How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Topic: How Much to Spend for Service on U300 (Read 1756 times) previous topic - next topic

How Much to Spend for Service on U300

June 08, 2011, 09:33:52 am

I just spoke with the local Detroit shop about getting everything checked out on my 93, U300. When I bought it last fall, it had just had a fresh oil change and lube. After driving it 6000 miles I think its time for an oil change and I have not been getting good MPG's, regardless of speed, other members get with the same DDEC 6V92 Detroit 350 hp engine. I'm getting 6.7 mpg average and never over 7.2 mpg and that was at 70 mph. One trip at 58 mph got only 6.5 mpg.

The local Detroit shop said an engine diagnostic would run between $600, to check the rack, up to $1,200 to check sleeves, rings, pretty much everything.

They also quoted between $250 and $600 for an engine oil change and lube for the engine and between $375 and $625 for a transmission fluid change to synthetic. They did not think synthetic oil for the 6V92 was a good idea.

I would like to hear opinions of our more experienced members about these costs or any alternative suggestions and whether I should do the oil and lube myself. Is dropping $2000 at the Detroit shop a good investment to establish a base line for the engine/transmission maintenance? If I do the oil/lube myself, are there little quirks dealing with the oil filters and fuel filters, etc. I need to know about? Disposal of that much oil may be a problem for me. In a previous post, one of our learned members suggested finding a local mechanic that was an expert at tuning the Detroits. How would I go about finding someone truly competent?

Thanks in advance for your help!!!

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #1 – June 08, 2011, 10:11:26 am

Kent,
This is an easy one, if you can spare the cash. Do it. It will establish your base line as the new owner, and eliminate any guessing on your part. If you can go from 7 to 8 mpg, the payback is just a year and a half. Assuming you drive 20,000 miles per year and fuel is $4/gal:

$2,000.00 Cost, 500.00 gals fuel equivalent 20,000 miles per year
7 mpg 2,857 gallons per year
8 mpg 2,500 gallons per year 357 gallons saved $ 1,428.57 annual savings

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #2 – June 08, 2011, 10:21:27 am

Peter, thanks for the analysis. Even considering the payback, its just the thought of spending that much just for service. I am, after all, Scottish by lineage. I really just need to be assured that there is probably no better alternative.

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #3 – June 08, 2011, 10:26:43 am

Kent,
I agree about the investment amount...but, the main thing is to spend it with a very competent shop, and not throw it away with some DD mechanical technician wannabe.

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #4 – June 08, 2011, 10:48:42 am

I got that shock too the first time. Don't have the DD, but getting the oil, transmission fluid, differential, and generator oil changed right after purchase as there were no maintenance records was over $700 and that was a discounted price as it was summer in FL. Instead of 4 qts of oil, its 4 gal and the filter holds 3 qts (part of the 4 gal), same for all the other parts equally large. If you can change the oil and lube a car, you can probably do the MH. Just make sure all the parts and fluids are approved for the engine, transmission, etc. This includes oil, transmission fluid, antifreeze, etc. You will need a big plastic box or metal washtub to catch the fluid. If the fluid is hot the metal tub is better. Don't lube the grease fittings on the brakes, as a special grease and procedure is required.

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #5 – June 08, 2011, 01:27:41 pm

Kent, I would be thinking the 6 gal 40 wt oil at $12.00 gal and oil filter at $25.00, both fuel filters total $30.00, so you get the idea, and even the air filter might be in the $80.00 range.
I would figure the air filter is what you will need most of all.
SO you figure how much they are making on you.
Yes, the TranSynd for the Allison is a great idea, at Local DDA dealers it goes for about $35.00 gal and not sure how much your transmission holds nor what filters it requires.
NO Synthetic for DDA engines.
I would go with the rack adjustment/check, and to check the cylinder liners, simply remove the air box covers on each side and using a flashlight have a look see inside the liners. Frankly, I would forget the cylinder inspection unless you notice low compression on one or more cylinders during the crank cycle.
Oil filter NAPA 1970, Primary fuel 3118, Secondary fuel 3120, Check Filter Barn pricing, same for the transmission filter if you can find the part number.
Changing oil is not a biggie, but can get sloppy.

Dave M

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #6 – June 08, 2011, 04:26:37 pm

Kent,

Before changing fluids I would have a fluid analysis done. You take a small sample of each fluid and send it off the the lab of your choice . You will get a report back showing what is in the fluid. Wear particles, contaminants etc. from that you can tell if there is excessive wear rates or contamination of the fluid. I have used Blackstone Labs personally and Pennzoil's labs professionally, but any competent lab will do. As an example, if glycol is present in the engine oil there is a leak between the fluids. Usually a head gasket on it's way out. It will also give you a base line to refer to. In a previous life one of my departments was in charge of the maintenance of large municipal fleets. Regular sampling on high value units saved a few unpleasant surprises.

Keith

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #7 – June 08, 2011, 04:52:37 pm

Kent !!!!

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #8 – June 08, 2011, 05:07:16 pm

Kent !!!!
Find another shop.
To start with they should know that the 6V92TA does not have a "rack", it is an electronic engine.
I had a diagnostic check on mine when I first got it for $200.00.

Only Good advice they gave you was on oil change. Go with straight 40wt (delo-400).
By al means do an oil analysis on both tranny & engine ( maybe even rear end).
Even if you have to remove the front wheel, check the oil in your front wheel bearing.

I'm sure you will get much more advice, just remember the 6V92TA is a one of a kind engine.

There is a shop in Mineral Wells Texas thet specialisis in them. I have not been there yet, but have talked to them several times.

I switched to syn in the tranny. but have then flush the tranny too ( after oil analysis )

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #9 – June 08, 2011, 06:13:03 pm

Thanks to all.

I had forgotten about getting a fluids analysis. I will do that first.

I have changed the oil in my U225 so I know its no big deal but disposal is a real problem, particularly with the volume of oil this one holds. Disposal of antifreeze of that quantity is also a problem. Does anyone have any suggestions for disposal of used oil and antifreeze?

Hey Pierce, I'm still waiting to hear from you.

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #10 – June 08, 2011, 06:28:39 pm

Kent,
WalMart will take your used oil for free.

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #11 – June 08, 2011, 07:10:25 pm

Quote

Disposal of antifreeze of that quantity is also a problem. Does anyone have any suggestions for disposal of used oil and antifreeze?

Kent,
I recycle my oil, oil filter and antifreeze at our county dump, so you may check your local area and see if they offer that service. I used to take my oil and oil filters to my local airport when I was still flying.

I used my local Cat dealer to do the oil analysis and it looks like Warren Cat has locations in your area.
Locations | Warren CAT

Hope to see you in a few weeks on our way north if your still home.

Thanks,

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #12 – June 08, 2011, 07:56:25 pm

Quote from: George Stoltz – June 08, 2011, 06:28:39 pm

Kent,
WalMart will take your used oil for free.

George, if Walmart takes it that would be great. I will check with them tomorrow.

Quote from: Brad – June 08, 2011, 07:10:25 pm

Quote
Disposal of antifreeze of that quantity is also a problem. Does anyone have any suggestions for disposal of used oil and antifreeze?

Kent,
I recycle my oil, oil filter and antifreeze at our county dump,
Locations | Warren CAT

Hope to see you in a few weeks on our way north if your still home.

Thanks,

I had checked with the local government agencies, dump etc., but no oil or anti freeze.

Brad, let us know when you are coming North. We plan to be on the road sometime within the next two weeks. The house is spiffed up as much as possible and now on the market. We have had almost 400 hits on the virtual open house in just one week but no offers yet. Maybe next week.

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #13 – June 08, 2011, 08:47:52 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – June 08, 2011, 06:13:03 pm

Does anyone have any suggestions for disposal of used oil and antifreeze?

Here in Austin any facility doing oil changes are required to accept used oil. I don't know if that holds true for the county or the rest of Texas. I'm not sure if they are required to take antifreeze, but the city recycling center will take oil and antifreeze, old paint, and hazardous household chemicals.

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #14 – June 08, 2011, 10:15:23 pm

Kent,
I do my own oil changes and replaced the plug with one of these:
FUMOTO ENGINEERING
I direct fill plastic milk jugs from the valve - clean and easy. Changing the oil filter is still messy.
I have curbside recycling that picks up used motor oil - although only one gallon at a time. Not applicable for a future fulltimer.
I use 40 wt Chevron Delo 100 per http://www.tejascoach.com/tejasoil.html#Oilrec recommendations. I buy 5 gal pales and have to buy it at an oil distributor because it's getting harder to find- I usually get 2 at a time. My mileage has always been in the 8's (2600# toad, usually 65 mph) but my engine is only 300hp. Your low mileage makes me wonder is something is a miss. Need to talk to others with exact same setup for proper comparison. I did a dyno test when I first bought my coach to see if the HP is where it should be. And another check might be valves - I'm not sure what the mileage interval is for that - I'm thinking I've heard every 100k - I had mine done at 85K, again when I first bought it (that was 10 yrs ago when I took a 3 yr sabbatical).
Hope this helps.

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #15 – June 08, 2011, 11:46:07 pm

The great OZ is about to speak.....trouble is, we all know what happened when Dorothy pulled the curtain back.

An oil change is really easy. Just warm up the engine or drive it a couple of miles. Park it level and then make sure to follow forum post instructions so your U300 with that oh so pretty paint job, does not come down on top of you and also make sure to block the wheels. I use a big kitty litter plastic bucket to drain the oil into. Fits under the oil pan. Should have newspaper, paper towels, throw away gloves and hand cleaner close by. Filter strap will be a good, cheap investment for all filters. You have read the Delo 100 posts so after getting a couple of cases, just order up filters from above forum source. I don't use Fram filters. Oil filter will make a mess when you spin it off so be ready. Follow the online/on box instructions for spinning it back on...no need to use a wrench. Use torque wrench if you don't feel confident in how much to tighten the pan drain bolt. You should also drain the catch tank for the slurper tubes. Call O'Reilly, Autozone, Napa or WalMart store ahead of time for oil recycling. Put the top back on the kitty litter bucket and DON'T spill it (like I have) on the way to the recycler. Use felt tip marker on all filters with the date and mileage. Enter in maintenance book also. Easy to look on filter rather than opening book.

Fuel filters are super easy also. Just order them at the same time. Use strap wrench to loosen and hand tighten to replace. I spin them back leaving them with only a few turns before contacting the gasket and then use the little hand pump down on the frame just inside the big engine door on the right side to prime the filters. Pump until the first filter overflows and then tighten by hand. Do the same for the second overflows. Don't have to worry about air in the system as Detroits prime themselves easily. If the hand pump does not work well, Napa has the two little O rings to fix it (had to fix mine).

Transmission oil filter is easy but pan holds a LOT of fluid. Just remember that you can't drain the torque converter so stated capacity may or may not include the torque converter. Don't overfill!!! A lot to be said for synthetics and also for staying with conventional fluid. First change with a synthetic will not make it all syn. because of the fluid in the converter. All filters, drain plugs are CCW to take off when looking up from the bottom. Follow factory instructions for cold and hot fluid level checks.

The manuals the U300 came with have all the instructions for checking rear axle, slack adjusters, etc. There must be a thousand pages so when you find the material, photo copy the pages for fast future reference.

When doing all this, check all belts and make sure you have spares. Good idea to put the new belts on and keep the old ones (if in good shape) for spares.

As I said in my letter, your speed/rpm does not match mine or Bill Chaplin's U300. You should be seeing 82 mph true/gps at 2100 rpm. Since this is in direct drive/lockup, it is easy to do the math for lower speeds. Your figures indicate to me that either you have a higher numerical rear axle ratio or your transmission is not locking up into direct drive. This is a four speed transmission but you should feel shifts from first to second, second to second lockup about half way through second gear and then second (lockup) to third (lockup) and last, third (lockup) to fourth (lockup). This could explain the difference in fuel mileage between our coaches.

I have seen old, tired gas or diesel engines get as good or better fuel mileage than new rigs. Any cylinder leakage, etc. may be made up for by lower internal friction. Lower friction from larger piston to cylinder clearance, main and rod bearings, etc.

Try the engine and then transmission switches under the flip up dash for stored computer codes. Light bulb will blink codes. Code definitions in the manual and online. Good idea to find someone to plug in diagnostic reader to make sure engine and transmission are operating as they should.

Kent, you communicate your ideas very well on the forum and would probably have a good "gift of gab" in person. Why don't you find a retired or weekend moonlighting mechanic (best if Detroit DDEC knowledgeable) to help you on your first venture in DIY maintenance? He could give a lot of tips and give you a sense of confidence. Don't think I have ever met anyone without being of a bit envious of an ability that I wish I had. A lot of good people out of work or with short hours that could help. A lot more personal than taking your RV to a shop that has "no one allowed past this point" sign posted.

Bottom line. I do it all myself with only the cost of materials most of the time. I have learned (the hard way) to get advise from others who have more knowledge rather than blundering along when I am not certain. Don't mind paying for it when I have to. What did Clint Eastwood say? "Every man has to know his limits."

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #16 – June 09, 2011, 06:18:04 am

To change a filter without mess: First loosen with your strap wrench. Then slip an adequate size Ziplock bag over the filter. Spin off filter, letting fluid flow into the bag. Dump fluid into your waste container. Seal Ziplock bag and dispose of properly. Voila! No mess!

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #17 – June 09, 2011, 08:56:13 am

Pierce, as usual thanks for the detailed instructions. I will call Orielly and Walmart today to see if they take old oil and fluids. I know I can do the lube stuff myself. I'm having some back problems right now and don't really want to tackle it but your tips for the future are appreciated.

I'm not too excited about the Official Detroit shop based on my first phone call and pricing but they are also the Allison shop so to get the lockup checked out I probably need to go to them. What is the real story about checking out the engine. One of the posts said the 6V92 doesn't have a rack as suggested by the Detroit shop quote. I'm wondering if the service guy just didn't know much about a 60 series engine. Should checking out a 60's engine be easier and therefore maybe less expensive?

Brett, your Ziplock bag suggestion is brilliant. I can't imagine why I hadn't thought of it.

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #18 – June 09, 2011, 09:13:21 am

I agree. the Ziploc bag technique is really great.

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #19 – June 09, 2011, 11:16:59 am

Kent,

Our engines started life back in 1937 with the 53 and 71 series. The 92 series came along in 1974. The numbers indicated how many cubic inches each cylinder has so just multiply the number by 53 or 71 or 92 depending on series. I just recently found out about the 8.2 fuel sipper engine. The 60 series started life in 1987 and like the 8.2 liter, it is a four cycle but shares nothing with our 2 cycle engines. Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel for a 10 minute read on the history of all the Detroit engines.

If anyone is interested, you can convert cubic inches to liters by going to Cubic Inches to Liters conversion calculator or just plugging this formula into a piece of paper and pencil: 1 cubic inches = 0.016387064 liters

With tighter emission controls, Detroit got rid of the racks and went with all electronic engine controls including the fuel injectors. This system is known as DDEC for Detroit Diesel Electronic Controls.

The 2 cycle engine had more than twice the number of parts and was very expensive to build especially when labor cost were factored in. The newer 60 series 4 cycle engines were a little easier to bring in compliance with new EPA emission standards.

So, finally getting to the other side of the bush, you need to find where Detroit 2 cycles live in your town. Buses, fire trucks, generators featured many 2 cycle Detroits. Amtrak buses made by Dina have the 92 series engines. Almost all Greyhounds and city buses were all Detroits at one time so you need to find guys that made the jump from the mechanical 92 series to the newer DDEC 92 series. This is a little harder as the 2 cycle is out of production and has been replaced by the 60 series 4 cycle engines. The test equipment is not that expensive, you just have to find a company or person that has it and knows what to do with it. So call around or better yet, stop in at engine machine shops, trucking, bus companies to get a lead on who to go to. The black art to making a Detroit run well is gone, at least for our engines. The computer/diagnostic guy reading the numbers is where its at now. Since the transmission is also computer controlled, he can read out temps, shifting points, etc. and also read out any stored codes in the computer. That is how Toyota found out the guy was faking the stuck throttle in Los Angeles in the Prius.

Why final drive ratio is so important: For every mile you go down the road, each piston has to travel so many feet up and down in it's cylinder. There is friction between part of the piston and rings and the cylinder walls. The less distance, the less friction. This goes for other engine parts as well and the energy it takes to spin them, etc. Lot of factors here like engine size, length of stroke, etc. but this is a pretty good rule of thumb: if you can go a mile, say at 2100 RPM (revolutions per minute here) and another guy with the same rig but lower numerical final drive ratio is only at 1900 RPM, he will generally use less fuel in that mile. The other term not to be confused is RPM meaning engine REVOLUTIONS PER MILE or can be expressed as piston feet traveled per mile.

I have noticed that my transmission temp is right with my engine temp when the trans is in lockup. You can see the intercooler underneath when you change oil. Around town at slow speeds, it climbs above the engine temp from the friction in the torque converter (that converts to heat). So, transmission lockup means less heat wasted with the savings translated into better MPG.

Hope I did not ramble on too much.

Always glad to discuss this stuff on phone.

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #20 – June 09, 2011, 01:37:15 pm

Love that big ziplock idea when spinning off the filter. Excellent tip. What a forum!

Quote from: amos.harrison – June 09, 2011, 06:18:04 am

To change a filter without mess: First loosen with your strap wrench. Then slip an adequate size Ziplock bag over the filter. Spin off filter, letting fluid flow into the bag. Dump fluid into your waste container. Seal Ziplock bag and dispose of properly. Voila! No mess!

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #21 – June 11, 2011, 10:15:57 pm

Kent, I'd suggest doing the bulk of the service yourself and find an honest to gosh specialty shop to. check/tweak the performance of your engine. They're around but probably not your local Detroit shop, they're going to be more up on the latest and greatest, will be frustrated when they can't find the diag port to plug the laptop into. Find a shop specializing in 2 strokes and they will make her sing and fuel correctly.

Just changed the oil first time on my coach. I could tell that it had last been done by a commercial shop because the hex head was somewhat rounded off on the drain plug. Spun a 6 point socket with a 2 foot breaker bar trying to remove it. Finally got it out with a pipe wrench, breaker bar and engineers. hammer providing impact shock, very little left of the head. Typical. Had I taken it to a commercial shop they would have nodded approvingly at the overtightened drain plug, inserted a vacuum sucker in dipstick tube and gotten out what they could before refilling.

Does Oklahoma not collect a surcharge on new oil sales to fund disposal? Thought it was standard pretty much everywhere.

Chuck

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #22 – June 11, 2011, 10:32:04 pm

Until recent hip problems I did my own service.
Last service I went to a small shop in the rear of a tire store that I have dealt with before. Made a deal with the owner, I would provide oil, filters, drain pan and free advice and he would charge me his hourly rate.
Cost me 75 Bucks , Young owner learned about MH's and possibly lined up a new source of revenue.
It never hurts to ask around.
Gary B

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #23 – June 11, 2011, 10:33:04 pm

Thanks again for the tips. Thanks to Pierce I may have found a local mechanic that says he is a whiz at two stroke diesels. From California, Pierce was smart enough to check OKC Craig's list where this guy was listed under services. It turns out he lives 9 miles from me and has 20 years experience with diesel engines and Allison transmissions. Currently he has his own diesel service company primarily for the oil fields. He is due to come out Monday an check for any problems.

I even checked with a local Turbo Diesel supply house for a reference to find a two stroke tuner. They know just about everyone in the OKC area that work on diesels. They kinda laughed and said there really isn't much to tune on a DDEC 6V92 and they did not know of anyone to recommend. I hope this new guy works out.

I still haven't checked on oil disposal but I'm guessing that the leads given in the foregoing posts will work out. But again, I am physically not able to do that work right now so I hope the local mechanic will be reasonably priced.

We shall see how this goes. I know he will be cheaper than the Detroit Shop.

Re: How Much to Spend for Service on U300

Reply #24 – June 11, 2011, 10:43:26 pm

Quote from: Gary Bouland – June 11, 2011, 10:32:04 pm

Until recent hip problems I did my own service.
Last service I went to a small shop in the rear of a tire store that I have dealt with before. Made a deal with the owner, I would provide oil, filters, drain pan and free advice and he would charge me his hourly rate.
Cost me 75 Bucks , Young owner learned about MH's and possibly lined up a new source of revenue.
It never hurts to ask around.
Gary B

Gary, that's creative thinking. Getting old really sucks but where there's a will there's a way. I hate paying others for work I can do but when you can no longer do the work and Steve lives too far away to con into doing it for you, you just have to pay someone else.

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