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Topic: Engine and Gen on when fueling?? (Read 1023 times) previous topic - next topic

Engine and Gen on when fueling??

John S brought up a good question for me as I have done both when fueling/ turn the engine off and turn gen off and I have left both on.  Wife likes it left on in this heat.  I would rather have it on if it is a short fuel stop.  I turn it off if I have to enter the cards four times with gen running.  Gives me a chance to walk around the coach and ck things. Any advice as not to leave running.  DAN
Dan & Shirley Stansel
2002 U295 4020 AGDS Build#6054
Towing Buick Enclave & M &  G Braking
Emerald Bay, Lake Palestine, Texas
MC# 16650

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #1 –
This is really a safety issue.  And, yes, part some of the answers can fall into the " what I got away with" vs "preferred procedure".

Basically, ignition sources should NOT be operated when fueling.  These include engine, generator, refrigerator on propane, propane water heater, aqua-hot/hydra-hot, etc.

This is much more of an issue if you are fueling where gasoline is present vs just diesel pumps.  It really does no matter if you are pumping gasoline or diesel, as the guy next to you may spill gasoline that can be ignited by your ignition source.

There is a reason that all gas stations have a "turn off engine before fueling" warning.

Brett
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #2 –
Brett: Makes you think a little about this as the truckers leave their engine running but they are in the diesel only area.  We fill where there is gas being filled just on the other side of the pump, so we must be aware of our surroundings.  My refrigerator will go to propane when I shut the gen off.  I always have the hotwater heater off when traveling. Good practice to shut down when at the auto pumps. It only takes small spark for gas to ignite.  Tks DAN
Dan & Shirley Stansel
2002 U295 4020 AGDS Build#6054
Towing Buick Enclave & M &  G Braking
Emerald Bay, Lake Palestine, Texas
MC# 16650

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #3 –
The KEY Word is "Spark",  a starter solenoid, any solenoid, contactor, ignition on refrig or water heater, Zippo lighter or match being struck.    A flame is not as quick to ignite vapors as a Spark.
FWIW

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #4 –
I've posted concerning this on other sites until I was blue in the face.  And Dave M. got it right - The key word is SPARK.  The codes concerning how fueling stations and gas stations are written by the National Fire Protection Association, Boston, Ma.  These codes are adapted by states, counties, and communities across the country and they are all about preventing the SPARK, no matter what its source.  My job as a petroleum transportation truck driver took me into lots of service stations and other pertroleum facilities, and one could say that I have seen it all!!!  All the bad habits and bad practices that can be performed at  gas/fuel stations or truck stops.  Today I do not hang out at the fuel pumps any longer than I have to.  The refrigerator is turned off before I pull up to the pumps.  Anything else that could cause a spark is also turned off before pulling up to the pumps.  And if you decide that these codes do not apply to you, please don't do it around me!  Figure I'm on borrowed time already, considering Vietnam, the Cold War and my related job, and over 20 years being around petroleum refineries, gas stations, jet fuel, and other neat stuff.  That includes one refinery which had a brand new unit explode while I was right next to it.

Here is a interesting document that the NFPA put out concerning  FIRES AT U.S. SERVICE STATIONS:
www.nfpa.org/assets/files//PDF/OS.ServiceStations.pdf.  One of the reported fires prior to that report was when my tractor's starter shorted out all by itself after I got done unloading a load of gas.  I was getting my paperwork signed when a customer came running in and screaming "Your gas truck is on fire"!  I had it out before the fire department got there.  But then I had to wait 4 hours for a company mechanic to show up  to fix things up.  Coach Net has always been faster!!!  But one of the Cummins shops they took me to took 3 days to discover a broke fan belt!!
1994 U225
build #4514

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #5 –
How many times have you filled your car and another one pulls right up behind you. It is only 8 feet from my pickup and 2 feet from the Tahoe fill point.  Now in my FT the engine is 20 or feet behind and the genset is about 20 feet in front of my fill point.  There is more risk from another vehicle than mine.  I use the truck side so there is very little reason for gas to spill.  I do shut off the jeep or the pickup when filling gas.  I think filling propane is a different issue as that is closer to the engine and a heat source. 

So, for what it is worth I have not seen a sign to shut off my engine on the truck side that you see plastered all over the gas and car and RV fuel islands either. 

Maybe it is wrong but I feel that it is an acceptable risk.  I have done it this way for years.  I usually use the fuel stop as a dog walk stop too so I idle while doing that too. Takes a few mins but not a big deal either. I am in the lot though so you could have a flame or a spill...
2025 Wanderbox Outpost 32 on F600 Expedition Motorhome
2015 Born Free Royal Splendor on Ford 550 nonslide version  for sale
Former Coaches  covering. 360,000 miles
1999 34 U270
2000 36 U320
2001 42' double slide U320
2018 Jeep Rubicon

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #6 –
Quote from: John S –
How many times have you filled your car and another one pulls right up behind you. It is only 8 feet from my pickup and 2 feet from the Tahoe fill point.  Now in my FT the engine is 20 or feet behind and the genset is about 20 feet in front of my fill point.  There is more risk from another vehicle than mine.  I use the truck side so there is very little reason for gas to spill.  I do shut off the jeep or the pickup when filling gas.  I think filling propane is a different issue as that is closer to the engine and a heat source. 

So, for what it is worth I have not seen a sign to shut off my engine on the truck side that you see plastered all over the gas and car and RV fuel islands either. 

Maybe it is wrong but I feel that it is an acceptable risk.  I have done it this way for years.  I usually use the fuel stop as a dog walk stop too so I idle while doing that too. Takes a few mins but not a big deal either. I am in the lot though so you could have a flame or a spill...
But you don't even need to be near the gas pumps.  The stations gas tanks have vent pipe which has a pressure valve on the top.  Today the vapors are sucked back into the delivering transport.  But that system does not always work and when it doesn't, the vapors go up in the air, and depending on weather conditions are held down low.  Now these vent pipes can be anywhere on the facility.  I was delivering gas on 4th of July (great time and a half pay) and kept hearing fireworks .  Looked around a bit and here were kids throwing fire crackers up a the vents over by the property barrier fencing.  This was before the vapor recovery law.  I never volunteered to work the 4th again.

And those gas fumes - if they get sucked into your diesel's intake, they can make your diesel run away and self destruct by over-revving.

And combustible liquid (diesel) not being flammable.  That is all about the flash point.  With a high enough flash point it will burn all by itself.  I use to deliver to a GAF roofing plant.  The fumes from the liquid asphalt (combustible liquid) are burned of with no help from any flammable material.  It put off a very nice 3 foot high flame which burned continuously.
1994 U225
build #4514

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #7 –
OMG.      I think I am going to start turning off the fridge.
Carol & Jeff Savournin
Usta have a '93 U225 36', Usta have a '95 U320 40', Usta have a '02 U320 40'
Usta have a 2006 Born Free, Usta have a 2011 Phoenix Cruiser
Usta have a 2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 4dr
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life."  Steve Jobs

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #8 –
Generally, you can drop a cigarette into a pool of gasoline and the gas just puts the cigarette out but put a spark or open flame into the equation and with the right mixture, bang.

We usually go for the least expensive fuel in the neighborhood along with everyone else so many times the pump aisles are jammed with cars trying to get to the pumps. All it takes is someone backing into a pump (auto shutoff may not work), spilling, etc. and you could be in the middle of a pool of gas.

Modern RV appliances are so easy to relight that shutting everything down, fueling and then moving your rig BEFORE going into the store is good common sense. No need to worry about it but to be aware, minumize your exposure and fuel accordingly.
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart –
Generally, you can drop a cigarette into a pool of gasoline and the gas just puts the cigarette out but put a spark or open flame into the equation and with the right mixture, bang.

We usually go for the least expensive fuel in the neighborhood along with everyone else so many times the pump aisles are jammed with cars trying to get to the pumps. All it takes is someone backing into a pump (auto shutoff may not work), spilling, etc. and you could be in the middle of a pool of gas.

Modern RV appliances are so easy to relight that shutting everything down, fueling and then moving your rig BEFORE going into the store is good common sense. No need to worry about it but to be aware, minumize your exposure and fuel accordingly.

I am not going to disagree that modern appliances are easy to light but I am many hundreds of yards away from the fuel tanks and pipes usually.  In fact the bigger truck stops I stop at have 10 to 20 truck lanes.  I guess I am willing to live iwth the risk of not shutting things down.  I will not say you have to do it my way either but it is how I do it and have for ten years. I remember as a kid no one shut down their car filling up either. We see more cell phones cause fires than running engines.  In fact my engine and fridge is further from the pumps thanthe cars that drive in and out. We all drive up to the pump, cars shut down and then start up and the cars are three of four deep around the pumps on both sides. I would say that is the risk and not my DP engine idling 20 feet behind them.
2025 Wanderbox Outpost 32 on F600 Expedition Motorhome
2015 Born Free Royal Splendor on Ford 550 nonslide version  for sale
Former Coaches  covering. 360,000 miles
1999 34 U270
2000 36 U320
2001 42' double slide U320
2018 Jeep Rubicon

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #10 –
Agree the risk is slight and if fueling at truck stops, I don't shut off appliances or generator if running air. I have responded to a gas station fire so the thought is always there. '70s era VWs were always good for one big fire a year in mall parking lots and usually took the cars on both sides with them.

Burns are about the worst injury you can have. Only a couple of seconds exposure to enough of your skin and its "game over" in a really terrible way.

Propane fueling is another thing. I shut everything down and get everyone including the dog out while getting a fill.

How about the gas station fire in "The Birds"? Loved it along with the birds into the phone booth.
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #11 –
Many moons ago when I worked as an aircraft mechanic, I occasionally fueled aircraft. The very first thing you did when you pulled up in the fuel truck was grab the clip for the grounding wire, unroll the spool, and connected the clip to a bare metal part of the aircraft. The truck, in turn, had numerous chains hanging off the frame which provided a connection to earth.

Just touching the fuel nozzle to the fuel tank inlet without a ground lead could generate a static spark, and it would over very quickly (130 octane aromatic fuel vapors burn very quickly).

It amazed me that this wasn't required with cars when fuelling. I later learned that tire manufacturers began incorporating more carbon into the tires some years ago to provide a grounding path for the vehicle to minimize the possibilities of a static spark being generated when fueling.

Now diesel isn't as volatile, but just the same I always shut everything off whether loading up with diesel or propane. Old habits die hard, I guess. And better safe than sorry.

Steve
1991 U225 Grand Villa

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Merle Hench –
tire manufacturers began incorporating more carbon into the tires some years ago to provide a grounding path for the vehicle to minimize the possibilities of a static spark being generated when fueling.
Nasty, nasty, stuff.  Worse that asphalt.  You just look at the stuff and it gets all over you.  Carbon black is a refining by-product, and I got to haul it once in a while.  Would much rather haul Av Gas or Jet A.  Both were so much cleaner.  And yes, old habits die hard!  And glad that they do.
1994 U225
build #4514

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #13 –
Years ago, I led a team to investigate the effects on power and industrial facilities of the large March 3, 1985 8.0 magnitude earthquake in Chile. There was a lot of damage, bridges destroyed, everyone was terrified to sleep indoors. Fortunately, this was the last Sunday of Summer and many Chileans were out of doors when the earthquake hit - so the death toll was much less than it otherwise would have been.

We arrived the Thursday after the earthquake (and were greeted by a 7.2m earthquake) and rented a helicopter for the next day (US$2500) to quickly get to as many power and industrial sites as possible. We returned to get details over the following two weeks.

The pilot had the helicopter refueled at each stop.

At a stop at a hydro dam in the mountains they refueled and then accidentally left the ignition on (or left on whatever it is called in a chopper) and depleted the chopper battery.

They then rounded up a battery from a Cat D8. I saw them holding the wires from the battery to the chopper nose by hand. I feared sparks, etc, on a newly fueled chopper and backed away saying to myself, "I know how this ends. I've seen it on CHIPs many times."

Fortunately, no fire or explosion.

We were late, though, and "enjoyed" a night flight to Santiago.

At an earlier stop the pilot landed within the perimeter of a large refinery. I knew we were in trouble when I saw security with weapons chasing us as we landed. The refinery had been heavily damaged and they were concerned the helicopter would start a fire (because of all the hydrocarbon venting the whole place could go up). We engineers disembarked and the pilot took off and landed off site. We showed our documents to the plant manager and he was happy to show us around....

I've done earthquake safety walkdowns in refineries and nuclear power plants. Refineries scare me much more than nuclear power plants.....

Quote
Many moons ago when I worked as an aircraft mechanic, I occasionally fueled aircraft.
1999 U320 40' 1200 watts on roof. 12cf AC/DC Cold plate fridge/freezer. VMS 240 CL Honda Element

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #14 –
I always said, graphite and being pregnant. No such thing as a little bit.

best, paul
Quote
> Nasty, nasty, stuff. Worse that asphalt. You just look at the stuff and it gets all over you.
1999 U320 40' 1200 watts on roof. 12cf AC/DC Cold plate fridge/freezer. VMS 240 CL Honda Element

Re: Engine and Gen on when fueling??

Reply #15 –
Years ago we were working as consultants inspecting engineering work at a number of gas stations.  At one, in a disadvantaged area in Flint MI, a gentleman pulled in and filled an old junk car.  As he pulled away the fuel tank dropped to the ground.  He got out and looked underneath despite the copious amounts of gasoline flowing around him!  He finally took the advise of the disembodied voices from behind a pump (us) yelling RUN.  We hit the emergency shut off and told the attendant, who was upset we had done so, to call the fire dept in no uncertain terms.

You never know what may happen.  Turn everything off.

Keith
Keith, Joyce & Smokey the Australian Cattle Dog
1995 U320 SE Extreme 40' WTBI Build # 4780, with a Honda CR-V hopefully still following behind.
Motorcade # 17030
FMCA # F422159