House Battery Questions

Topic: House Battery Questions - Help!! (Read 1699 times) previous topic - next topic

House Battery Questions - Help!!

April 22, 2011, 02:56:40 pm

We have Lead and acid/water batteries for our house batteries. I do not know the size, but they are large.

We brought the coach home earlier this week and I presumed the coach house batteries were down some due to trying to start the genset earlier this winter and was not able to get it to start. I had a 30A RV circuit installed in the garage so I can connect the MH to shore power here at the house.

I plugged it into the RV plug, turned the house breaker and the coach MAIN breaker to the ON position and let it start charging the coach house batteries while doing other project work. I left it plugged in 3 or so hours Wednesday evening/night then disconnected everything for the night. Then Thursday morning I plugged it back in and turned ON the two breakers (RV circuit breaker and coach MAIN breaker). I let it start charging again.

Later in the day Thursday, I was on the drivers side of the coach and saw a small amount of water was running down the driveway. It was coming from a joint in the coach close to the wall in back of the fuel tank/propane tank compartment. I opened the bin door to the house battery compartment and water was on the back part of the floor, there was a small amount of water on the wall of the front two batteries. The batteries sounded like they were boiling and I smelled a faint smell. I disconnected everything again.

On Friday morning, 4/22 at 9:00 am I plugged the coach back into the RV circuit and turned the RV circuit breaker and the coach MAIN breaker ON. I checked the remote display panel for the HEART Interface - Freedom inverter/charger on our coach. (The switch is turned OFF on the HEART Interface - Freedom inverter/charger unit in the bay.) The remote panel read the following:
DC Volts - 12.5 and was a solid indictor at this level; DC Amps - 90.

I checked the DIP switches on the back of the HEART Interface Remote Panel and all switches were in the OFF position EXCEPT for switches 2 and 3. After looking at the manual, it looked like these two switches (2 and 3) should be in the OFF position for lead acid/water batteries. So I moved DIP switches 2 and 3 to the OFF position. Now, all DIP switches are in the OFF position. The HEART Interface Remote Panel was reading the following at 11:15 am:
14.0 DC Volts; 90 DC Amps.

In early afternoon (around 1:00 pm or so), I checked the outside of the coach and saw a very small damp spot on the driveway. Again, I found a small amount of water on the battery bay floor and some moisture on the cases of the two front batteries.

Question:
1. Do I have the DIP switches set properly for the lead acid/water house batteries?
2. How do I know if the problem is with the batteries or the charger over charging the batteries?
3. Could this be due to me adding too much water last fall? I did have to add water to each of the cells, but could not see the water level very well as they were primarly still in the bay when I pulled the carrier out as far as I could get it.
4. I presume I need to flush the floor and etc where the water from the batteries has gone to neutralize the acid solution. Is this correct?

Keep in mind, I am very limited on my electrical troubleshooting. I can do basics and have the CRAFTSMAN clamp on meter, but I am no electrician nor expert.

If I do have to replace the batteries, what are good sources for them? Keep in mind, these batteries are normal battery width, but go back fairly deeply in the bay. I believe there are 3 sets of cells where water level has to be checked.

I have not tried to start the genset yet as I want to replace the 1-2 feet of hose where it makes the bend to go into the genset fuel pump. The existing hose is cracked fairly badly and last winter I was getting white exhaust when I tried to start the genset. So I presume I am getting air in the hose due to leaks in these cracks. So I do not know how the batteries will spin the genset diesel now.

Your expertise is greatly needed. Thank you.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #1 – April 22, 2011, 04:10:57 pm

Morris,
Definitely flush the "water", aka battery acid off your drive. How old are your batteries?
Have you checked the fluid level in your batteries after the boiling over yesterday? Also, have you checked the specific gravity (SG) of each cell? Inexpensive testers will show (sometimes) what the stautus of each cell is. Be sure to test them before you add any DISTILLED water. Try not to add water above the indicator mark in each cell.

Before you consider replacing them (if they are 4 years or older), get them load-tested by a local battery dealer.

I inherited a couple 8D lead-acid house batteries when I bought the coach, kept adding water as they boiled over consistently. I didn't know any better, as I had never had a coach or 8D's before. Within the year, they both died, and I replaced them. I have never had a battery boil over since. I think, when they get close to the end of their battery life, they tend to boil over more frequently.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #2 – April 22, 2011, 04:11:44 pm

The first thing I would do is hose out your battery compartment with your garden hose with a nozzle. Hopefully you didn't have a river of battery acid going down the drive. If you are careful you could use some baking soda to neutralize the acid (don't get any inside the battery) and prevent corrosion.

Not sure what coach you have as it is not included in your signature and you are not sure of what batteries you have for coach batteries, so,

I suggest that you provide us with the measurements (L,W,H) of the batteries so we know what you have for capacity.

Then, I would check the electrolyte level in all of the cells and determine if any are down further than the rest. Record your findings individually. Fill the cells to the proper level with distilled water.

If you can, I would mark all of your battery connections and color code + and - for easy re-installation. I would disconnect all batteries except one and then allow the inverter to charge that single battery, or else charge it with an external charger. Use your volt meter to determine the charging voltage at different times and it should not exceed 14.6

Sounds like you have the manual for the Heart Interface so your setting should be good.

When the charger indicates that the battery is charged, disconnect it and hook up another battery and do the same until all batteries have been charged fully. Monitor your charging activity for boiling sounds and excessive fumes. If a particular battery is not performing correctly disconnect it and leave it for further testing.

After all charging has been completed, wait, with all batteries disconnected for 12-24 hours and then, test all of the charged batteries with your battery hydrometer and see if all cells are similar and at 1.265 or so.

Check this out... Battery Tutorial

It is possible that you have a shorted battery and that could be causing your problems.
You could take one or all of your batteries to a competent battery tester for load testing.

It is possible that your coach batteries were down to 10 volts or lower and if so, would have required a lot of charging to bring them back to full charge. When you get the battery problem figured out, be sure to check and verify that your engine alternator is working correctly. The heavy charging load from storage to home probably really beat up the alternator. How far was it?

Regarding replacement batteries, it will depend on your typical usage. If only occasional boondocking use the flooded are probably fine if you watch your usage and VOLTAGE and don't drop it down below 12.2 volts. If you are plugged in whenever you are parked you should have no problem with flooded batteries as long as they are properly maintained.
If you are going to boondock a lot then I would go with solar and gels.

Good luck on your project.....

Regards,

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #3 – April 22, 2011, 04:54:40 pm

Morris, Interstate battery is on 36th near Robinson behind the theater. If you can get your batteries out of the coach, I would take them to Interstate and have them checked. Its would be very difficult to get the coach in their parking lot and back out. If they don't find any problems with the batteries then it is probably your inverter/charger.

Of course you could also take it to Floyd's RV in Goldsby and let them do all of the work. I probably wouldn't buy my batteries from Floyd's but they are better equipped to handle 170 lb. batteries and they would be equipped to check out your inverter/charger.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #4 – April 22, 2011, 05:22:40 pm

RE Don Hay's . "I think, when they get close to the end of their battery life, they tend to boil over more frequently"

Don is correct. . . All wet cell batteries, even new ones, will boil off their acid solution if the charge voltage is too high. That is why we need to control charge voltages. And as batteries age the voltage that the solution boils reduces. Wet batteries are near end of life when they boil at or below normal charge voltages.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #5 – April 24, 2011, 09:46:46 pm

Quote from: Don Hay – April 22, 2011, 04:10:57 pm

Morris,
How old are your batteries? I do not know as we bought the coach last fall. I believe she (her husband died spring/early summer of 2010) said they were fairly old.

Have you checked the fluid level in your batteries after the boiling over yesterday? No, not yet. I will try to check sometime this week.

Also, have you checked the specific gravity (SG) of each cell? Inexpensive testers will show (sometimes) what the stautus of each cell is. Be sure to test them before you add any DISTILLED water. Try not to add water above the indicator mark in each cell. Again, I will try to do it this week sometime.

Before you consider replacing them (if they are 4 years or older), get them load-tested by a local battery dealer. I will have to locate someone to do this.

I inherited a couple 8D lead-acid house batteries when I bought the coach, kept adding water as they boiled over consistently. I didn't know any better, as I had never had a coach or 8D's before. Within the year, they both died, and I replaced them. I have never had a battery boil over since. I think, when they get close to the end of their battery life, they tend to boil over more frequently.

I am guessing they may be fairly old. But no way to know for sure.

Quote from: Jon Twork – April 22, 2011, 04:11:44 pm

Not sure what coach you have as it is not included in your signature Our coach is a 1997 U270

I suggest that you provide us with the measurements (L,W,H) of the batteries so we know what you have for capacity. I will get the measurement Monday or Tuesday.

Sounds like you have the manual for the Heart Interface so your setting should be good. I have the FREEDOM 20 INVERTER/BATTERY CHARGER manual. That is where I got the DIP switch settings.

When you get the battery problem figured out, be sure to check and verify that your engine alternator is working correctly. The heavy charging load from storage to home probably really beat up the alternator. How far was it? I believe it is around 30-40 miles from storage to home. However, we drove the coach about 60-70 miles two times during the winter to exercise it. So we have driven about 150-200 miles since we put it in storage last fall. How do I know if the alternator has been damaged?

Regarding replacement batteries, it will depend on your typical usage. If only occasional boondocking use the flooded are probably fine if you watch your usage and VOLTAGE and don't drop it down below 12.2 volts. If you are plugged in whenever you are parked you should have no problem with flooded batteries as long as they are properly maintained.
If you are going to boondock a lot then I would go with solar and gels. I doubt if we will boondock a significant amount of time. However, with the battery rack pulled as far out as I can get it, I cannot easily access see in the cells after removing the caps. Consequently, I don't have an easy way to know how full I am getting the cell when I add water.

If I do have to replace the batteries and get the gel batteries, I understand I need to set the FREEDOM 20 INVERTER/CHARGER DIP switches correctly for the gel batteries. Do I need to do anything other than setting the DIP switches for the warm gel cell or cool gel cell? Will the alternator safely handle charging the gel batteries when running the engine?

Quote from: Kent Speers – April 22, 2011, 04:54:40 pm

Morris, Interstate battery is on 36th near Robinson behind the theater. If you can get your batteries out of the coach, I would take them to Interstate and have them checked. Its would be very difficult to get the coach in their parking lot and back out. If they don't find any problems with the batteries then it is probably your inverter/charger. I have no way to get the existing batteries out of the coach. I will have to go to some shop where they can handle the heavy batteries.

:Also, what do I need to do to prevent any further damage to the alternator when I have to drive the coach to a battery shop?

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – April 22, 2011, 05:22:40 pm

Don is correct. . . All wet cell batteries, even new ones, will boil off their acid solution if the charge voltage is too high. That is why we need to control charge voltages. And as batteries age the voltage that the solution boils reduces. Wet batteries are near end of life when they boil at or below normal charge voltages.

Other than the jumper settings in the FREEDOM 20 INVERTER/BATTERY CHARGER manual, what else needs to be done to control the charge voltages properly?

As you can see, I have very little background/knowledge in this area. Unfortunately, we have had to do some projects on our house so I haven't been able to focus much on our coach yet. I did get the Progressive Industries 50A EMS installed late last week.

I do greatly appreciate everyone's help...just bear with me as I need a lot of very basic help in this arena.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #6 – April 24, 2011, 10:50:11 pm

Quote

Morris wrote: "However, with the battery rack pulled as far out as I can get it, I cannot easily access see in the cells after removing the caps. Consequently, I don't have an easy way to know how full I am getting the cell when I add water."

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #7 – April 25, 2011, 10:00:41 am

Morris,
You don't need the house batteries to drive the coach to the battery shop. You can opt to disconnect the ground cable from the batteries for this drive. this way the batteries will not draw any current from the alternator.

What I do when taking the coach from storage is run the genset for about an hour with the boost switch engaged and the engine block heater on. I test the current at the batteries just after starting the genset and also just before engaging the engine starter. I don't recall the alternator spec as to amperage, but you want to be well below that max output at the batteries before starting.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #8 – April 25, 2011, 02:07:41 pm

Quote from: Peter & Beth – April 25, 2011, 10:00:41 am

Morris,
You don't need the house batteries to drive the coach to the battery shop. You can opt to disconnect the ground cable from the batteries for this drive. this way the batteries will not draw any current from the alternator.

Thank you. I will disconnect the cable from the negative terminals before I start the coach again.

Quote

What I do when taking the coach from storage is run the genset for about an hour with the boost switch engaged and the engine block heater on. I test the current at the batteries just after starting the genset and also just before engaging the engine starter. I don't recall the alternator spec as to amperage, but you want to be well below that max output at the batteries before starting.

So am I understanding it correctly, that with the negative battery cables reconnected and the coach running, I can check the current at the (+) coach battery terminals and compare it to the alternator maximum amperage. As long as the current at the (+) battery terminals is less than the alternator maximum amperage, the alternator is OK. Is this the correct way to determine if the alternator is OK or if it has been damaged? If this is NOT the correct way to check the alternator condition, how should I check it? Thank you.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #9 – April 25, 2011, 02:23:47 pm

Morris,
I'm not qualified to answer your question in connection with the alternator output maximum rating and the charge demanded by the battery banks when in discharged mode (or damaged). There have been posts here along those lines insofar as there is an adjustment that can be made to the alternator output voltage (ref. gel, agm & wet cell batteries). The alternator rated amperage does not change, however.

For your current situation, just disconnect the negative terminal to the house battery bank. In the future, with a good set of batteries, you can measure the current draw at the positive (or negative) battery cable with the electrical meter such as this one:
Extech Instruments - Unknown Product

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #10 – April 25, 2011, 02:33:38 pm

Just to add: the rating for the Leece-Neville alternator in the 97 U270 is 130 amp. I do not know what amp draw would be with fully discharged or damaged battery bank(s). To be safe, disconnect them. Don't fry your alternator.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #11 – April 25, 2011, 03:16:01 pm

To clarify, do NOT run your engine/alternator with no battery connected-- it will blow the diodes. But, indeed running it max output because of deeply discharged batteries or bad batteries will make the alternator run hotter and materially shorten its life.

One other point-- it is a LOT cheaper to take your alternator in for a Preventive Maintenance Service (bearings and brushes) than to wait for it to freeze up and have to buy a new one. In fact I just took our alternator (a 190 amp Hehr Powerline) in today to Pearland Alternator for a rebuild as preventive maintenance. And of course you can do it at YOUR schedule, not when it decides to break.

Brett

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #12 – April 25, 2011, 03:21:12 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – April 25, 2011, 03:16:01 pm

To clarify, do NOT run your engine/alternator with no battery connected-- it will blow the diodes. But, indeed running it max output because of deeply discharged batteries or bad batteries will make the alternator run hotter and materially shorten its life.

One other point-- it is a LOT cheaper to take your alternator in for a Preventive Maintenance Service (bearings and brushes) than to wait for it to freeze up and have to buy a new one. In fact I just took our alternator (a 190 amp Hehr Powerline) in today to Pearland Alternator for a rebuild as preventive maintenance. And of course you can do it at YOUR schedule, not when it decides to break.

Brett

Brett,
I need educating on this one. Is the diode you're refering to the isolator diode? I was addressing the house battery bank, not the start battery bank. Is your advice the same for the house battery through an isolator?

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #13 – April 25, 2011, 03:53:46 pm

The diodes that can fail are in the alternator-- an alternator feeding an open circuit (i.e. no battery) causes the alternator diodes to fail.

As long as there is a battery hooked up to the alternator, no problem. So start battery alone is OK. I just didn't want anyone to take it a "step further" and think that they could run an alternator with no battery in the circuit.

Brett

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #14 – April 25, 2011, 04:09:00 pm

Thank you Brett for clarifying the battery issue. I want to clarify that the engine start battery is needed to be hooked-up while driving the coach as it supplies 12 volt power to all the systems needed to operate the coach from the Allison transmission to the running lights, turn signals, etc. Also, I was addressing Morris' U270 which I am familiar with. I do not know if the more advanced coaches such as the U280, U300, U295, U320 and newer versions Phenix & Nimbus also need to have the coach batteries hooked up and available while driving. So please refer to your wiring diagrams for more detailed distribution of the 12 volt system.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #15 – April 25, 2011, 06:08:13 pm

Quote

Morris wrote: "However, with the battery rack pulled as far out as I can get it, I cannot easily access see in the cells after removing the caps. Consequently, I don't have an easy way to know how full I am getting the cell when I add water."

Morris: I use a small (2"X4") mirror that I tilt at an angle, then use a flashlight to reflect down into the cell. It allows me to see the electrolyte level. You have to work on the angle to get the best view, but it works.

I cut a stick 1/8" thick, about 5" long out of hardwood. notched it at 1" and 1/2' = 1" to much(?) and less than 1/2" to little. wipe with throw-a-way rag, keep in battery compartment

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #16 – April 25, 2011, 07:49:04 pm

First of all, I want to thank everyone for your assistance. I greatly appreciate all the assistance. I am hoping that so far, we have not done significant damage to the alternator due to the temperatures when when we drove the coach plus we did not drive it for extended time periods. So hopefully we are OK in respect to the alternator.

Secondly, I have now disconnected the cables from the two negative terminals on the house batteries. I had to pull the rack out to be able to disconnect one of the cables and I found the following information:

approx. 19.5" long x approx 11" wide at widest point x approx. 8" high not counting the terminal post heights.

Both batteries are Interstate 8D-MHD Workaholic, 1400 cca batteries. It looked like one of them has a date of June 2003 stamped on the label. I did not see any date stamped on the second battery. So I am guessing they were installed in June, 2003. If that is the case, I would presume they both have lived their lives. Do you agree?

If I purchase gel batteries, do I need to make any set up changes other than the DIP switches 2&3 for the FREEDOM 20 INVERTER/BATTERY CHARGER? If other set up changes are required, what are they?

Again, THANK YOU so very much for all your input.

Morris

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #17 – April 25, 2011, 08:18:06 pm

Morris,
Below is the manual for the Heart Freedom unit. This will tell you the set up for whichever battery you buy. Set the dip switches in the Inverter/Charger for the main house battery type (Gel, AGM or wet cell), not the engine start battery type.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #18 – April 26, 2011, 12:54:26 am

Quote from: Peter & Beth – April 25, 2011, 08:18:06 pm

Morris,
Below is the manual for the Heart Freedom unit. This will tell you the set up for whichever battery you buy. Set the dip switches in the Inverter/Charger for the main house battery type (Gel, AGM or wet cell), not the engine start battery type.

Thank you very much.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #19 – April 26, 2011, 11:11:33 am

I called some local battery stores this morning and found the following:

Interstate (same battery we currently have) $216.95 w/e Made by JCI
Continental (1400 CCA, sounds like same battery we have) $146.95 w/e Made by JCI
Crown (I understand around 1300 CCA) $140.00 w/e Made by Crown

Does anyone have any experience with the Continental or the Crown batteries and any knowledge of how they compare to the Interstate 8D-MHD battery? It sounds to me like the Continental and the Interstate batteries are probably the very same battery and the guy at the shop withthe Continental said they are the very same battery.

Thank you very much.

Morris

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #20 – April 26, 2011, 11:46:48 am

Morris,

We have used Interstate 8Ds AGM build since July of 2009 for the coach (not engine). So far, not a single issue with them in 22 months. I assume your prices are for lead acid and not AGMs.

We full-time so batteries get a workout.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #21 – April 26, 2011, 12:07:55 pm

Quote from: George Stoltz – April 26, 2011, 11:46:48 am

Morris,

We have used Interstate 8Ds AGM build since July of 2009 for the coach (not engine). So far, not a single issue with them in 22 months. I assume your prices are for lead acid and not AGMs.

We full-time so batteries get a workout.

Yes, the prices I listed are for the flooded lead acid batteries. So far, none of the stores I have talked with have the AGMs in stock and the AGM pricing I have found so far is $460-$650. In all cases, the comments are the extra life of the AGMs will not pay for the additional cost.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #22 – April 26, 2011, 12:40:26 pm

Quote

Morris quote: "Does anyone have any experience with the Continental or the Crown batteries?"

Morris,
I used Continental 8D's for the chassis and house batteries for several years. The local battery warehouse across the highway from the Foretravel factory sells Continentals as well as the MK 8D gels. I have been averaging about 31/2 - 4 years before having to replace them. I use a Trik-L-Start to maintain the chassis battery and 50 amp shore power to keep the house batteries up. I let the young fellows at the batter shop remove the old and install the new batteries. Too much for my old back to handle.

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #23 – April 26, 2011, 09:26:38 pm

Quote from: Don Hay – April 26, 2011, 12:40:26 pm

Quote
Morris quote: "Does anyone have any experience with the Continental or the Crown batteries?"
Morris,
I used Continental 8D's for the chassis and house batteries for several years. The local battery warehouse across the highway from the Foretravel factory sells Continentals as well as the MK 8D gels. I have been averaging about 31/2 - 4 years before having to replace them. I use a Trik-L-Start to maintain the chassis battery and 50 amp shore power to keep the house batteries up. I let the young fellows at the batter shop remove the old and install the new batteries. Too much for my old back to handle.

Thank you very much. I took the coach to the Continental battery shop this afternoon so they could load test the 2 batteries. They told me that a cell was bad in one of the batteries (the one with the June, 2003 date stamp) and probably that had drawn down the other one. I purchased 2 of the Continental 8Ds this afternoon. Then I had to locate 2 sets of the battery terminal connectors as all 4 were in bad shape. That was a exercise as they are military spec connectors and most places do not carry them....but luckily NAPA had them....but were VERY PROUD of them.

I do have another question. In the FREEDOM 20 INVERTER/CHARGER manual (page 13), the DIP switch settings are provided. There is a Warm Wet Cell (>80 degrees F) DIP switch setting and a Cool Wet Cell (<80 degrees F) DIP switch setting. How do I know which to use? (Switch 2 if ON for Warm Wet Cell and Switch 2 is OFF for Cool Wet Cell.)

Thank you very much!!!

Morris

Re: House Battery Questions - Help!!

Reply #24 – May 01, 2011, 07:19:35 pm

Quote from: Bill Chaplin – April 25, 2011, 06:08:13 pm

I cut a stick 1/8" thick, about 5" long out of hardwood. notched it at 1" and 1/2' = 1" to much(?) and less than 1/2" to little. wipe with throw-a-way rag, keep in battery compartment

Bill, If I understand your comment correctly, you insert the end with the 2 notches in each battery cell. If the water level is at the 1/2" level or lower, you know you need to add water. If the water level is at the 1" level, you know you do NOT need to add water and if it is between the two marks, you may or may not add water.

Am I correct?

Do you insert the hardwood piece until the end contacts the lead plates for the 1/2" and 1" marks provide proper indication of battery water level?

Thank you very much.

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