turbo charger the mechanic said

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turbo charger the mechanic said

May 23, 2011, 01:48:40 am

setting here in brookfield Ga. with engine running and when I turned off key, motor kept running. It idled from 830 til 1100 pm and noone new how to tell me to stop it , called good sams, called 911 just like good sam's said to, cause they would not send someone to stall it till fire truck came out and said it was safe. sheriff came out at about 930 and stayed til a friend of his came out that knew how to stop it, but just before he got there the firetruck came and suggested we take engine battery cable loose. That worked. When the sheriffs friend arrived he said it was the turbo and his shop in tifton could fix it for around 1500 dollars. The engine was low in oil after that and he said the bad turbo sucks oil out and burns it. Does any one have experience on this. Oh ,by the way I did get my other issue finished with the broken panrod on the last trip. 1994 230 cummins 5.9b U225 grand villa Thanks in advance tommytstrat@yahoo.com tommy thompson

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #1 – May 23, 2011, 02:32:33 am

Tommy,

While it is possible for a diesel to continue running on motor oil sucked up by a bad turbo oil seal, it is much more common for the fuel shutoff solenoid or its circuitry to malfunction. Check that out before concluding that the turbo is blown.

Brett

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #2 – May 23, 2011, 06:09:45 am

Everyone with a 5.9 should know where the connector is for the fuel stop solenoid. It's very easy to stop this engine. Also, if the coach has been in storage for more than 3 months, Cummins suggests unplugging this connector and cranking for 15 seconds to build up oil pressure before starting.

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #3 – May 23, 2011, 07:53:12 am

This morning cummins engine is not that low in oil, and I wondered what the noise was I heard last night while it idled . I am trying to make last minute judgements where I won't be misled at the shop I take it to. Can the torbo charger make a lot of noise when it goes out, or is my engine possibly scarred up. Thanks ,tommy thompson

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #4 – May 23, 2011, 08:15:26 am

Tommy, Will the engine restart this AM ? As a check I would do this : Disconnect the fuel solenoid and crank engine listening for any bad sounding noises, It should not start, then connect solenoid and crank. It should start,when it does then disconnect solenoid to see if it will stop. I am with Brett, probably a bad solenoid or a wiring issue that keeps solenoid from closing.
I agree that everyone should know how to disconnect the fuel stop solenoid so that you can stop an engine in an emergency.

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #5 – May 23, 2011, 08:19:18 am

So just where do I look when I get to the coach for my fuel stop solenoid? I have the 5.9 Cummins with turbo as well, and like Gary's suggestion about knowing how to stop in an emergency.

Coach and books are in storage 20 miles away, and I have not had my coffee yet either.

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #6 – May 23, 2011, 08:43:47 am

Tommy, I believe that the 5.9 is similar to the 8.3 that I have.
Look at the rear of the fuel injector pump ( it has six lines running to the head ), you should see a wiring harness connected to a ( probably ) round electric device. This is the solenoid. When you start the engine by turning on the key a circuit opens the solenoid and allows fuel to flow to the injector pump, and when you turn the key off ( or disconnect the wiring ) the solenoid closes and fuel flow stops. You have missed an exciting event if you have never seen a diesel engine run away. The noise is terrific as it winds up against the Governor and stays there til either the fuel or air is shut off OR it shakes itself to pieces. Quite a show and I hope no one here ever gets to see it.
PS It is just as important to know how to stop your generator also.

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #7 – May 23, 2011, 08:46:23 am

94-98 5.9L DODGE DIESEL CUMMINS FUEL SHUT OFF Solenoid | eBay
Tommy, Heres a picture.

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #8 – May 23, 2011, 09:55:31 am

This isn't your engine and its not a very good photo, but hope it helps. The fuel shutoff solenoid is to the left middle of the picture near the rusty looking pipe (transmission dip stick tube). Round and painted black, the wire connector is just to the left of the black intake elbow on top of the intake manifold.

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #9 – May 23, 2011, 09:58:13 am

Just a note on the turbo charger, if the turbo was the reason it would not stop, you are in for a massive problem $$$$$ If there is enough oil going thru the turbo seals or oil going past the piston rings, one of two things will happen.
First it most likely will run away/overspeed and stuff a piston thru the block wall or run the engine out of oil and lockup, either way is not good Meaning dead and lots $$$$.
Pray it is only a solenoid not releasing.
Cheers

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #10 – May 23, 2011, 10:45:50 am

Dave,

Along your same line of thought (which I agree with), it would be very unlikely IMO for the amount of oil sucked by a turbo seal to be just the right amount for the engine to continue to run AT IDLE. As several have pointed out, if crankcase oil is the "fuel source", engine RPM will be dictated by the amount of oil-- and it can often be enough to overspeed the engine. The fuel injection governor can NOT control RPM, as it is not fuel that is "fueling" the engine.

I remember some of the older DD 2 strokes had an emergency air supply cutoff, as shutting off either air or fuel will stop the motor.

BTW, that is the other way to stop any engine, gasoline or diesel-- Stuff something in the air filter intake to stop air flow to the engine. Be sure it is large enough that it can not be sucked into the engine!

Brett

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #11 – May 23, 2011, 10:48:19 am

Tommy,

Hopefully not the turbo. Lots of good advise above. Hate to replace the turbo and find it was not the seal. Looked at a cab forward Mack (VW) with a 8.3 Cummins that had a seal failure. Burned a nice hole in one piston and some crown damage on another.

Summer is finally here so good to remember to idle the engine before shutting down after pulling hard, especially at the top of long grades. The heat from a hot engine and turbo will soak into the turbo causing the oil to form a carbon coating on the turbo bearings called "coke" (not the kind you can sell). With the turbo mounted on top like my 6V-92TA, this is even more important. If the bearings fail, the stationary turbo will cause a partial blockage of air to the engine resulting in very high temperatures and piston failure. Naturally, seal failure and oil into the intake system will also do a nasty job. Engine manufactures recommend a cooling idle for all turbo engines. This idle period can be from one minute in moderate driving up to FIFTEEN minutes for a hot engine (this means hot oil) after a long pull. The oil in a hot engine will slowly cool and it is this oil that will gradually drop the turbo temperature. Synthetic oils are less likely to coke up the turbo but still should idle to cool the turbo.

A turbo can last almost forever with this in mind. My MBZ 300SD has 440K original miles on the engine/trans without anything other than oil changes. I have pulled trailers with aircraft coast to coast at FULL throttle several times. It still starts instantly in sub-freezing weather and uses no oil.

Pierce & Gaylie
'93 U300/36

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #12 – May 23, 2011, 10:57:44 am

Wolfe10,
You got it. I have seen a Richmond Va phone book go through a 353 Cat turbo on start up in the shop as it wanted to run away filling the service bay with confetti.
Why we made up 1" plywood plates to fit the air filter housings of different models with nice handles for the stopper if/when needed.
Always said the best place I ever worked hourly wages & perks was Cat, but also stand by the fact I would never own one. Cat has the best schools at Peoria, been there 3 times, loved every school, great instructors. etc...
For sure the correct amount of oil leakage for a nice idle speed. Oh yes, as is said "Been there & Done that"

Cheers

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #13 – May 23, 2011, 11:06:38 am

Its funny, you get to thinking because you read the forum religiously for a couple of years that you are pretty smart about things Foretravel. I had never heard of a runaway engine and would have had no idea about the potential bad outcome or what to do about it. Thanks again to those more educated in Diesel engines for sharing their knowledge.

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #14 – May 23, 2011, 11:24:34 am

We have had numerous runaway diesels in the Houston area thanks to drivers leaving their trucks running while loading or unloading volatile gases, etc. In that case the ONLY way to stop the engine is to shut off the air. The trucking companies did not employ an automatic shut off, the engines over revved and blew up, resulting in fireballs and death.

air intake shut off valve by amot control - emergency shut down valve

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #15 – May 23, 2011, 11:42:42 am

Alright, you guys are making me nervous. Does anyone personally know of a Foretravel or any SOB having a problem like this? Isn't this a very rare occurrence?

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #16 – May 23, 2011, 12:06:51 pm

Kent,
I would relax, the only diesel engines I have ever heard of blowing up are engines with way too many hours/miles on them, meaning totally wore out. Most people know when their engine is in trouble and have it rebuilt/repaired long before it gets anywhere near the run away area.
Of course if you start spraying either type into it long enough if can have real issues too.
But as for the Foretravel users, it would be very unlikely one would get anywhere near that king of mileage/hours to be concerned about excessive oil causing a run away problem. SO relax, worry about the diesel fuel mileage or how much ice cream you need.

There is one exception, that would be a mechanic working on a 2 cycle Detroit Diesel, a mechanic who does not know or love a DDA engine. More DDA engines get blown up from poor mechanics than poor engine condition, reason, the governor and fuel rack are touchy and if the mechanic does not fully understand it, chances for a run away are real good. the other reason is over either will also put pistone outside the block.

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #17 – May 23, 2011, 12:19:19 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – May 23, 2011, 11:42:42 am

Alright, you guys are making me nervous. Does anyone personally know of a Foretravel or any SOB having a problem like this? Isn't this a very rare occurrence?

Yes and yes. All diesels have a injector pump and as long as the pump keeps pumping fuel to the engine, it will keep running until you cut off the air supply or the fuel supply. The Cummins employs a fuel shutoff solenoid in the vicinity of the pump. Some can just be unplugged and some use a electro magnetic switch that you have to screw in with a screw driver. On the Detroits, as Dave said, there is a emergency shutdown cable/switch. You have to ask Brett about the Cats, cause I don't know anything about them.

Now with a screaming, over revving, runaway, you want to get it shut down asap, big time asap!!! Turn the key off or stall it NOW!!! This is usually caused by a engine consuming its own lubrication oil and running at higher and higher RPM until it overspeeds to a point where it destroys itself. it is caused by "blow by". Old VW Rabbit diesels without turbos also had the problem. First the turbo will destroy its self and then the turbo fins are sucked into the engine. Bad things them happen!!! Now this can be caused by something else. If you are at a gas station which is getting a delivery of gasoline and the fumes are not being recovered and hanging low, this can cause a diesel to over rev also. The gasoline fumes are getting sucked into the air intake. This is where the valve that John talks about comes into play. Better yet, stay away from areas where gasoline tankers are unloading or areas where there could be explosive fumes.

Now I have a electrical problem I need to discuss on a different thread! Gotta go.

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #18 – May 23, 2011, 12:24:21 pm

Dave, my intention is to have a Detroit shop do any engine work, however if they aren't any better than the mechanics at the Cummins shops, I may be in trouble. Are there any key questions to ask to determine the knowledge and experience of a Detroit mechanic? I also had good experience with the Freightliner shops, any opinions on them?

Pat, do you know where the emergency shutdown switch is or what it looks like on a Detorit?

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #19 – May 23, 2011, 12:28:34 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – May 23, 2011, 12:24:21 pm

Dave, my intention is to have a Detroit shop do any engine work, however if they aren't any better than the mechanics at the Cummins shops, I may be in trouble. Are there any key questions to ask to determine the knowledge and experience of a Detroit mechanic? I also had good experience with the Freightliner shops, any opinions on them?

Pat, do you know where the emergency shutdown switch is or what it looks like on a Detorit?

It was usually a pull T handle on the floor by the drivers seat, but that was on the 318s. I almost think that the 92 series used a electro magnetic switch at the pump too, but can't remember for sure.

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #20 – May 23, 2011, 12:54:51 pm

Always remember something else to say. If your idle speed starts wandering and won't stabilize, or takes longer than normal to shut down can be a possible symptom of a leaking turbo seal. Fuel supply can also cause this so not to panic. We always park any fire trucks upwind at a natural gas or propane leak/accident. Shutting off the fuel may not do any good in the above cases and the governor will NOT limit RPM so stay back if it's screaming. Like Dave said, the only way to shut off the engine is to shut off the air supply with a plywood plug, etc. This usually only occurs on very high mileage engines/turbos but you should be prepared for the symptoms. Activating the Jake brake might do the trick in some situations.

Worst case scenario would be a runaway engine and automatic transmission. Can't stall the engine with the automatic and if heading downhill and the brakes overheated... Nothing to do but radio the town ahead to clear the streets. I did the script for "Christine" in '83 and "Runaway Train". Right.

Don't let anyone talk you into a $1500 turbo job. NEW turbos are available starting at $300 on ebay. Anyone with rudimentary mechanical knowledge can change one fairly quickly with hand tools, depending on the installation access. See this page for turbo prices: cummins turbo | eBay
Turbo should match model numbers exactly as they may have different output, rpm, etc. even when they look the same.

Pierce & Gaylie
'93 U300/36 runaway

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #21 – May 23, 2011, 03:42:36 pm

Kent, I would be looking for an older mechanic who most likely have more experience with the 2 strokers, hope you can find the guy who loves the old engines, he will do a better job, you can have three identical engines tuned up by three different mechanics, all three will be much different, one will run smoother, have much better power and idle nice and clean, the other two will not act as well.
Speaking from experience, I got hold of one that had just came out of Stewart Stevenson in Houston, what a mess it was. that is a big name shop too.
One little side note, you never want to test the shut down plate on a DDA 2 cycke, usually that trick will take the seals out of the Roots blower if pulling power when you hit the flapper.
The sad truth is the older DDA 2 cycle engines are way out of date, Their time has came and gone. Today the 4 cycle and computer has won that battle, EPA !!
Enuff

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #22 – May 23, 2011, 04:19:46 pm

Now Dave, Kent does not have an old Detroit with a rack and the other stuff and will not likely need any mechanic for as long as he owns his U300 as the DDEC takes care of all engine parameters and will stay "in tune" for a very long time. Should be a trouble free product as long as you don't abuse the override switch on the dash in case of a system failure (this goes for all computer diesel engines). Kent, go to: Marine Engines - Comparing Diesel Types: Two Cycle, Four Cycle to get the run down on marine diesel applications for power, reliability, etc. A lot translates to our motorhomes.

Dave, what are you using for an engine? Going to make a small model of it and stick it with pins when I get the notion. Reminds me of Mac vs. PC , Dodgers vs. Giants or Donkeys vs. Elephants discussions. (go Dodgers)

Pierce & Gaylie
'93 U300/36

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #23 – May 23, 2011, 05:20:11 pm

Pierce, What are you asking for, I missed your point Donkeys vs elephants, Mac vs PC, What does this have to do with a diesel engine ?

For me, I like any engine that runs good and is quickest on the hills.
Having had 8V-71, 12V-71 and a 8V-92 in a MCI Bus conversion has been educational, what engines have you owned and have experience with?

Re: turbo charger the mechanic said

Reply #24 – May 23, 2011, 08:17:25 pm

Dave,

Thought you were in the Cat or Cummins corner with your comments about Detroit 2 cycles so had to jibe you as if you were backing Donkeys (Democrats) or Elephants (Repubs). Has everything to do with it if pushing one brand over the other. All Foretravel installations (Cats, Cummins, Detroit 2 cycle) are really good engines (my opinion) with most people standing behind their choice. Thought I detected a little panic in a couple of owners after the hard to find a mechanic comment.

Overhauled lots of MBZ diesels, cast up aluminum intakes/cast iron exhaust manifolds for RayJays (Rotomaster) to convert 4 & 5 cylinder MBZ to turbos, lots of pump work to add fuel for the turbos (MW and MRSF Bosch inline pumps), 7.3 Navistar turbo into a Southwind (along with Getrag 5 speed) and other assorted incl. 8V-71 in 4107 bus, VW, Nissan diesels. My longest experience has been with mechanical Detroits driving and instructing new firefighters. Mostly 8V-71s (92s in the ladder truck, newer rigs) with a fuel squeezer 6-71 thrown in. In all my years, we never had one fail to shut down. They ran like clocks and loved to be punished. I did have a couple of guys miss a first gear start on a hill and get the engine running backwards. Not possible with an automatic. The 71 series is the most successful diesel engine the world has seen. Several hundred thousand still in service everywhere in the world. Greyhound knew a good thing when they saw it. Expensive to build with over twice as many parts as the four cycles and a bit harder to smog. Even without oil changes and poor maintenance, the 71 series was almost impossible to blow up. It did help to know the tricks but DDEC has cured all that in the 92 series. As I said in an earlier post, the county FD was all Cat. Also had very few problems. Engine in crash truck behind me is a 60 series Detroit (four cycle).

The only bad engine (aside from the Olds, Cadillac diesel) I have ever seen is the Perkins found in refrigerator units on trucks and in a lot of boats. A poor engine with very limited lifespan and a rotary pump that does not like water. Always the low bidder. In this case, you get what you pay for.

Pierce & Gaylie
'93 U300/36

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