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Topic: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ... (Read 1049 times) previous topic - next topic

Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

We are presently in Santa Fe at the Hal Burns Truck Repair, continuing our search for the solution to the "bucking" and "coughing" that is plaguing our engine. We first experienced it when we began to hit some altitude in Colorado ... the coach ran fine from Nac to the beginnings of our climb into the mountains, but every time we started uphill it began to choke and buck. We suspected contaminated fuel, as the coach had probably sat all winter in Texas before going onto the consignment lot at MOT and the inspection had run out in Jan'11.  We added biocide, and as soon as we found a mechanic we changed out all the fuel filters and the air filter.  It was better, but still had problems under load. Our mechanic here at Hal Burns has examined the elec system, cleaned and checked several corroded connections, and checked the fuel output from the pump and also the vacuum lines. Everything cleared up when he bypassed the "fuel heater", which is a contraption attached to the Winn2020 clear filter and the first fuel filter right at the back of the engine. There was a minimal amount of some kind of sediment in the Winn2020, so he removed the fuel heater to disassemble it and see if there was a blockage. The automatic water sensor that is part of all of this was not plugged in, and apparently had not been for some time. The internal fuel pump that is part of the fuel heater does test as operational, but the electronic sending unit that should be giving is power is not operating, thereby creating an impediment for the fuel!  We are replacing that unit with a different fuel/water separator that will eliminate the fuel heater and Winn2020 and simplify things. We do not intend to ever be in Canada or North Dakota in January ... and even if we were, I do not think there will be an issue.  Meanwhile, I am watching them clear the remnants of mud and flood out of their parking lot with a Kubota tractor/loader that belongs to Val Kilmer!  He brings his ranch trucks and equip here for service. Wish he was here doing the work!! 

Has anyone else removed this fuel heater? Is there any downside to eliminating this that we have not thought of? Our mechanic is of the opinion that within a fairly short period of time (45 minutes) all the fuel has been recirculated and warmed without the heater, and we will never notice the difference.
Carol & Jeff Savournin
Usta have a '93 U225 36', Usta have a '95 U320 40', Usta have a '02 U320 40'
Usta have a 2006 Born Free, Usta have a 2011 Phoenix Cruiser
Usta have a 2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 4dr
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life."  Steve Jobs

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #1
Carol, This is a wild guess, the 02 ISM 450 was the first year for the EGR valve, (another EPA gimmic). They have a history of issues, erratic runnng, loss of power, even smoking.  As said, its a guess, but you might suggest it as a question to your mechanic.
Good luck

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #2
Carol,
Have you met up with Steve and Michelle yet?  Rumor is that Michelle is an expert Tamale maker now since she has graduated from Tamale school. 

Tom & Bill

2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #3
Part 2,
I would not remove the fuel heater, Cummins spent the time and money to have it there, I know a lot of local mechanics think they are brighter than the factory, I disagree.  Please keep the engine in Cummins configuration, you will be a lot happier. This is a computer engine, not subject to a non Cummins mechanics brilliant ideas or creation.  Would try to get it to a Cummins shop where they are schooled on the Cummins engines and computers.  It will be cheaper om the end.
Off the box now. ;D

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #4
... We do not intend to ever be in Canada or North Dakota in January ... and even if we were, I do not think there will be an issue.  ...

Has anyone else removed this fuel heater? Is there any downside to eliminating this that we have not thought of? Our mechanic is of the opinion that within a fairly short period of time (45 minutes) all the fuel has been recirculated and warmed without the heater, and we will never notice the difference.

Carol,

To the best of my knowledge, our 1997 with C8.3 (all mechanical, no electronics) has no fuel heater. We have traveled round trip from Texas to Missouri and Montana in December. We were parked in temperatures below 10F for four days in Billings, MT. The temperature the morning we departed was below 5F. We turned on the block heater the night before our departure and we had no problem starting or operating the coach.

When we travel to the north in cold weather, we try to buy local fuel near the end of each travel day. Northern areas use fuel blended for use in cold weather. We buy it late in the day, but early enough that it will be throughly mixed throughout the fuel system.

I recommend a fuel filter that allows you to see if you have any water in its sump. Frozen water in your filter will cause a problem. If you have no water in the filter and are using winter fuel blends, I expect you will not miss the fuel heater.

However, Dave Metzger's opinions are usually based on valuable experience and sound judgment.

Best wishes for a good result.
J D Stevens
1997 U295 CAI 36' Build #5085
2002 Subaru Outback
Motorcade 16869
Bellville, TX

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #5
Anyone interested in diesel engines can probably remember when the Olds and Cadillac diesel models came out. Nothing but trouble, right? Yep, but what is not so well known is the diesel fuel produced at a refinery at that exact time lacked the agent that guards against waxing or gelling occuring. This affected hundreds of cars and since they opted not to have a fuel tank drain, they had to replace a lot of fuel tanks as well as many components in the injection system. Beside being a bad design, this really killed the American produced diesel car for a very long time.

This fuel heater will probably not be needed in the life of your motorhome but Cummins put it there for a reason. That one in a hundred thousand occasion when it could save your bacon if you pick up a bad tank of fuel.

We don't monitor fueling stations like they do in Europe, constantly sending inspectors to take samples from each station's tanks but Mercedes was concerned enough to also put fuel heaters at the injection pump inlet. Other manufactures have also done the same.

Yes, one more place to allow air in but I would think more than twice before removing it before contacting Cummins with the problems you are having.

Lots of "know everything" mechanics at every truck stop but the factory engineers, based on millions and millions of miles of experience, do know best.
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #6
but the factory engineers, based on millions and millions of miles of experience, do know best.
And I've got one of those just over the hill!!  A traveling factory trouble shooter!
1994 U225
build #4514

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #7
Part 3,
After rereading your post Carol, I noticed the part about the Winn 2020 filter pump. I was not aware that is was a heater.  The major problem with that Winn unit is the O rings on the Clear Plastic Bowl, think it is part #300200 (that is a guess), Do not think there is a "Heater" in it.  SO bypassing it would eliminate the leak around the O Rings and would run better.
Sorry I did not zero in on that earlier.  Cummins has a heater in the engine for fuel I am told. That heater you refer to is not Cummins as best I can figure.
Hope they find it.

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #8
Just found out from Bill Willett that Parker Racor makes a replacement part that eliminates the Winn2020 assembly that has failed in our coach. Cleverly, my husband noticed that the mechanic wrote down "Parker Racor" and a part number on our paperwork!  I am feeling pretty confident that this will be a good solution.
Carol & Jeff Savournin
Usta have a '93 U225 36', Usta have a '95 U320 40', Usta have a '02 U320 40'
Usta have a 2006 Born Free, Usta have a 2011 Phoenix Cruiser
Usta have a 2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 4dr
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life."  Steve Jobs

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #9
Just found out from Bill Willett that Parker Racor makes a replacement part that eliminates the Winn2020 assembly that has failed in our coach. Cleverly, my husband noticed that the mechanic wrote down "Parker Racor" and a part number on our paperwork!  I am feeling pretty confident that this will be a good solution.

New part installed in about 10 minutes.  the hard part was diagnosing the actual issue and eliminating all the "zebras" from the horse herd ... if you know what I mean. We now have a much less complicated system than the Winn 2020 with the fuel heater and fuel assist pump.  Both fuel filters are standard water separator types and we should have no problems. The mechanic at Hal Burns was very thorough, and while tracking and verifying our problem he cleaned and checked and tightened all number of electrical connections on the coach ... the result being that we have much more accurate readings from our dash gauges, it is peppier starting and sounding like it should.  Jeff took it for a good ride up and down I-25 after the work was completed ... wanted to make sure there were no additional issues.  When he came back, I asked him how it ran. "We are in soooo much trouble", he said. "I had to back off after I got it up to 82 mph, and it wasn't even tryin'."    I am planning my countermeasures to keep him legal ... he is gonna be wanting to blast down the highway. 
Carol & Jeff Savournin
Usta have a '93 U225 36', Usta have a '95 U320 40', Usta have a '02 U320 40'
Usta have a 2006 Born Free, Usta have a 2011 Phoenix Cruiser
Usta have a 2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 4dr
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life."  Steve Jobs

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #10
New part installed in about 10 minutes.  the hard part was diagnosing the actual issue and eliminating all the "zebras" from the horse herd ... if you know what I mean. We now have a much less complicated system than the Winn 2020 with the fuel heater and fuel assist pump.  Both fuel filters are standard water separator types and we should have no problems.

For those of us with a still-working Winn 2020 but who want to be prepared, don't forget to post the relevant part numbers, etc. to make the solution easy to find!

Quote
Jeff took it for a good ride up and down I-25 after the work was completed ... wanted to make sure there were no additional issues.  When he came back, I asked him how it ran. "We are in soooo much trouble", he said. "I had to back off after I got it up to 82 mph, and it wasn't even tryin'." 

Sooo.... are you planning a trip to Dave M's favorite Cummins shop in VA for a little HP upgrade to 500?

Michelle
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #11
I have a Goose Egg for Jeff"s right foot. :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))
The selected media item is not currently available.Bill&Doris 97 U270 36'
University of Parris Island Class of 66
Semper Fi  Build# 5174 MC#17094

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #12
Carol:  Do you have the 450 or 400 cummings///not sure it matters.  please post the part nr u used.  Tks DAN
Dan & Shirley Stansel
2002 U295 4020 AGDS Build#6054
Towing Buick Enclave & M &  G Braking
Emerald Bay, Lake Palestine, Texas
MC# 16650

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #13
Carol,

Good to see yet another thing sorted on your new ride.  Was getting worried that you might want your old coach back!

Keith & Joyce

PS We are taking the Hams out for dinner on Tuesday.
Keith, Joyce & Smokey the Australian Cattle Dog
1995 U320 SE Extreme 40' WTBI Build # 4780, with a Honda CR-V hopefully still following behind.
Motorcade # 17030
FMCA # F422159

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #14
We have a 2002 with a 450 HP ISM 11 Cummins. The part that went bad was the Racor lift pump located in the housing that is part of the Winn2020, fuel filter and fuel heater. there is a little black box with 2 butons for priming the winnand purging water. This black box also controls the power to the lift pump, and it went bad. There is a replacement system, consisting of a simpler housing and a normal water separating filter.  Part numbers from our invoice are:
86123 fuel filter ... 89309 filter housing ... 1/2PX10JIC fitting  These are Parker Racor parts. 
Carol & Jeff Savournin
Usta have a '93 U225 36', Usta have a '95 U320 40', Usta have a '02 U320 40'
Usta have a 2006 Born Free, Usta have a 2011 Phoenix Cruiser
Usta have a 2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 4dr
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life."  Steve Jobs

Re: Fuel issue on the way to being resolved ...

Reply #15
Carol-Jeff, can you post a picture ?

Ben
1999 u320