Torsilastic suspension recommendations

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Torsilastic suspension recommendations

June 04, 2011, 10:49:54 am

You guys with the U225 and U240 who mention bottoming out, PLEASE check your ride height. If you still have adjustment shims left, you can very easily raise the coach back to OE specs. If you are out of shims, there is currently (no more when they are gone) a small quantity of rear torsilastic springs for our coaches. If you need them, better get them NOW.

And the under-engine protector skid bar was originally designed for an engine with much deeper pan than the Caterpillar 3116. If you look, there are a lot of inches between the skid bar and the pan. The skid bar is only held by 8 bolts. Remove it and have a welder cut off and re-weld to the minimum clearance that will protect the pan. Anything below that is just -- well, just excess.

BTW, all the Caterpillar 3116's in the U240's through the years were the same 250 HP, 650 lb-ft torque at 1560 RPM. And unless driven hard, 10 MPG was standard.

1995 was the first (and only) year the U240 was a wide body, but built on the same track as the 96" coaches.

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #1 – June 04, 2011, 11:04:02 pm

Brett,
I think I'm ok on the shims. Ride height is pretty close to spec and I see that the engine guard could be altered. I'm curious about the torsilastic spring you mentioned. How many still out there, where and how much money? I asked this question before and I believe you said it wasn't possible but I would think that somewhere the mini air bags that are put on pick-ups that haul heavy load in the bed could be added to take some of the strain off of the spring so as to extend its life. Have you ever considered this? I remember you mentioned that there are buses with a million miles with this suspension. What is the reason some seem to never go bad while others have problems? I've read your excellent piece on the workings of the suspension and I asked James Triana about the suspension once during a discussion about the steering pump failure and he said he'd never seen any with the torsilastic re-engineered but wasn't at all sure that it couldn't be done. I know someone very knowledgeable about motorhomes who admits to knowing very little about this suspension though he'd heard of it. Without inspecting it, he said he'd be surprised if the rubber stuff could't be removed and air bags retrofitted in. Perhaps when the springs are all gone someone will have to get experimental to save their coach.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #2 – June 04, 2011, 11:38:07 pm

The entire supply of the "proper" (my term) 19,000 pound rear torsilastic springs were purchased by Pioneer Metal Works

Ralph Andrews, the owner of Pioneer Metals has a Safari with torsilastic suspension and is very familiar with the suspension.

The reason so many of the rear springs on the U240's failed (my opinion) is that they are 15,000 pound springs loaded to 15,000 or perhaps a little more. Newer the coach the heavier the rear was loaded-- rear of 1994 heavier than 1993 as batteries moved to the rear, retarder added to some of them. The 1995 is a wide body, so that's extra weight even over the 1994.

I have had the 19,000 pound rear springs on our coach for over a decade-- in fact I worked with the engineers at B.F. Goodrich who designed and built the springs and picked them up at Goodrich in Jacksonville FL. That division is now closed.

I don't like the idea of a "bubble gum and bailing wire" fix. That is what I consider adding an air bag to semi-support the rear suspension. Could someone make an proper air suspension for the rear-- yes, I have seen one, but well more than the cost of new torsilastic springs.

And I would suggest that no one "think they are OK on shims"-- MEASURE IT. I would suggest that "OK on shims" means that current ride height when loaded as you go down the road is factory spec of 32-33" as measured from the "shelf" behind each wheel position to the ground with the coach on level pavement. AND that you have at least 3 shims remaining for future adjustment. Removing those three shims will raise the coach 3/4" at that wheel position. Were I to keep a coach and it did not meet this definition of "OK on shims" I would immediately buy a set of 19,000 pound rear springs from Pioneer metals. When he sells the ones he has, there are no more on planet earth! He bought 100% of those that Monaco/Safari had when Navistar bought the assets of Monaco. No one else has even one in stock.

Front springs are not a problem-- at least I have never seen a ride height issue on the front of any U225 or U240. Rear springs are less of a problem on the U225 as the Cummins B engine and 4 speed Allison are quite a lot lighter than the Caterpillar 3116 and Allison MD3060 6 speed and have the same 15,000 pound rear springs.

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #3 – June 05, 2011, 12:35:54 am

Thanks. I'll measure again and check shims. Last I checked the height was perfect. Didn't count the shims. How much are a set last you heard?

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #4 – June 05, 2011, 08:48:38 am

Dwayne,

Sorry, I have not priced a set in 10 years. Perhaps someone else has a price or call Pioneer Metals on Monday.

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #5 – June 05, 2011, 09:10:38 am

Quote from: Dwayne – June 04, 2011, 12:54:59 am

Only other complaint is that it is so low I've bottomed out a few times on the steel tube guarding the underside of the engine. You've got to watch for radical grade changes. I turned off a road going to a campground where the drive dropped down from the road suddenly and nearly got stuck. Brett Wolfe is the expert on this coach and can tell you anything you want to know. Confirming ride height of 32.5 with shims remaining is critical. Pulling shims raises coach 1/4 " I think. Brett Wolfe is the expert for sure. All things considered I'd rather have this rig with no payment than any other one with a payment.

Here is one of Bretts informative write ups on the subject.
A discussion of maintenance, adjustments and changes to the Torsilastic Suspension found on the 1991-1995 Foretravel U225/U240 by Brett Wolfe.
Foretravel Torsilastic Suspension

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #6 – June 05, 2011, 12:44:42 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – June 05, 2011, 08:48:38 am

Dwayne,

Sorry, I have not priced a set in 10 years. Perhaps someone else has a price or call Pioneer Metals on Monday.

Brett

I was told two days ago. $1400 a corner by Ralph who owns them.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #7 – June 05, 2011, 07:40:19 pm

Wow...$2800 plus labor...that's a kick in the wallet.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #8 – June 05, 2011, 08:03:07 pm

My cost was approx. $3000.00 for complete rear suspension including freight. From Quincy Wa. to Rolla Mo.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #9 – June 05, 2011, 08:19:52 pm

Relax and Enjoy, 15 years ago the Eagle Bus suspension units were $2,500.00 each X 6 for all, plus about 30 hr labor.
SO if you can have the rear dome complete, my feelings are that you are very lucky.
Cheers

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #10 – June 05, 2011, 08:37:21 pm

I wonder what percentage of these unit have experienced failure. Should be minimal otherwise there was very bad engineering from the get go. I would think that some augmentation of existing suspension should be possible so as to take away some of the stress. If the percentage is high, clearly some strategy of springs/shocks/air whatever should have been undertaken. I'd be surprised that Foretravel didn't do this based on my experience with them when I had the fan pump go. They had a replacement unit and the necessary hoses and external pressure relief valve packaged ready to go out because they knew the old pump was no longer available and a certain amount of re-engineering was necessary and they had done there homework and even though this is a 20 year old rig, they were prepared with a plan, including instructions for the installer. I was very impressed.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #11 – June 05, 2011, 09:11:34 pm

Dwayne, Just for the rest of the story about the Eagle, in the end, air bags were fitted ontop of the six rubber suspensin units, The owner says it never rode nor handled as well as it does now. This all happened when the units that were replaced 15 years ago, started to sag/fail again.
SO, the engineering began, mounting plates on top of the rubber suspension, plates for top0 and bottom, air height valves, air line plumbing. Turned out nice and the sustomer loves the new setup better than the factory origional.
SO with some thought, maybe you can improve on your design and save money and wind up with a better suspension.
Remember, with a welder, grinder, drill and a gas setup, you can make anything.
Give it some thought.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #12 – June 05, 2011, 10:54:47 pm

If you could couple the advantages of both systems you'd have a heck of a ride!

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #13 – June 06, 2011, 02:05:00 pm

OK. Front looks good but hard to tell on the rear with all the crap on them. They look fused together. I need to get under the rig rather than sticking my hand in with a camera. Here is the bad news on my shims.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #14 – June 06, 2011, 02:26:06 pm

looks like no shims on the left rear aft but several on the opposite end of the same side. They should be even # same wheel.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #15 – June 06, 2011, 03:00:26 pm

Dwayne,

Correct. At either end of a torsilastic spring (i.e. at one wheel position) the shims HAVE to be the same in front and behind or you are artificially inducing CASTER.

And, you could have 5 shims on one side and 2 on the other side of the axle, no problem. This answer is to have the ride height the same.

I have been asked in a PM "how to" adjust the ride height. So here goes.

Measure ride height when loaded as you drive down the road. Flat pavement, jacks stowed. 32" to 33" is factory spec from the "shelf" behind each wheel position. This area is parallel to the ground and forms the back of the wheel well. It is the only area anywhere near that dimension. Remembering that removing one of the shims from in front of and behind a wheel position RAISES the coach 1/4", make a note (I use a piece of masking tape on the fender well lip) to list the number of shims to be removed. Example, you measure ride height at 31 1/2", but have plenty of shims. Middle of factory spec is 32 1/2". Removing 4 of the 1/4" shims will raise that wheel position 1". You may find that you don't have enough shims on one side to get that high. So always start with the lower side/one with fewer shims. Said another way, if removing all the shims will only get you to 32", you don't want the other side at 32 1/2"-- they would both be set to 32". However, if you are going to keep the coach and are low or out of adjustment shims, I strongly recommend buying the stronger 19,000 pound rear springs while they are available.

Use the jacks to take about 1/2 the weight off the axle to be worked on. Wire brush the threads on the through shim bolts and spray with WD-40 or similar. Loosen, do NOT remove, the 4 "tall boy" nuts at the bottom of the through-shim bolts. Again, do NOT remove! If the nuts appear to be of standard dimension for that size thread,they are WRONG and will not stand up well to the proper torque. Replace with tall boy nuts from any good bolt store. The shims are slotted. As soon as the nuts are loosened, you can take a screwdriver and hammer and easily push the proper number of shims out of the shim stack. Torque nuts to 115 ft-lbs. But, before torquing, verify that the threads are OK where you will be torquing the nuts. It is possible that that area rubbed on the metal plate and that the threads are bunged up. If so, take the bolt to any bolt shop and buy a replacement. The outer ones come out easily. Inner ones not so easily.

Lower jacks on that axle and take 1/2 the weight off the other axle and do that one. If no problems with bad threads, excessive rust, etc about 1 hour per axle is what it will take.

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #16 – June 06, 2011, 03:16:22 pm

Brett, not being familiar with the system used on the Foretravel suspension, I wonder if the critical adjustment is purely height or weight as the weight balance can be way way off as my experience is with the Eagle setup, and the actual weight per wheel position can get real crazy even when it looks great. Trying to get an acceptable weight per wheel position is a time consuming labor even if you had a scale under each wheel. adjust one, and the other three go crazy, why I prefer the simple 3 air height valves

Just wondering or is this not a concern?

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #17 – June 06, 2011, 03:21:53 pm

Have what appears to be 8 to 9 shims per position going by a quick count without crawling under to do a exact count.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #18 – June 06, 2011, 03:24:24 pm

Quote from: Dave M – June 06, 2011, 03:16:22 pm

Brett, not being familiar with the system used on the Foretravel suspension, I wonder if the critical adjustment is purely height or weight as the weight balance can be way way off as my experience is with the Eagle setup, and the actual weight per wheel position can get real crazy even when it looks great. Trying to get an acceptable weight per wheel position is a time consuming labor even if you had a scale under each wheel. adjust one, and the other three go crazy, why I prefer the simple 3 air height valves
Just wondering or is this not a concern?

With only the two axles as found on the U225 and U240, I really haven't seen that much of a problem. Yes, the right rear of many is heavier (and will be), as the radiator, CAC, batteries and more furniture in the rear of the coach are on that side. Could you fudge a little and perhaps have the other side an eight of an inch to a quarter of an inch higher to take more weight-- I guess so. But we are really splitting hairs here. The left to right imbalance is just not that significant on our application.

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #19 – June 06, 2011, 03:25:57 pm

Quote from: PatC – June 06, 2011, 03:21:53 pm

Have what appears to be 8 to 9 shims per position going by a quick count without crawling under to do a exact count.

Wow, that is not unreasonable in front, but I would be shocked if you are anywhere near proper ride height in the rear with that many shims. Measure it and let us know.

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #20 – June 06, 2011, 03:29:26 pm

Brett, Thanks, one reason I mention this, on the Eagle, it is very easy to carry most of the weight on the left front wheel and right rear wheel for example, makes for an awkward bicycle effect, and nasty handling. Nother one of those been there done that thing

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #21 – June 06, 2011, 04:00:13 pm

Looks like it has been this way for a long time. I've driven up and down the east coast the year before last and out west and back last year and don't seem to have uneven tire wear or symptoms of anything being wrong. The ride height is between 32-33 all around. Wondering why this one end of the axle has the shims uneven like this. Could someone along the line be trying to correct for some other problem? I was surprised to see no shims on one side of the wheel and several on the other. I wonder if I should even them out prior to going with new springs. I'd like to get the springs and store them until I have the right rear corner drop under spec. At least I could split the cost of parts and labor by a season or so.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #22 – June 06, 2011, 04:13:37 pm

Improper, induced caster may give no tire-wear symptoms. But the axle was not meant to be "bent" like that. Yes, even out the number of shims at that wheel position so they are the same front and back of that one beam.

And the amount of rust on those rear shackles (from your Photo) is excessive. Compare to the front of your coach which appears normal. Probably another symptom of that potable water leak. I would wire brush, Ospho, etc to clean them up if you are not replacing them.

It is a little hard to tell from the photos, but it appears you do not have the tall boy nuts, but rather someone put on "standard size" nuts and then double nutted them. I would replace them. If you do it one at a time, no big deal, as the other three will hold the suspension/coach in place while you replace that one. Torque to 115 ft-lbs (with clean, dry threads).

Brett

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #23 – June 06, 2011, 11:53:02 pm

After I get over the "Oh my God another huge expense" shock I will formulate a plan. The only saving grace is having a quality albeit old MH with no real debt and probably not much more to do for quite awhile. Of course I've been saying that at each juncture since I've owned it. I know my trips in it will be limited from Tampa to Gainesville & back with some frequency for the next year or two (or four) and seeing as how I have another major expense item during this same period I have some thinking to do. I know my schedule won't permit any big trips this year and probably not next year either. I will be calling Ralph to see how many of those 19000 lbs springs he has in stock and perhaps plan on at least getting the parts.

Re: Torsilastic suspension recommendations

Reply #24 – June 08, 2011, 09:56:29 pm

Checked ride height again on level pavement with jacks up and have 31" and I got my photos mixed up. The wheel with no shims on one side of the spring is the left rear, not the radiator side which I guess is unusual. I know I had 32" prior to my last trip. Sent Ralph at Pioneer an email but haven't heard back from him. Still not sure what to do. Spending a big pile of money on the coach this year wasn't, or should I say isn't, in the cards. Still thinking about investigating an air add on also. I know if there is an obvious spot for the brackets it should be a lot cheaper than $3000 for parts plus installation. I'm not at all sure that there is anyone around here that I could trust with this suspension. They've all seen air based ones.

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