Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Topic: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD. (Read 2781 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #50 – September 01, 2011, 10:21:34 am

It would have to be an electronic Allison to have a pre-select downshift. Betcha they have the preselect set to like 2nd instead of 4th. I would be like ALL OVER that shop...

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #51 – September 01, 2011, 10:29:44 am

With the engine EMC they can tell if the engine was over reved, if this were my coach with broken lifters,the front of the engine would be open and the cam pulled and inspected,cam bearing's inspected,any part that was suspect would be replaced. IMHO

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #52 – September 01, 2011, 10:30:36 am

Have tried telling them that was a strong possibility, but the shop seems to think all is well. nother case of tax money at play, or who cares, em dumb taxpayers will cover it.
Maybe the motor Sargent does not get that conveyed to the shop ?
Like feeling "Out Dumbed"

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #53 – September 01, 2011, 10:32:14 am

The solid lifter (tappet) has a roller on the end that contacts the cam. Both exhaust tappets broke near the edge of roller. Looks as if roller rides on a brass or bronze bushing? Both exhaust lobes on cam scored, so cam will have to be replaced.
What has puzzled me is that both push rod tubes on intake valves bent. No bent valves.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #54 – September 01, 2011, 12:14:43 pm

Quote from: Tom Endres – August 31, 2011, 08:19:38 pm

Today the mechanic on my coach found that the tappet on #2 exhaust and #5 exhaust was broken, pieces found in oil pan.
This presents another problem not yet investigated, and that being the block scored from broken lifters. (please don't let this be)
Will know tomorrow.
I don't think this had anything to do with over speed of engine. Experts will know more.
I'll keep you all informed.

I think it is possible that the tappets may have been defective when new. Doubt if Cummins would ever admit to that, unless they have had others fail. If the block is undamaged or damage repairable, should all the tappets be replaced and is the cam undamaged? I hope the news is good. With no valve to piston contact seems like they just failed, and the failure of one caused the failure of the second. If a crack developed in the tappet before the failure, that should be detectable, but might take a factory engineer to determine that. Save all the broken pieces in case you need them later for some reason. The fastest, least expensive repair, with later piece of mind, might be a rebuilt block.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #55 – September 01, 2011, 03:06:17 pm

Quote from: Tom Endres – September 01, 2011, 10:32:14 am

The solid lifter (tappet) has a roller on the end that contacts the cam. Both exhaust tappets broke near the edge of roller. Looks as if roller rides on a brass or bronze bushing? Both exhaust lobes on cam scored, so cam will have to be replaced.
What has puzzled me is that both push rod tubes on intake valves bent. No bent valves.

Valves (in your engine) should be at zero angle relative to the piston stroke. In other words, they come straight down to the top of the piston. If the top of the piston is flat, it would try and push them straight up. Valves are very strong and supported on much of their length by the valve guide. The guide is long so to make sure the valve contacts the seat accurately and to allow heat to transfer to the cylinder head from the very hot valve.

The pushrods are much longer, and only touch at each end at the rocker arm and the valve lifter so with no other support, they are the weak link and will bend before anything else. Because of their length, they have to be made as light as reasonably possible to keep the mass (reciprocating weight) to a minimum so they can change directions very quickly. Especially important at high RPM as too much weight (valve wants to keep opening) can result in the valves contacting the pistons during an event called valve float.

This is the advantage to overhead cam engines. They don't have pushrods so the total reciprocating weight in the valve train is much less. Many don't even have rocker arms so the lifter rides directly on the cam lobe.

With a very low mileage engine like yours, it is possible the lifters had a factory fault but in my opinion, there may have been some kind of event that caused the failures. After 75K of trouble free miles, two failures within 2K is a pretty good coincidence. Your engine should be just starting in life.

Along with changing the camshaft, most shops will want to change all the lifters.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #56 – September 01, 2011, 04:23:59 pm

Quote from: Brad & Christine Slaughter – August 31, 2011, 07:55:05 pm

Exactly...the transmission SHOULD NOT allow a downshift and cause an overspeed. But with full retard on, and no throttle, transmission set to "6", in 4th gear (selected by the Allison, not me), at about 40 mph, the Allison transmission DID downshift into 3rd, causing what I presume IS an unsafe overspeed.

My point being that it is capable of apparently causing an overspeed in this condition, and folks should be aware of the possibility. As Brett says, one is supposed to be able to call for 1st gear at 60 MPH, and the transmission is supposed to hear "shift all the way down to 1st gear when possible...but not right now because the speed is too great". I don't want to test that, but I can believe it...as far as MANUAL downshifting goes.

This 3rd gear downshift has never happened without my retarder being full on (I don't let the temperature exceed about 215-220 degrees, ever, by the way), and it is as if the Allison is trying to induce more engine braking because it knows that I am trying to go slow since I am traveling with a closed throttle and am in full retard. The only thing I have been able to do when it chooses an inappropriate downshift, is to remove one or both of the reasons for the shift...which means to remove the retarder (at least partially) and use the service brakes to quickly get it slower than the 40 it is holding. Then the Allison brings it out of 3rd gear quickly, altho braking is a bit more difficult. I never hesitate to see if the Allison will get back into 4th on its own.

It isn't that I travel downhill too fast either (I'm that safe slowpoke), it just seems to be a function of having the coach at about 40 mph and trying to keep it there on a 6% grade. When the transmission chooses to make this downshift, I'm usually happily coasting down at 40 mph, using the service brakes intermittently as one should, but with full retard on a long downgrade out here in the West. I'd be interested if the same thing happens to all ISL400/Allison coaches. Certainly sounds like such an event could cause the problem at hand.

I believe that what you say actually happened, but it should not have happened. There may be something with the transmission that needs to be corrected. The operator's manual states that the World Transmission Electronic Control System consists of five major components connected by wiring harnesses. The ECU, throttle position sensor, three speed sensors, shift selector, and control module(contains solenoid valves and a pressure switch). The manual does not say if there is an electrical connection with the retarder or if the retarder wiring is separate. A defect in any one item could cause a problem. A broken wire or bad connection could be causing the problem, which sounds like it is intermittent and not always there. No doubt the transmission is programmed by the installer for the engine it is connected to. That programming may have been corrupted, lost, or changed by someone. With the pushbutton shift selector one can read the stored diagnostic codes, if any, up to 5 max. Foretravel or an Allison shop should be able with a code reader to see all the historical codes.

The shift arrows are not directly causing a shift. They just program the ECU for a maximum gear such as 4 or 5. If the transmission is in 6 and you ask for 5 or 4, the ECU will not (should not)downshift until it is safe to do so. It does happen immediately in most cases with normal RPM.

I have never had my transmission do what yours did. If you turned off the retarder with the hand lever, it would just come back on again as soon as braking is applied.

I think you need to get your transmission checked before some engine damage occurs. Just drive without the retarder switch on until you can have it checked. Most motorhomes don't have it, so it's not really necessary. If you feel confident and know how to be safe working under your coach, you could check the transmission wiring for damage, unplug and replug the connectors, checking for corrosion, and maybe use some Corrosion X on them as preventive maintenance.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #57 – September 01, 2011, 06:45:12 pm

Got the worse news of this whole mess, the block is scored badly. Will have to replace it with a new short block at a cost of about $15-20K. They are also looking for a re-manufactured engine.

Mechanic said the first repair was not done correctly. The #2 tappet should of been replaced when this first happened.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #58 – September 01, 2011, 07:28:22 pm

Tom, I am very sorry to learn of the damage to the block, I guess there is no saving it ?
Also, I am sure they can locate a re-man engine/short block for you, Cummins advertises they have them all over the USA. They should be looking for a Cummins Factory Re-man engine, not some outside good ole boys job.

I would be wondering why they are not interested in rebuilding your present engine using new block, cam, lifters and valve parts as needed, you have a lot of good parts, crank, head, fuel system, oil pump oil pan, etc. too many good parts to just donate to the shop unless they are looking for a short block and plan on using the outside parts. Anyway just an idea.

Next, I was worried about the first repair not lasting but the short distance, a sure sign of poor mechanic work. Am hopeing it was a Cummins shop and not a "shade tree" outfit, If it was a Cummins shop, I would be communicating with them in very clear words, along with pictures and report from present shop as to improper mechanical repair work.
GOOD LUCK

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #59 – September 01, 2011, 09:05:49 pm

Tom,

So sorry. This is probably everyone's worst nightmare. If you had a fire, the insurance would cover it but this hits the pocket book hard. You will want to get a long written Cummins warranty but I'm sure you have thought of that many times.

Let us know what the shop thought was behind the failure. Yes, as above post, they should have gotten an handle on it a couple of thousand ago. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Not a confidence builder. Don't think I'll let Gaylie read this.

Good luck.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #60 – September 01, 2011, 09:27:36 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – September 01, 2011, 09:05:49 pm

Tom,

Let us know what the shop thought was behind the failure.

Tom,

This is truly a disaster. But at least no blood is on the ground. I realize that right now might not be the best time to "criticize" shop #1, but if they don't stand behind their work and you can get no assistance from them I do hope you will tell us who did the incompetent work. None of us want to go near the place.

P.S. If we win a multi-state lottery this weekend, we'll stroke you a big check

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #61 – September 01, 2011, 10:36:25 pm

As George states if they do not(first shop) give some consideration, just let them know that you will be posting their name etc on this forum and also FMCA so they can be seen by many thousands of Diesel owners who could have been their next customers. This should be done after they are given the chance to "help" in some way.
John

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #62 – September 02, 2011, 09:53:42 am

Quote from: Dave M – September 01, 2011, 07:28:22 pm

Next, I was worried about the first repair not lasting but the short distance, a sure sign of poor mechanic work. Am hopeing it was a Cummins shop and not a "shade tree" outfit, If it was a Cummins shop, I would be communicating with them in very clear words, along with pictures and report from present shop as to improper mechanical repair work.
GOOD LUCK

X2 - Have you contacted them yet, and their response?

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #63 – September 02, 2011, 11:20:56 am

Well Dave it all comes down to finances. I'll go with the least expensive repair so I can continue full timing.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #64 – September 02, 2011, 11:25:29 am

Good luck Tom. Hope George won the lottery. I doubt that lower level customer service folks at Cummins would give you any support towards the repairs, but if you keep escalating to senior vp or executive vp titles, you might get the parts for free or a 50/50 warrant split. Yes, the engine is old, but the miles are low, especially if a Cummins authorized shop did the first repair.

I have been very successful getting good outcomes with this approach, takes time and persistence, but can pay big dividends.

Ouch! And good luck.
On Friday, September 2, 2011, Tom Endres <teeendres@yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote

Well Dave it all comes down to finances. I'll go with the least expensive repair so I can continue full timing.

'02 U295 36'
'99 Chevy Tracker
Tome.
y s

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #65 – September 02, 2011, 11:30:39 am

Thanks George, for bringing a smile to my heart, haven't done that for a while.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #66 – September 02, 2011, 11:42:37 am

I asked the GM of the authorized repair shop if Cummins would help me on the parts cost. He said if I was the original owner they might,but being the second owner they probably won't. Well at least I asked.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #67 – September 02, 2011, 11:47:17 am

Tom,
One ask to the shop manager will not get it done. 10 phone calls, multiple escalations and hours of your time is what is required. But it could save you $20,000. Some people don't have the stomach for the work, but believe me that it is done often. A senior or executive vp at cummings has budget for this sort of thing and broad powers to make customers happy. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #68 – September 02, 2011, 01:48:36 pm

Tom,

Give some serious thought to what Tim has said. I have had very satisfying results with contacting the CEO at Dell and at Lenovo and in both cases the problem was solved to my satisfaction at no cost. But it took some persistence and in each case I had to ask who they report to. Never get angry on the phone or you lose.

If you can find the name of the person to contact at Cummins and if you write me a complete message with all of the details, I will draft a letter for you.

This is one situation that should not be shrugged off. IMHO.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #69 – September 02, 2011, 02:00:27 pm

Quote from: Tim Fiedler – September 02, 2011, 11:47:17 am

Tom,
One ask to the shop manager will not get it done. 10 phone calls, multiple escalations and hours of your time is what is required. But it could save you $20,000. Some people don't have the stomach for the work, but believe me that it is done often. A senior or executive vp at cummings has budget for this sort of thing and broad powers to make customers happy. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

Tom,

Tim has it exactly right. You have to stay in their face, day after day after day. Insurance companies, hospitals, etc. all have these "secret" funds available for people who won't take no for an answer. Have spent many hours writing letters for insurance claims when I would not take "their last offer".

You have a good forum here behind you. Never think you are imposing as this could happen to any one of us at any time. We ARE your support group.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #70 – September 02, 2011, 04:24:38 pm

"This is not an acceptable resolution to the issue. Who is your superior and how do I contact them?" Don't forget that you are a member of a forum that is many members strong ... Cummins Service Facility customers, who are all paying close attention to the locations that did GOOD work, and also BAD work. Motor homes besides Foretravel use Cummins engines, and many publications have "Letters to the Editor" type pages for you to write in to. You have hard data, retrieved by Cummins techs, that point to a faulty repair at a Cummins facility, and you are not asking for the moon. There are many talented Ombudsmen in our Forum who can help you keep negotiating with Cummins. Don't give up!! You can cause them $60,000 worth of bad publicity in the end ... or they can give you a break and be heroes! If your time is worth $100 per hour, you can surely devote a few hours a week towards a good resolution.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #71 – September 02, 2011, 05:46:45 pm

I have an idea that may just start some ball rolling. Why do not we start an online letter that is addressed to Cummins and we all put our names and phone #s on it to help Tom in this case (it may just prove helpful for someone else in the future) I am sure Steve can come up with a way to make it so we just add names to it. There are many Cummins engines out there. I also would be writing to them and telling them about this Forum and a letter is going to go to FMCA for the magazine with names of shops etc. Show this also to the repair shops that did the work and hopefully they will initiate some comment to Cummins
John

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #72 – September 02, 2011, 06:07:48 pm

Some good advice here, but it may be premature.

You need to get in writing the CAUSE of the catastrophic failure that ruined the block (from the Cummins dealer). Only then can you effectively pursue a remedy. Many times, the dealer can work with his factory rep if he feels factory help is warranted. Dealer service managers/factory reps have long-standing working relationships. Do NOT skip this step. Said another way, DON'T start out by burning bridges.

Brett
General Manager of automobile dealerships for 20 years, plus worked for Am Honda, Nissan and Chrysler Corp.

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #73 – September 02, 2011, 06:11:56 pm

Amen!
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.

Reply #74 – September 02, 2011, 06:13:34 pm

Behind your idea 100% but should we wait for a word from Tom? He may have access to computer RPM readout from his rig. Last shop dropped the ball (or lifter) but is Allison also a possible culprit? Don't get me wrong but just want all ducks in row.

Yes, we are not driving VW campers here. We should be able to provide a good show of force. Not only should Tom be compensated but all Cummins operators should be notified what the exact problem is and what they will do to resolve the issue. Don't think it will do much for Cummins rep if the word gets out from a large group like ours. Plus, who wants this in the back of their mind when setting out on a long trip from home?

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