from the Main Panel to the Sub-Panel, or c) the GFI, however I bypassed the GFI (directly connected the wires); no change.

6) AGAIN, the Fridge does NOT work on shore-power, but DOES work on the inverter, casting a small element of doubt on a) above, unless the wiring of the fridge is not as indicated, or there are at least two independent failures here.

A well-meaning neighbor "borrowed" my multi-meter, then left town for a month. I haven't purchased/borrowed one to measure voltages, but ... as I said, it sure appears by process of elimination that the fault is related to 2 ATS, (excepting the fridge issue), the sub-panel or GFI circuit. Finally, as ATS #2 is almost totally inaccessible beneath #1, Murphy's Law suggests that's the issue.

"The last time, with my last dime" as they say..... comments MOST welcome!

Thanks again!

Re: A/C Power Distribution

Reply #24 – April 21, 2011, 09:50:29 pm

Quote from: Chad and Judy – April 21, 2011, 08:25:36 pm

Barry / Barry;
I'd like to run my final thoughts on my power-distribution problem past you - you're previous responses suggest you're both electrically savvy and writing things out sometimes helps me see things I might otherwise miss.

I'll apologize in advance for repeating myself.

1) The Inverter is getting power - which suggests to me the shore-power side of the #1 relay is functional as the inverter is powered by the 30-amp circuit from the Main Circuit Breaker Box. (On my coach, shore power is delivered though a "built-in" Surge-Guard.)

2) As previously stated, the inverter provides a/c power to "everything" - also verifying the #1 shore-power relay is good.

3) Both the Gen and Shore provide power to all three air-conditioners, suggesting both Shore and Gen on the #1 relay are good. However, neither Gen nor Shore provide 110v to anything else.

4) The index on the Main Panel shows circuits for the Sub-Panel, Washer, Fridge, Inverter, Aqua-Hot, Power-Watch and the three Air-Conditioners. Everything off the Main Panel appears normal on shore-power, EXCEPT the Dometic Fridge. The Sub-Panel index shows all devices/components connected to 110v-duplex "wall-outlets".

5) The above symptoms suggest to me, in descending order of likelihood, a failure of a) the "Primary Power Source" side of the #2 ATS b) the breaker from the Main Panel to the Sub-Panel, or c) the GFI, however I bypassed the GFI (directly connected the wires); no change.

6) AGAIN, the Fridge does NOT work on shore-power, but DOES work on the inverter, casting a small element of doubt on a) above, unless the wiring of the fridge is not as indicated, or there are at least two independent failures here.

A well-meaning neighbor "borrowed" my multi-meter, then left town for a month. I haven't purchased/borrowed one to measure voltages, but ... as I said, it sure appears by process of elimination that the fault is related to 2 ATS, (excepting the fridge issue), the sub-panel or GFI circuit. Finally, as ATS #2 is almost totally inaccessible beneath #1, Murphy's Law suggests that's the issue.

"The last time, with my last dime" as they say..... comments MOST welcome!

Thanks again!

It sounds like you have the refrigerator plugged into the wrong outlet behind it.
Usually there is a duplex outlet (one is on the inverter & one is not)
Try switching the plug to the other side of the duplex & the refer should work on shore power.
Now that would make this scenario below still the problem.

Quote

The above symptoms suggest to me, in descending order of likelihood, a failure of a) the "Primary Power Source" side of the #2 ATS b) the breaker from the Main Panel to the Sub-Panel,

Without a meter or some voltage checking device, it will be difficult to troubleshoot any further.
You need to be able to see where the flow of 110vac stops, the breaker or the ATS relay.
My guess is still the ATS relay.
You can try reversing 2 breakers & see if that makes a difference to rule out the breaker.

Affiliate Notice