Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Topic: Torsilastic suspension recommendations (Read 2582 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #25 – June 10, 2011, 08:50:17 am

I read an article about an airless airbag system called Sumo Springs, by Supersprings, Inc. They are a closed cell urethane filled airbag. Suspension is provided by the density of the foam rather than air. The are made for a Workhorse chassis so maybe they would work for the Torsilastic coaches. It is my impression that Super Springs likes to work to solve special problems. You might want to give them a call and tell them how many older Foretravels and buses there are out there all of which will probably need a suspension upgrade down the road.

Check out SuperSprings Self-Adjusting Suspension Stabilizers

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #26 – June 10, 2011, 10:34:23 pm

I'm sure various solutions could be engineered. I heard from Ralph via email and he indicated that he has 19000 lbs. torsilastic springs in stock or air add on solution kits. There are many truck frame and suspension shops in my area and I often see MH and buses in their yards so I'm sure I can get the air locally cheaper. My druthers would be to stay OE if possible but at 3 grand for just the parts I don't know if that is the way to go. I'm not 100% sure that going this route would prevent a repeat failure either but then again airbags go bad too but with air I think any of the components can be replaced without such cost. Replacing the torsilastic a second time would be crazy. I'm having a real hard time accepting that I have to spend nearly 20% of the coach's value fixing this problem.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #27 – June 13, 2011, 08:39:54 pm

It occurred to me that the torsilastic springs in the front are not as worn while the weight there is less and the ones from the rear are worn but may be able to handle the lesser weight up front. As I'm not planning any big trips for two or three years, only occasional weekend trips of 150 miles each way, I am thinking about trying to buy some time by moving the springs from the front to the rear and visa versa and rearranging the shims to level her out as close to spec as I can. At the same time I'll add new shocks. Of course this won't work if the front springs are not the same as the rear. Is there a reason this won't work? I can't see sinking $5000 (parts & labor) into this.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #28 – June 13, 2011, 09:02:07 pm

Dwayne,
What I have to say is not much help now but here goes. If you really love your coach, $5,000 will get you the same coach only with the proper suspension components. This is the reason I strongly advocate for anyone to buy the Foretravel they really love and like to drive and go places in. Because, unless you have unlimited financial resources, it would end up costing a hell of a lot more money to change out a coach than to repair the one you picked to own in the first place.

Some folks who are really DIY types (Brian comes to mind), would end up saving on the labor bill, and maybe even on parts. The rest of us have to pay the piper. I do so happily knowing that "Forrest" is in good hands...for now, and should be roaming the highways for many years to come...God willing.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #29 – June 13, 2011, 09:06:20 pm

Quote from: Dwayne – June 13, 2011, 08:39:54 pm

It occurred to me that the torsilastic springs in the front are not as worn while the weight there is less and the ones from the rear are worn but may be able to handle the lesser weight up front. As I'm not planning any big trips for two or three years, only occasional weekend trips of 150 miles each way, I am thinking about trying to buy some time by moving the springs from the front to the rear and visa versa and rearranging the shims to level her out as close to spec as I can. At the same time I'll add new shocks. Of course this won't work if the front springs are not the same as the rear. Is there a reason this won't work? I can't see sinking $5000 (parts & labor) into this.

Dwayne,

The front springs (as a pair) are 9,000 pound capacity. The OE rears are 15,000 (as a pair). The correct replacement rear springs are 19,000 pound capacity (as a pair). Putting 9,000 pounders on the rear would be a sure fire way to have a major problem.

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #30 – June 13, 2011, 09:37:36 pm

OK so that won't work. Brett, In one of your posts from a long time ago you outlined the other changes you made to the rear aside from the shocks or perhaps you mentioned some of the components missing from some of the early 225/240 series coaches other than yours. Could you elaborate?

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #31 – June 13, 2011, 09:47:10 pm

Foretravel fit a front track bar/panhard rod on the U225 and U240, but not one on the rear. I had a rear one custom built. Yes, it helps, particularly in tight mountain driving. No it is not one of the first things I would do to the suspension. I also fit larger custom front and rear sway bars. Again, they help, but come WAY after getting proper ride height, shocks, etc.

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #32 – June 13, 2011, 10:01:56 pm

Just a tidbit of useless info, A couple, Art & Carol Malies ran about 40K miles a year in their Torsilastic equiped Foretravel with the Cat 3208T for years following the World of Outlaws Racing circuit pulling a enclosed trailer hauling the "Workn Woody" a push truck for the WOO racing events.
Just wondering what ever happened to them and if anyone here ever knew them ?
I had a talk with Art about12 years ago when they were at Lincoln Track in Pa.
They are now retired, living in Az. Knew he loved the Foretravel, that was befor I took an interest in the FT, as I was running the V12 MCI

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #33 – June 18, 2011, 03:44:18 pm

Went over to the coach today and was able to spend more time. The place where I keep it isn't a nice flat surface...it is kind of dirt/stones/crushed asphalt covered with sand and leaves. It is kind of rutted at the tire tracks from years of vehicle traffic. I moved it to pavement and very carefully measured behind each front tire and behind both tires in the rear from the ground to the flat surface above. I had been measuring from aside of the tires and always in a hurry. I have just under 33" on the left front, just over 32" on the right front both with plenty of shims, just a little over 32 at the right rear with five or six shims and just under 32 at the left rear where I have no shims on the aft side and three on the forward side of the axle. At every other wheel position they are even numbered fore and aft. I am going to buy new Koni adjustables as per Brett's specifications and have the suspension shop pull all the shims on the left rear and even up the coach at whatever that gives me. Hopefully it is 32 inches or very close. A friend of mine asked me if air shocks would be helpful. I haven't heard anyone mention this so I assume not. I'm going to have the suspension people assess it for adding air over or whatever. I'm looking for someone who has worked on torsilastic so that they'll have a clue about this suspension. Brett, how much I am risking with regard to the shaft alignment as ride height goes under 32 inches which I'm just barely at now? I've lost about 1/2" over two years. I keep it with jacks down all the time. I guess I'm asking to quantify risk at 32" vs. 31 1/2" vs. 31" and trying to find out at what point am I no long able to avoid addressing this. Incidentally the suspension guy I talked to says he didn't hear me say it was a pusher. My daughter starts college this fall and if I have a situation I can live with for now...I need to do that.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #34 – June 18, 2011, 04:57:25 pm

Dwayne,

Definitely remove the three shims from in front of the left rear wheel! That is a real no-no as it induces artificial caster on that side of the axle.

No air shocks that will work on that heavy an application and were they strong enough to raise the coach, the shock mounts would be in jeopardy.

After removing those three shims, you may be adding two of those shims to lower the left front-- you want the coach to be level all around.

What shocks do you have now-- Foretravel used both Koni and Bilstein as OE?

As, I am sure you are aware, measuring ride height on anything but dead level pavement gives false readings. You may need to drive to a shopping mall early on a Sunday morning and find a level piece of concrete. Also, filling water and fuel lowers the front as the tanks are over (water) and immediately behind (propane and diesel) the front axle.

I have no crystal ball to speculate on how low is too low in terms of drive line angle.

Clearly, moving any weight from the left rear, particularly weight behind the rear axle will sure help. Look at location of heavy objects that would not be too difficult to move. Batteries come to mind. On the 1993 they are in front of the right rear wheel, but I know on the 1994 they are in the engine room. Can't remember where yours are. Store nothing you don't have to on the left rear.

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #35 – June 18, 2011, 05:18:13 pm

I have Koni shocks but when I had the safe-t-plus installed I tried to have them adjusted per your instructions but they swore up and down that couldn't get them to adjust even though it clearly says adjustable on the shock and I gave them a copy of the Koni adjustment procedure. This was at a truck suspension shop. They didn't impress me and I won't be going back there. I took photos of them...attached here. I don't have any movable weight on the left rear other than the spare on the roof in that corner. My batteries are where yours are. I think our coaches, prior to all your changes, were nearly identical other than the bath layout based on everything I've read from you over the years. The air filter is in that back corner. The water/electrical/sewage compartment just forward of that wheel position. I know you said the other side with the CAC and radiator is heavier. Perhaps I should switch the two springs? I know when I bought the coach and had Lazydays go over it they found and repaired broken right front shock mount. When I get my new shocks I will ask the suspension people about the angle on the shaft vs. ride height but I doubt they will have any insight. I will ask them about possible room and location for air add-on. Based on prices I've heard quoted, I know I'm not paying that much for the springs although I haven't spoken to Ralph about price yet. If they tell me that adding air will be impossible or more costly than I've heard it should be, I will have to reconsider.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #36 – June 18, 2011, 05:35:11 pm

Before considering replacement, remove and DO adjust the shocks. If you have not done this before, it is much easier off the vehicle. It can be done by just removing one end of the shock and following the procedure below.

As this Koni document shows, there is quite a lot of adjustment in terms of dampening on extension with adjustment.

I find it hard to believe that a suspension shop was did not know how to do this!

Koni-RV

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #37 – June 18, 2011, 06:32:10 pm

I tried to investigate the number on the shock with Koni. They didn't have a clue. I think the shocks are fairly old. When did they come out with adjustables if you know? I knew on my last trip that I wanted to replace them. I especially think the right front is bad. This is the one that had the bad mount. I am hearing a bang on that corner when I hit a bad bump. Not severe but noticeable.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #38 – June 18, 2011, 06:42:17 pm

Dwayne,

Check the panhard rod mounts as well as shock mounts.

I do know that adjustables WERE used as Original Equipment on many U240's of our vintage.

What number is on the shock-- front/rear? I may have some old documentation in my library.

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #39 – June 18, 2011, 07:12:43 pm

Don't know which was front or rear but I have two pictures that have 28-1546 & 56-1546 on them. Koni had no idea. I'm thinking they are very old and should be replaced. I will have the panhard mounts checked as well. It would be nice to know the vintage of those shocks. What kind of a life expectancy do MH / truck shocks usually have? I've had cars where OE shocks didn't last too long but replacements for some reason seemed to last the duration of my ownership. But I've never had a car that was 20 years old other than my Falcon and I know it has good shocks. Put new ones on in 2001 and don't drive it much.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #40 – June 18, 2011, 07:27:01 pm

OE Konis on the U225 and U240 were:

88-1546 front

88-1547 rear

I am surprised that you have any Konis that don't start with 88 or 90 (the two series used on heavier vehicles).

Current replacement recommendations: Koni-RV

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #41 – June 18, 2011, 07:41:44 pm

Dewayne same area same noise.
I don't know the name of this metal support, (Brett can help me out here) its bolted under the spring and sits on the front axle 4 upper bolts and 4 lower bolts. Lower right corner was broken and bolt was missing. Going over bridges it was very noticeable. Stop at Angels truck repair South of Memphis around 5 pm departed at midnight. Very satisfied with repair. I always check these 2 supports for cracks and make sure bolts are tight.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #42 – June 18, 2011, 08:44:47 pm

Thanks I'll check it.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #43 – June 18, 2011, 11:51:48 pm

I ordered new Koni shocks. As best I can find, the shocks on there now were high performance Mercedes shocks (front) and Range Rover shocks (rear) from the seventies or early eighties. Who knows why. I'm buying new bolts and tall boy nuts and probably have the motor guard remade by my shipyard buddies as this one is way too low. I'm going to remove all shims from left rear and have them measure and balance out the other positions. I'll have them inspect all shock and rod mounts. Going to have them advise as to the feasibility of adding air and try to get another year or two out of the suspension before buying new springs or augmenting the existing springs. I think I'll try to find out where the Eagle bus guys go for suspension work in Tampa area. In case of welding...aside from disconnecting the batteries and grounding the frame...do I need to do anything else?

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #44 – June 19, 2011, 09:07:17 am

Dwayne,

It is pretty easy to mark the existing engine guard, remove it (8 bolts) and have it cut off per the marks and re-welded. Far less work than making a new one.

In your Foretravel owners manual is a sheet listing all you need to disconnect when electric welding on the coach. If you don't have it, have James Traina send you one. Certainly the two gang plugs for the Allison ECM need to be removed.

Love to know the story that went with you having Land Rover and MB shocks on your coach!

The Eagle bus's torsilastic was quite a lot different in design than the one used on our and Safari motorhomes. Not sure they would be familiar with it. But, removing shims is NOT rocket science.

It is described in an old write-up I did and well documented by photos John took: 225 Ride Height Torque on the tall boy nuts is 115 ft-lbs.

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #45 – June 19, 2011, 09:40:04 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – June 19, 2011, 09:07:17 am

In your Foretravel owners manual is a sheet listing all you need to disconnect when electric welding on the coach. If you don't have it, have James Traina send you one. Certainly the two gang plugs for the Allison ECM need to be removed.
225 Ride Height Torque on the tall boy nuts is 115 ft-lbs.

Brett

Disconnect the following before welding on completed coaches:

* U270/U280/U295 - B-21 - Alternator ground at alternator
* C-2 - Transmission ground at breakerboard
* Allison ECU - Under dash / driver's side / both plugs
* ABS - 3 plugs in brake ECU - Power in / Front axle / Rear axle
* HWH -All grounds on coach and engine batteries
*
* U240 All of the above except ABS
* U300/U320 C-E18 Same as U270/U280/U295 plus:
* PEEC-ECM at engine - lower square plug w/ allen head screw (2402)
* U300/U320 C-E22 Same as U270/U280/U295 plus:
* CELECT-ECM at engine - top plug w/ 2 screws (38459) and round Deutsch plug (2348)
* Any coach with Aqua Hot option:
* Disconnect A9 red 8 ga and A10 black 8 ga at breakerboard in compartment
* Any coach with Primus option:
* Unplug all connections on boilers
* Disconnect #8 black at control panel inside coach
Welding Checklist

Previous thread
Welding on Frame......

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #46 – June 19, 2011, 08:27:17 pm

Barry,
From your list, I understand the ECU plugs and the negative battery posts. Are you saying to disconnect the alternator where it grounds to the frame and I'm assuming that there is a breaker in the box under the bed for just the ECU or transmission? I don't recall seeing that one there.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #47 – June 19, 2011, 09:07:03 pm

Transmission fuses are under the dash (flip up the dash) on the driver's side. There are two. Also, at driver's feet is the Allison ECM, Disconnect the two gang plugs.

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #48 – June 19, 2011, 11:37:18 pm

OK. I seem to remember those...far left side.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #49 – June 28, 2011, 09:02:31 pm

On the drive up rack at the suspension shop I was able to get good measurements. The bad side on the back was the left rear. No shims on one end and four on the other. Was at 31 1/2 but removing the four brought it up to 32 1/4. The odd side on the front was the left side (again the lighter position!) where I had 10 & 6 and it was at 31 3/4 but only came up to 32. I had them remove one more on each end to get 32 1/4. I had 10 & 10 on the right front at 31 1/2 and pulled three each end to get to 32 1/4. Can't recall right rear (had five maybe) but pulled three to get to 32 1/4. All the bolts on the left rear were eaten up and had to be replaced (see photo). Some were cut off with the torch. I think I had at least one bolt at every position except the left front cut off to get it out. There was no tall boy nuts anywhere. The left rear had three nuts on each bolt. One of the bolts had to go in upside down on both sides in the rear. None of the other bolts were eaten up like the left rear. They didn't look great but threads were intact and would allow the nut to be tightened. The only other bolts replaced were those cut off to get them out. The shocks were a bear too. The rear shocks were sized similarly to the front (see photo). The new rear Koni had to have a brass insert to fit with the bolt and to fit the upper brackets (see photos). Even with air tools it was a fight getting torsilastic bolts out. The left rear tires had to come off to get better leverage. I observed the entire time and even helped some. They had two guys (one experienced and one trainee) working all day on this. Two guys all day, 32 tall boy nuts and several bolts and they charged me $550. They didn't see anything obviously bad otherwise although they hadn't see this set-up before. They've been there 40 years. There were trucks, buses and RV's there. This wasn't their first rodeo but they really didn't know about this set-up. The guy was sure that the 6 and 10 shim count on the right front was to induce caster. They were familiar with the Rockwell axle and knew how it is typically aligned in other vehicles but this torsilastic had them scratching their heads. Result: Ride over bumps much improved. I might firm up the fronts some more as even with a full tank of fuel the front seems even more light and possibly even more rear sway as if there was a hinge in the middle of the coach. I might add that panhard bar in the rear. They said it looked like it was set-up to have one. They thought adding air would be a very big job and cost more than replacing the springs although that is going to be a job too. Hopefully I can get a few more years with this adjustment. My hat is off to you guys who got into this with hand tools in the driveway. I told these techs that and I'm not sure they believed it.

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