Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Topic: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD. (Read 2781 times) previous topic - next topic

Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

August 26, 2011, 07:12:05 pm

Bent push rod in Michigan on I75 out of Ste. Sault Marie and then another bent push rod and bent valve in Rapid City SD.
Hope no one has to go through this mess. This was something that gave me no warning and just happened twice at 60mph on level roadway at 2000 miles apart.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #1 – August 26, 2011, 07:34:15 pm

Quote from: Tom Endres – August 26, 2011, 07:12:05 pm

Bent push rod in Michigan on I75 out of Ste. Sault Marie and then another bent push rod and bent valve in Rapid City SD.

Wow! Do please keep us posted as you learn what may have caused this. Steve and I are sitting here trying to think of what could have happened - timing, mechanical, electronic, etc.

Michelle

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #2 – August 26, 2011, 07:50:52 pm

Yes, when the tear into it, please have them check the valve adjustment of the other valves. #1 cause of bent pushrods is such loose valve/rocker arms that they jump out of the rocker arm and jam.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #3 – August 26, 2011, 09:30:06 pm

1st. time this happened, engine only had 57K on the odometer. Intake push rod on # 2 cylinder bent. Bridge on #2 exhaust valves came off ( connects both valves together and is activated by one push rod). Cam shaft pulled and checked, it was okay. All valves readjusted and all push rods checked. $2,600 lighter and on my way down the, sick,but on the road. After about 2K later it happened again.
Today #5 cylinder intake push rod found to be bent. The rocker arm on #5 cylinder very sloppy. All valve adjustments very loose.
Found #5 valve or valves to be .040 lower than rest, possibly a bent valve. Mechanic presently pulling head, may know more by Monday.
There is a bad chance that a valve struck the piston. Sorry, but I'm not a happy camper.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #4 – August 26, 2011, 10:23:30 pm

Which engine is this?? 350 or 400 or 325. tks DAN

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #5 – August 26, 2011, 11:15:57 pm

An 02 U295 should be a 400 ISL (like mine....gulp).

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #6 – August 27, 2011, 12:33:27 am

So what where the symptoms when you had the problems? Engine light come on? Noise? Loss of power? Of all the parts in our motor home I thought this engine was close to being 100% reliable. Another thing to worry about.

Brett... Is there any preventative maintenance that should be done to avoid this problem?

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #7 – August 27, 2011, 02:21:20 am

My first guess would be, For the valves to be loose to point of damage could be from misadjusted valve clearence, if this were a common issue with any Cummins engine I am sure we would have heard more on this subject or I would have seen / heard about it in the Cummins shop.

I sure have no magic, just a guess like the rest, but this is not a normal thing, why even though I have a fair amount of hands on, and have seen results of those that do not.
I feel there are many who are wanna be mechanics. This is why I go with the factory shops, not where there is a sign hanging from a post or what ever.

If the first repair was at a Cummins factory Dist shop, and you are at a nother Cummins factory shop, I would be asking for some help, warranty or what ever you want to call it.
This is not normal, I am sure they can not explain it as normal wear between MI and SD.
Talk to them, make them use english you understand. I feel the first shop just plain screwed up. A Cummins Distrubutor would have warranty for a while on their work, one reason I pay the high price, I expect quality work if I get stuck on the road, I do not go to Joes expert mechanic shop.

When I had my ISM upgraqded to 500 hp, the work was done by an experienced mechanic with Cummins blessing and approval, not a fresh off the street wanna be.

FWIW

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #8 – August 27, 2011, 02:44:14 am

Quote from: Tom Endres – August 26, 2011, 07:12:05 pm

Bent push rod in Michigan on I75 out of Ste. Sault Marie and then another bent push rod and bent valve in Rapid City SD.
Hope no one has to go through this mess. This was something that gave me no warning and just happened twice at 60mph on level roadway at 2000 miles apart.

Understand you must be extremely frustrated to say the least. Not a Cummins guy but will try to do a little detective work.

Has there been any unusual maintenance done lately? Any hydraulic belt failure that could have caused overheating? Any computer problems? Exceeding engine RPM redline going downhill? Any starting problems that could be from a hydraulic lock (coolant in combustion chamber)? Having to add coolant frequently? Unusual rattles or valve train noise at idle? Turbo making any unusual whistling noises? Using any more oil than normal? EGT running normal range if you have one?

There must be an underlying problem to have the same thing occur in two different cylinders 2000 miles apart. Have to figure what that common denominator might be. Possible bad mechanic but what caused it the first time?

Have seen a turbo seal go on a Cummins 8.3 that damaged several cylinders but could happen to any diesel and not 2000 miles apart.

Try and search for others with the same problem on Cummins engine forums.

Keep forum posted.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #9 – August 27, 2011, 11:16:23 am

This is a 400 ISL engine. The only symptom was an occasional miss for a short time and then it would stop. Was adding injector cleaner to the fuel.
Both times this happened I was cruising at about 58-60 mph and looked in the side mirror saw black smoke pour out when accelerating. Like Brett said, the problem was probably due to valve lash, but Cummins states a readjustment is needed at 100,000 miles. This engine was way short of this mileage. Just hope this doesn't happen to anyone else.
This is suppose to be an idiot proof engine and I'm sure the engine never exceeded 2,000 rpm.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #10 – August 27, 2011, 11:52:01 am

Checked several forums and noticed Brett has been asking questions concerning the failure. The only thing I have seen so far is the four year regardless of mileage valve adjustment. This has gotten the attention of some on those forums. The other concerned a bent pushrod related to Jake brake operation.

Check the posts and photos in this forum: Woodalls Open Roads Forum: Class A Motorhomes: Good Grief! Blown Push Rod...
/true.cfm

Problems also started with #2 cylinder.

Initially, it would seem a four year regardless of mileage valve adjustment is called for.

Sure that Brett will have more info shortly.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #11 – August 27, 2011, 12:38:01 pm

Apparently, not everyone agrees on when this service should be done. Shown below in blue is our experience while at a Cummins facility in May of 2010 in Bakersfield, CA and copied from my entry on ForeForums. This was in regard to "Adjust Engine Valves" as listed in the Foretravel Maintenance Schedule booklet.

Re: M-11 Service
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2010, 02:03:11 PM »
Quote
The Foretravel service book is way OFF when it comes to some of the Cummins service intervals. Less than two hours ago I talked to Cummins West in Bakersfield CA and they said don't even think about that kind of service until we are at at least 150,000 miles. Sure is nice to run into people who are honest and don't want to take your money for unnecessary service.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #12 – August 27, 2011, 12:47:15 pm

Tom,
Sorry and surprised to hear about your problem. If you saw a lot of black smoke, might be wise to check the turbocharger for missing blades, turbo and charge air cooler for air leaks. The engine is not idiot proof if a previous owner did not maintain it correctly. Incorrect coolant can lead to holes in the cylinder liner walls. Incorrect oil type is not good for long life. After the head is pulled, you should find out if there is other damage. We don't have the same engine, but the same brand. My manual calls for valve lash to be checked at 25K miles (unless my memory is failing me). Being new to diesel engines 3 yrs ago, I was surprised that the lifters are mechanical and not hydraulic (may be different on later engines). I checked my valve lash at about 55k miles and no adjustment was needed. There is a special tool called a barring tool or barring gear that is inserted in a hole (normally sealed with a rubber plug) to engage the flywheel gear teeth. The end of the tool opposite the gear teeth has a 1/2" square drive hole for a ratchet handle. Allows one to rotate the engine crankshaft slowly by hand. The procedure for checking valve lash is described in detail in my Cummins engine owners manual. I have the mechanical C 8.3 L engine with 2 valves per cylinder.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #13 – August 27, 2011, 01:17:43 pm

George,

Wonder what their idea of "adjustment" is? My idea is pulling the valve cover and setting the lash (clearance) with a feeler gauge and box wrench to loosen/tighten the rocker arm nut. Unless something is in the way, this would be a DIY 30 minute, 60 max job for a straight six. Pulling the head seems like a wallet adjustment!

Just sitting here thinking, it would seem the valve clearance would have to be incredibly loose to have the pushrod come off and then bend. Dave or anyone else care to comment?

Tom,

A lot of HD diesels stick with the tried and true mechanical lifters. For some of the big Euro boxer truck diesels, a hydraulic lifter failure could mean complete disassemble of the engine to get at the lifters. Pancake aircraft piston engines are the same.

I am usually in a hurry so rather than using a tool to slowly turn the crank, I just use a hand starter switch connected to the starter solenoid (with fuel or computer shut off).

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #14 – August 27, 2011, 01:28:14 pm

Pierce,

I am in over my head. Best to wait for Dave M or Brett to respond to your DIY project.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #15 – August 27, 2011, 02:16:15 pm

Tom: All of us with 02s with the 400 engine want to keep up with all the info as to what happened. When you have info pls post for us. Tks DAN

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #16 – August 27, 2011, 03:38:07 pm

The turbo is OK, it was checked first time.
The coach is presently at a certified Cummins shop. I will post more as soon as I find out anything.
The cylinder head hasn't been removed as of yet.
A sincere thanks to all of you that are concerned as to why this happened.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #17 – August 27, 2011, 04:19:05 pm

Yup, checking/adjusting the valves on the in-line 6 cylinder diesels is not difficult.

Separate subject-- on the failed engine, yes, if removing the valve cover does not reveal the CAUSE of the push rod failure, it is likely that removal of the head is the next step. Was it the same pushrod each time or a different one? Replacing the pushrod would require a valve adjustment after the replacement.

Brett

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #18 – August 27, 2011, 05:14:59 pm

They were both intake push rods. First time #2 cylinder, Second time #5 cylinder.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #19 – August 27, 2011, 06:11:06 pm

I only know that on the 855 series and others, not certain on the newer series B, C, ISB, ISC, ISL ISM AND THE ISX.
But on the older 855 with the PT pump setup, there are 3 marks on the damper pulley 120 deg apart, marked with the valves that are to be adjusted, in two turns of the pulley, you will get all 6 cylinder positions adjusted IF you keep your head clear. Now IF you get screwed up, you will bend push rods. As they say, that's a fact.

I will check Monday for the procedure for the newer series ISL, ISM. maybe that same, but unknown to me.
While I am a Cummins "Dealer", it is in the generation division. However I know who to ask for most any crazy stuff. I no longer turn wrenches on any big engines, only mine, tried to give that up when I resigned from Cat. Amen..

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #20 – August 27, 2011, 07:25:17 pm

Tom Endres' Quote: "Cummins states a readjustment is needed at 100,000 miles. This engine was way short of this mileage."

After reading about Tom's Problems, I thought it would be appropriate to underscore Cummins' recommendation (at least for the C8.3 mechanical engine): Take your coach in to a Cummins service center when your mileage reaches 100,000 miles for valve adjustment. Before I bought my U-280 (C8.3 mechanical), I called the Cummins National Customer Service Center and asked them, with 79,000 miles currently on the engine, what should I expect to do to the engine in the future? I was told to plan on taking the coach in at 100,000 miles for a valve adjustment, and assuming I change fluids and filters according to manufacturer's recommendation, that I could expect to take it in for a major overhaul at 450-500,000 miles.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #21 – August 28, 2011, 08:00:17 am

Tom, Very sorry to have had this happen to you. Obviously, something very unusual is happening.
While I don't have a great deal of experience with the types of diesels in our coaches, I do have a great deal of experience with a disaster that was GM's foray into diesel engines (remade olds 350). I operated 3 repair facilities in the Chicago Metro Area and every winter I would tow in a handful of diesels that wouldn't start, keep them in the shop overnight to warm them up, and the next morning they would start, through running extremely rough due to broken valve train components. After discussions with owners, these were all caused by the introduction of starting either.

I think the likelihood of valve or injection timing slipping enough to bend push rods, then returning to normal to allow you to drive 2,000 miles, and slipping again, are way beyond the statistical laws of probability. It would make sense that something is being introduced into the cylinders at the wrong time or in wrong amounts that is causing predetination or a hydraulic effect. If you coach has the either assist starting system, I would look at it carefully. Others more knowledgeable than I can attest to what would happen to an engine running down the road at 60 mph, receiving a shot of either. I do hope you find a solution. Loosing confidence in ones machine can be just as devastating as the loss to your pocketbook.

Gregory S
2003 designer

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #22 – August 28, 2011, 08:37:30 am

Gregory has a good point, I would have to guess if the engine got enough either to bend push rods, also the top (compression) rings would become so detempered the compression would be so low you would have to use either to start the engine on a warm day.

Have seen a Detroit engine that had to be eithered on a hot day or it would not start, that is so sad and a for sure sign of too many idiots on the loose with either cans.

When (Rarely) we need to use a helper starter fluid, we use carburator cleaner (Berkebile 2+2), it is very good with a softer less destructive explosion.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #23 – August 28, 2011, 08:52:34 am

To my knowledge, there is no ether injection on this coach. My '89 with a CAT. 3208T had an ether injection system.
The mechanic had asked me this question the first time this happened.
I have never used ether on this engine, so I'm at a loss?

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #24 – August 28, 2011, 05:18:03 pm

No ether injection on my ISL 400.

Affiliate Notice