Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

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Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

July 23, 2011, 04:52:28 pm

My neighbor was walking around the front of his RV in the park yesterday, and something caused him to lose consciousness immediately. Lights out, down he went. No warning, nobody home. Good news is that he is surviving it with some help.

Got me thinking about the possibility of it happening to a FT driver with rig rolling.

What might be the best advice for the copilot? In the best scenario, copilot might be able step over, steer, brake, pull back the retarder.

Assuming here a situation in which the copilot cannot realistically do this - What might be the best advice for the copilot now?

Reach over and turn off ignition? What happens if you do that?

Get up and push Haldex parking brake control? What happens if you do that?

Maybe best advise comes from airlines - tighten seat belt, head on knees, hands on head?

Maybe some of you with relevant safety training can answer - and explain a bit so I and maybe others who are interested in this question can understand.

Thanks. Bob

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #1 – July 23, 2011, 05:05:42 pm

A very interesting question. It is not like a little car where the passenger can reach over and steer. Would it be a rational decision for the passenger to release the seat belt, stand up and try to control a huge coach with a limp body over the wheel and controls?

If I were the passenger, I think I would get up and try to regain control, but I am pretty strong physically, and pretty one-minded in emergencies (decisive or stupid depending on which way things go.)

oldMattB

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #2 – July 23, 2011, 05:24:21 pm

The easiest thing would be step on brake pedal HARD, sure seems easier and quicker than pulling park brake, pull retarder, turn off engine, pray or do a war dance. When you get it stopped, you can do what ever, parking brake, turn off and then you can pray.
FWIW

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #3 – July 23, 2011, 05:53:30 pm

What a great subject. These are things, although unpleasant, we should think about ahead of time.

My suggestion is if the traffic and situation allows, in other words not a lot of traffic or obstacles nearby, the passenger should get up and pull the driver back from the steering wheel, take control of the steering then get the drivers foot off of the accelerator. Let the coach roll to a stop if possible. Don't worry about the retarder, the parking brake or the air brakes unless braking is required to avoid a crash. Any rapid deceleration will make steering much more difficult and could cause other drivers to crash into the coach or each other. Just concentrate on safely steering the coach until is slows. Once it reaches a safe speed then worry about reaching the brake to stop the coach in a safe area. IMHO

I guess this is a best case scenario but many times we are not in heavy traffic so this scenario might be possible. But, we must follow the KISS principal if we are thinking ahead about what to do in this kind of emergency.

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #4 – July 23, 2011, 06:00:59 pm

Best thing is to get yourself familiar with ALL the controls NOW. Know how to apply the parking brake. It will stop the coach without throwing you through the windshield. Make sure the person does not have his or her foot on the throttle. In case you can't reach the parking brake, step on the brake pedal hard (the brake and the throttle look the same so try it out ahead of time) I would stop the coach straight ahead and not worry about traffic or turning unless you are about to go off the road or hit something. Once the coach has stopped, turn the key off and turn on the four way flashers. Call 911. Don't try to move the coach if you are not a driver. This could make a bad situation worse. Just leave it where it is and let the fire/police worry about it. You won't have time to do more than one thing so focus on that item ahead of time.

So, know what everything is in front of the driver and how to operate it in case you have to. Not a bad idea to practice what you would do in a big parking lot (empty).

Take a first aid/CPR class. An excellent idea for everyone. It could be 15 minutes or more before emergency responders can reach you.

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #5 – July 23, 2011, 07:15:45 pm

Appreciating the discussion.

Thinking a bit further on this, I'm thinking that the response of turning off engine as a first response pretty much eliminates the possibility of taking some control by steering. I'm a relatively big and strong person - and it took everything I had to wrestle our FT safely off the freeway and into a parking lot when the belt for our hydraulic steering assist broke. Same result likely if rolling with engine stopped I'm thinking. Any other negative consequences of turning off engine while rolling being a first response? Any comments about this?

Interesting to me to learn that the response of setting the Haldex parking brake while rolling would not immediately have the consequence of sending one through the windshield. Did I get this right?

Is the the thinking that using the retarder is a "later-on" rather than and "early-on" possible response? Are there any mechanical performance/consequence reasons for this?

And make sure your copilot's seat belt is fully functional. Is this as simple as it sounds?

Seems reasonable/adviseable/wise for copilot to learn about all available controls, to follow a generally preferred sequence of responses if conditions allow[/i] and to practice that sequence. Gain steering control first, then eliminate acceleration, then slow it down without compromising steering control, then lock it down. Keep it simple by concentrating on one thing at a time. Choose the best/safest response for you, and trust that other drivers will adjust. Easier to say.... the intensity of the moment....hence the recommendation for practice under controlled conditions. Knowing first aid makes so much sense too.

Bob

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #6 – July 23, 2011, 08:46:39 pm

Bob,

Parking brake on works on rear wheels and only with spring pressure. Watch the video, a real eye opener for a lot of folks: Bus Parking Brake vs. Service Brake application I try mine every so often with about the same result as the video. Have used the parking brake on a lot of apparatus with some a little better some worse but nothing even close to locking up the rears on pavement.

My response to a driver emergency was through the eyes of someone that had no experience driving one of these RV or any vehicle in an emergency. For a non-driver, seeing a loved one passed out over the wheel and responding quickly and correctly is asking a lot even in the best of conditions. From the time they notice it happen and just get their seat belt off may already be too late. One of us more experienced drivers would have a hard enough time getting over to the driver and getting things in order before the coach hit someone or ran off the road. Naturally, the event could unfold much slower but you know how far a coach travels in one second.

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #7 – July 23, 2011, 09:21:47 pm

Pierce, what concerns me about using the parking brake is that your coach speed will be rapidly dropping without any brake lights so if there is other traffic in near proximity behind you your deceleration will probably cause other casualties. Having the passenger just concentrate on steering while slowly decelerating will be the safest and most natural response. I recommend getting the drivers foot off of the accelerator and steer to safety as a primary response.

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #8 – July 23, 2011, 10:06:44 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – July 23, 2011, 09:21:47 pm

Pierce, what concerns me about using the parking brake is that your coach speed will be rapidly dropping without any brake lights so if there is other traffic in near proximity behind you your deceleration will probably cause other casualties. Having the passenger just concentrate on steering while slowly decelerating will be the safest and most natural response. I recommend getting the drivers foot off of the accelerator and steer to safety as a primary response.

A lot to assume that there would be traffic close behind, would not be able to see a big coach stopping and would then hit it causing injuries. How about in a turn with a guard rail close by or worse yet, no guard rail? Imagine you are sitting in the copilot's seat when you start to notice you are heading off the road. You look over and see the driver over the wheel, unconscious. Now, don't think like Kent but someone in an absolute panic with a huge amount a adrenalin flowing. Hey, it's probably too late now but lets start counting seconds. Only took 5 seconds but at 3 we hit the center divider.

I do hear exactly what you are saying and agree it could possibly cause someone to run into the back. I would rather someone hit me from behind than run into someone in front with a 30,000 pound motorhome. An airbag deployed behind is a lot better than a car(s) crushed in front. A lot to assume that you could get over to the drivers seat and steer it. We have both been trained to respond in emergencies in our jobs and a lot of this stuff is second nature to us. I have no doubt we could "save the day" IF we had time. So many people cannot dial 911 in an emergency, can't remember where they live, etc. You know what 911 tapes sound like. Sure, if they have their head on, steer over to the side, etc., etc. but in a sudden collapse, you have two chances, zero and less than zero in most cases of that happening. That's why the #1 item for a person in a panic is not to look at the road, their spouse or figure the options but know how to hit the brakes. Not too likely the foot would be on the gas but yes, get if off if on. Anything else is gravy. Time and reason are not on their side.

The defense rests it's case.

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #9 – July 23, 2011, 10:43:56 pm

Keep it simple folks !

1-Press the hold button immediately.
2-After you have checked with your lawyer and others, feel free to proceed.
3-Pull the hold Button and hang on.

Other considerations, think about the difficulty of getting to the parking brake knob, with driver across wheel and position of the brake button for example.

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #10 – July 23, 2011, 10:59:30 pm

Quite right Dave. It's a pretty good stretch over there especially over someone. I've always had it between the seats on driver's right. Time to deploy the chute. You DID spoil the fun.

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #11 – July 23, 2011, 11:04:16 pm

The reason Dave is having so much fun with this is that he drives alone.

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #12 – July 23, 2011, 11:10:33 pm

Spouse and I both drive, but I doubt that either could function well while screaming and soiling clothing.

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #13 – July 24, 2011, 12:48:49 am

Grave matter, isn't it. Dead certain....that there are too many human and mechanical and situational variables to resurrect a one-fits-all answer... and the humor kills me...

But thanks everyone. I have appreciated the helpfulness of those responses that addressed my need to know what my copilot (DW) could possibly actually do that would help keep the FT under some kind of control. My copilot (DW) has limited response-ability, and I wanted to uncover any concrete knowledge/skills that I had not considered, but which I could pass to her, that might help her survive if I were the driver in this scenario. If you can provide any more insight/advice, love to get it.

You all might have helped some future reader too. Thanks.

In our case, best thing might be to try to control what I can: keep rig and self healthy - drive right - park myself when I know better than to keep going - and keep the DW buckled up tight - especially when we are travelling ... Thank God she has a good sense of humor....and 40 years of medical experience.

Bob

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #14 – July 24, 2011, 11:09:59 am

Bob, this was a very good point of discussion and you hit the nail on the head. Stay healthy and pull over if your not feeling well.

One important point that came from this discussion that I hadn't really thought about was DON'T TURN OFF THE KEY, unless the incapacitated driver has the coach floored and you can't get their foot off of the accelerator. You would loose too many of the operating functions with the key off. I think we all agree with that one.

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #15 – July 24, 2011, 11:49:10 am

One other consideration that I haven't seen mentioned is the possibility that the driver, when he became incapacitated, was driving with the cruise control engaged. If that is the case then the copilot MUST find the brake peddle or the cancel button.
Paul
36' 2000 U320

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #16 – July 24, 2011, 03:40:15 pm

Given the risks, I'm not comfortable counseling the co-pilot to even take off her seat belt. Better to stay put?

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #17 – July 24, 2011, 04:12:39 pm

I don't know how many of us share the driving with our wives, but I am one of the lucky guys and have a wife who likes to drive. We pretty much divide the driving equally. We men are not the only ones who can drop dead in an instant. I knew a woman who dropped dead of an aneurysm in the grocery store.

This has been an important topic as it has forced my wife and me to think through what each of us would do if the unthinkable ever happens. What was that phone number for Mike Rodgers again??

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #18 – July 24, 2011, 04:52:25 pm

I got it.
We need to install a heavy spring loaded plunger over the brake pedal, the spring should have 150 lb force that would apply to the brake pedal, and to trip it, have a lanyard for the co driver to release simply by pulling on the lanyard, tripping the spring loaded plunger. This will release the cruise and activate the retarder plus apply heavy brakes at the same time. Bingo, all from the safety of the passenger seat while buckled in.

If this does not sound good, have the co driver jump into the refrig, that might be safe.

Smile

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #19 – July 24, 2011, 07:57:26 pm

I would think gaining steering control would be paramount. That said, one thing you don't want to do is shut off the ignition - then you would loose power steering. The heavier the front axle the harder it is to steer without power. At CC they had a real problem with the late model magnas that had a 20K lbs. front axle. They had to add a master/slave power steering box to generate the required power. It also was just about unsteerable in an engine-out situation.

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #20 – July 24, 2011, 08:51:32 pm

One item to add to the list: PRAY!!

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #21 – July 29, 2011, 08:01:08 pm

After reading and thinking about this, it seems that the passenger only has 2 choices; stay in the seat with the belt fastened, or unbuckle and try to brake and steer. Already off the road maybe better to stay in the seat. A spit second decision. Forget about the retarder, parking/emergency brake, someone behind, etc. all that can be done after you are stopped. In an emergency we don't always react like we should or choose the best course of action. Good to think about it in advance, so this thread has been helpful.

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #22 – July 29, 2011, 08:39:50 pm

I wonder if there would be a way to incorporate a "kill" switch by the passenger seat that would override and down shift the transmission so there would be an immediate reduction in speed and thru use of a timer(?) apply the brakes?

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #23 – July 29, 2011, 09:04:23 pm

We as drivers of large rigs owe it to ourselves and others to be in better than average health in order to be on the road not causing potential hazzards to others. What is it they say about an ounce of prevention?

Eventhough we are not commercial drivers, each one of us needs to take an annual physical to ensure a good level of health and physical function. Know your health history as well as your family's in order to ensure you monitor those health indications carefully. So what if there is no copilot with you?

Re: Emergency Stopping When Rolling - What Can CoPilot Do?

Reply #24 – July 29, 2011, 09:21:35 pm

Quote from: Jerry Whiteaker – July 29, 2011, 08:01:08 pm

After reading and thinking about this, it seems that the passenger only has 2 choices; stay in the seat with the belt fastened, or unbuckle and try to brake and steer. Already off the road maybe better to stay in the seat. A spit second decision. Forget about the retarder, parking/emergency brake, someone behind, etc. all that can be done after you are stopped. In an emergency we don't always react like we should or choose the best course of action. Good to think about it in advance, so this thread has been helpful.

I've been thinking this might be something for FT to consider adding to the Ladies' Driving School curriculum. Not actually going through the complete actions, but talking about the importance of knowing where the critical controls are and what the passenger might do in an emergency. There are some couples who attend those classes who aren't members of ForeForums and wouldn't have read this thought-provoking discussion.

Michelle

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