Dead house batteries

Topic: Dead house batteries (Read 1579 times) previous topic - next topic

Dead house batteries

August 07, 2011, 01:25:10 pm

Got up this morning and my relatively new house batteries are dead. Start battery is fine although turning the start key results in silence instead of starting. Checked at the battery and showing 7.79v for the house and 12.56v for the starting. I'm connected to shore power and all the 120v works.

I pulled the cover on the tranfer switch and exercised it by disconnecting and reconnecting the shore power. Looks like it is functioning correctly and voltage at batteries did not change. Hummm... Will battery voltage change if charging or will it show the current voltage of the batteries?

I suspect the Converter/Charger (Parallax Power Componets 775). When I check the voltage on the red & black I show 12.56v. Shouldn't that be 13 or 14v to charge?

I checked all of the weird 12v fuses in the bay and didn't find any tripped.

I'm pretty much lost as to what to check next. Any help appreciated!

I'm including 3 pics. 1st is the battery bay. 2nd is the voltage off the house battery. 3rd is voltage off the Parrallax (red & black wire). Also in the 3rd pic there is what looks like a solenoid (silver film can looking thing) I get 12.56v of the left side and 7.79v off the right side. FWIW...

From reading the other posts this morning it looks like the electron gremlins where out last night!

see ya
ken

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #1 – August 07, 2011, 02:11:16 pm

Ken,

Let's start with what it is NOT. Since other appliances such as roof A/C worked, the ATS and 120 VAC to the breaker panel are just fine.

A reading of 12.5 VDC at the converter IS a problem. Start by verifying that you have 120 VAC to the outlet into which the converter is plugged. If you have power there, but converter output is 12.5, time to troubleshoot the converter or replace it.

Brett

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #2 – August 07, 2011, 02:55:28 pm

Brett, isn't it possible that a bad battery or batteries could be drawing down the voltage?

Ken, I would start by disconnecting both the house and starting batteries. Check the voltage of the inverter/charger without any batteries pulling it down. Then check each battery bank while disconnected from the system and note the voltages. You may also want to disconnect each battery and check the individual battery voltage and post the results on the forum. There are a number of smart folks that can analyze what to check next from that information.

I think the film can thing is the boost switch.

I am having some confusing voltage issues myself. As soon as I get a chance I am going to disconnect all of the batteries, the boost switch, the inverter/charger and the isolater one item at a time to see what is connected to what. My intent is diagram the system and record the voltage at each contact point. The goal is to determine why the starting and the house batteries are being charged together even when the boost switch is not on and to find out why I seem to have low voltage under the dash affecting the accuracy of the gauges.

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #3 – August 07, 2011, 03:17:44 pm

Before you do a lot of work check each coach battery by it's self. one shorted cell is all it takes!
How old are the coach batteries?

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #4 – August 07, 2011, 04:13:57 pm

Kent:
I assume that the voltage for the dash is supplied by the engine batteries.
See if you can locate the feed line from the engine batteries to the dash and see what size wire is used. Then check the voltage at the beginning of the wire and at the end to determine the voltage drop. I would then check it with various power items turned on, such as A/C, Heater, Headlights, etc... The source wire is most likely over 50' long and probably has a BIG voltage drop.
Regarding the Boost switch, you may find that the solenoid is internally welded in the boost position due to a high current at some point. Easy to check, and it does happen.

Regards,
Jon Twork

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #5 – August 07, 2011, 04:41:32 pm

Don't over look the point that was mentioned, turning the start key was met with silence too, or did I read that wrong ?

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #6 – August 07, 2011, 04:45:27 pm

#$%@ing internet started working again finally! Chief Hosa campground I love you but your internet sucks!

Thanks for the quick replies everyone.

Brett: Voltage at the socket for the converter/charger is at 130v.

Kent: Disconnected all batteries retested voltage from converter/charger still at 12.57v. I remembered I had jumper cables so started the car and hooked up the cables and let it run for about 20 minutes. Then remembered I had my charger at the house. Duh! Ran home got that and hooked it up. It ran about 20 minutes before I was able to get online and read your advise. So the voltages I got are a lot better then the 7.7v I was getting with the batteries combined. Here are the volts from left to right. 11.95v, 12.09v, 12.27v I'm not sure how useful that is at the moment.

John: The batteries where replaced at FOT in early June.

Jon: The boost switch was replaced at FOT in early June also. Not to say it couldn't have failed since then. I'll test once I have the batteries charged.

For the moment I'm charging batteries individually to make sure they take and hold a charge. I'm not sure what my next step will be. I'm taking the coach in to the shop for some engine work tomorrow and my main concern is that I can get it started. Charging the batteries with my charger should take care of that.

Right now I think the evidence is pointing to the converter/charger. What do you guys think? If so do you have any recommendations for a new one? Camping World has the Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power and CW is just down the hill from me. Anyone have any experience with it? Pros/Cons?

Any other advice still welcome! Thanks for all the replies.

see ya
ken

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #7 – August 07, 2011, 04:52:29 pm

Dave: Thanks for bringing that up. That doesn't make sense to my feble brain. Even with the house batteries completely dead the start battery had 12v so the engine should at least turn over! Would a stuck boost cause this? But if I had a stuck boost I would think the start battery would have drained with the house batteries. Any thoughts??

Once I have the batteries charged and everything put back together I'll try and start. Here's hoping that works!

see ya
ken

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #8 – August 07, 2011, 05:13:26 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – August 07, 2011, 02:55:28 pm

Brett, isn't it possible that a bad battery or batteries could be drawing down the voltage?

Absolutely, but the first symptom of a converter charging a battery with a bad cell is severe overcharging of the remaining good cells as the converter is trying to charge a 10 VDC battery at the same voltage as if it were a 12 VDC battery. And 13.5 VDC into a 10 VDC battery produces severe outgassing and overheating of the battery. If the batteries are not hot, swollen or outgassing, I would start by looking at why the converter is not putting out properly.

Brett

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #9 – August 07, 2011, 05:18:33 pm

Quote from: kenhat – August 07, 2011, 04:45:27 pm

/snip/
Camping World has the Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power and CW is just down the hill from me. Anyone have any experience with it? Pros/Cons?

Any other advice still welcome! Thanks for all the replies.

see ya
ken

Ken,

Over the years I've read good stuff about Magnum invertor/converters. But I'm way out of my comfort zone here.

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #10 – August 07, 2011, 05:26:00 pm

What type of new house batteries were installed? Gel batteries require a 'smart' charger that can control voltages. Coaches like yours have converters that cannot safely charge gel batteries.

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #11 – August 07, 2011, 05:41:35 pm

Berry: I asked about gels' but was told we would have to change out other equipment blah, blah, blah so we just went with the cheap ass wet cells that FOT had. Deka 708D's

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #12 – August 07, 2011, 06:05:08 pm

Suspect wet cell batteries destroyed by old converter/charger. I can't believe at this point that any reliable MH repair facility would sell anyone batteries without a charger check and a warning. Been there myself. I was trying to be cautious and charging for 24 hours once a month but I think my one week vacation in a campground allowed the old stupid charger to cook the batteries even with heavy use of the 12v systems. Went to AGM batteries and a PD smart charger with charge wizard. No battery issues since.

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #13 – August 07, 2011, 07:07:38 pm

Put everything back together and it started right up!

When I reconnected the batteries I started with the start battery. When I did I heard the propane alarm go off and when I went into the coach the fridge was back on. Are these normally run off the start battery? Would make some sense since you want the alarm to be powered even if the house batteries die. Same for fridge I guess depends on if you value your food more than getting home!

I'm convinced it's the converter/charger that's the issue. I'll be ordering the Inteli-Power 80 Amp Converter/Charger tomorrow. I checked around the internet and found it at Progress Dynamics for $213. CW wants $374 for the same thing!

Dwayne: My next set of batteries will be AGM's. Thanks for the info.

see ya
ken

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #14 – August 07, 2011, 07:18:43 pm

Quote from: kenhat – August 07, 2011, 04:45:27 pm

Camping World has the Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power and CW is just down the hill from me. Anyone have any experience with it? Pros/Cons?

if you check around, you can get much better prices than Camping Worlds. All reviews say that they do what they are suppose to do, provided you get the smart charge wizard. Their customer service is good. You have to put on a jumper connector to properly charge gel batteries. their customer service will send you instructions.

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #15 – August 07, 2011, 11:44:08 pm

The propane alarm is powered from both batteries. Whenever I disconnect them both and reconnect either, I get the propane alarm. My alarm also sounded for no reason when the batteries became very low. The propane alarm, though not designed as such, is kind of a low battery warning in many motorhomes I believe.

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #16 – August 08, 2011, 07:44:56 am

Make sure you get the little 'Charge Wizard' plug in controller with it.

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #17 – August 08, 2011, 09:30:14 am

I have the PD9180 installed in my SOB for several years. It worked so well ( with the Charge Wizard) that I purchase another for my '93 U300
It has done a great job so far (2 years)

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #18 – August 08, 2011, 09:36:54 am

Dave, Bill: Thanks for the input!

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #19 – August 08, 2011, 10:15:33 am

Ken, I agree it sure sounds like its the converter.

If you order the PD over the internet with a price that much lower than Camping World, make darn sure it has the charge wizard included. Sometimes brands offer the same model with or without the charge wizard. That little difference is the reason for the much lower price.

I chose an Iota DLS90 amp with IQ4 for my 93, U225 from bestconverters.com, but if Bill and Dave chose the PD, I would have full confidence in their recommendation and it less expensive.

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #20 – August 08, 2011, 11:04:34 am

Ordered the PD this morning from PD. $213 + $32 for the wizard. PatC pointed me to a dealer on eBay that was a little cheaper but I didn't see it until I had already ordered.

Oh well it was only a few dollars more...

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #21 – August 08, 2011, 06:26:43 pm

Doesn't it pay to consider a charger/inverter, like Magnum or Xantrex have to replace a converter? Not hard to run a second Romex cable to automatically power motorhome outlets with the inverter or shore/gen. These are great battery chargers and it seems that this would be a nice upgrade.

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #22 – August 09, 2011, 11:47:22 am

Berry: charger/inverter would have been a good option and will consider it down the road. The down side is that it's a bit more money and not as plug and play as just replacing the converter/charger plus I have a perfectly good 1200w inverter already that I rarely use. Maybe when I do the residential fridge upgrade (like you did) it will make more sense for me.

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #23 – August 09, 2011, 05:32:19 pm

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – August 08, 2011, 06:26:43 pm

Doesn't it pay to consider a charger/inverter, like Magnum or Xantrex have to replace a converter? Not hard to run a second Romex cable to automatically power motorhome outlets with the inverter or shore/gen. These are great battery chargers and it seems that this would be a nice upgrade.

I'm not ready to run out and purchase one of these just yet, but I am curious about inverters and their application in a MH such as mine. I have 2 8D batteries in my GV. One is engine, one is house. Does an inverter even make sense when you only have one 8D house battery to power the entire 120V system? I would think the use case would be severely limited with this type of set up?

Re: Dead house batteries

Reply #24 – August 09, 2011, 05:44:30 pm

Benji, I am running a 3000 watt inverter/charger with two 8D batteries with no problems. I can run the satellite and two tv's, use the coffee pot in the morning and the microwave for short periods without recharging the batteries. 3000 watts is overkill for what I need but it was there when I bought the coach. A 1200 or 1500 watt inverter would be perfect for coffee and a warm bagel in the morning in the Walmart parking lot and one 8D used judiciously should be fine. A second 8D would be even better if you have the room for it.

In my 93, U225 I used to carry one 8D as a primary house battery and one 4D as a backup (used and charged individually)along with my two starting batteries in the battery compartment. I never did run the 8D down so much that I needed to use the 4D backup.

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