Audiophile grade sound

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Audiophile grade sound

October 07, 2011, 08:24:55 am

While my coach has a pretty decent grade of Blaupunkt speakers scattered throughout it, I'm wanting to ramp up sound grade several notches. I'd be interested in collaborating with anyone whos considering the same. In yet one more of the barbs that the aging process thrusts upon you, I find that my tolerance for distortion is diminished, even as hearing loss and tinnitis accellerates. MP3 recordings, consumer grade sounds systems are nothing but tiring and frustrating to listen to.

I've built some pretty decent speakers for home use, the last set was a small set of bookshelf speakers designed by Ed Frias, a gift from an esteemed audio engineer to the DIY community. With the exception of extended bass (easily added), they readily outperform my large Vandersteen speakers. I'm thinking they, or something similar, might make a good starting point. I've also wondered about line arrays due to their ability to fit unobtrusively in several areas in the coach lr. TV and cabinetry to be replaced also, and a spot to rack up and manage some gear is under consideration also.

Assets in my case include CNC machinery that will readily and accurately cut the most elaborate ply or mdf components imaginable. I'll be glad to do duplicates for others if we can nail down an optimal design scheme.

Chuck

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #1 – October 07, 2011, 09:08:44 am

I feel your pain regarding mp3 and modern recordings. Everything now is compressed to be so loud, it has no dynamic range and is tiring to listen to. I just kind of surrendered to it and listen to my Ipod a lot, and don't think about how my inferior stereo equipment of the past and my LPs (now in storage) sounded better.

This would surely kill what sounds like a great project, but you could just get some good headphones. I love my Beyerdynamic DT 770 set, and they are modestly-priced (under $200). I use them mostly for recording, and have been pleased with the sound quality. mp3 is well-suited for a moving listening space, having no moving parts - could you use a dynamic range expansion program on your computer to open the tracks up some - I have not tried this.

I would think getting a good sound while driving would be almost impossible given the listener orientation (in a corner facing a smooth surface) and the shape of the space.

oldMattB

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #2 – October 07, 2011, 12:53:04 pm

Not too concerned with tune quality while driving, it's when parked that I'd like to be able to enjoy some primo sounds. I see some possibilities with mounting speakers on either side of the tv on articulating brackets. I see the very interesting possiblity of hinge mounting a couple of line arrays to the underside of the upper perimeter cabinets aft of doorway and drivers seat. These long, skinny arrays could swing down for use, latch up for travel. They would also work while driving. Subwoofer can go pretty much anywhere, probably under couch, might need to shorten drawers a bit to put a long, skinny airtight enclosure under there. I used this scheme on my boat and it's outstanding with two 6" drivers.

The headphones are a good idea but they would need to be wireless. I aggressively pace and think when absorbed in music. Weird, I know.

Naturally I'd also want this stuff to work for dolby 5.1 min, though it's a secondary consideration. Need to find an efficient amp with decent output also. Will see what Carver or similar might have. The more I think about it, the more I realize I need this sound system.

Chuck

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #3 – October 07, 2011, 01:06:06 pm

I just wish my hearing was still good enough to appreciate that type of audio. Count your blessings, I really miss my passion for music.

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #4 – October 07, 2011, 04:52:00 pm

I also am an audiophile wanting to improve the sound in my 1996 U320.
I am blessed with excellent hearing at 68.

I built transmission line tower speakers in 1979, called "Pro9 TL", designed by Chris Rogers, using the KEF B139 base drivers, and driven by Quad 33/303 preamp/amp. Sound sources were tape and vinyl. These dudes need to be refurbished now as the years have taken their toll, and way too large (5 foot tall & 110lbs) for Foretravel.

I am convinced that this audiophile sound could not be duplicated in the Foretravel because the room forms part of the system. Foretravel room volume is too small with too much glass, no room for speakers, and just "OK" sound source (CD has never been able to challenge vinyl for audiophile sound).

I replaced the original dash AM/FM CD with a much higher end AM/FM CD. I replaced the FM antenna on the roof with a Fanfaire antenna.

I may upgrade the dash speakers and am considering "ORB" speakers but would certainly consider "Ed Frias" speakers.
I will install a powered subwoofer under the couch, driven by the dash AM/FM CD.

I will replace the bedroom AM/FM/tape with the same AM/FM CD as in the dash, while still using the original antenna and speakers (Blaupunkt RL6529).

For TV surround sound, I will purchase an AV receiver and use the original Blaupunkt speakers.

I believe that 5.1 or 7.1 has more to do with marketing than with superior sound (you only have 2 ears) and believe the same dollars spent on stereo (2 speaker systems) will provide superior sound to 5.1 or 7.1 where there are 6 or 8 speaker systems.

For the best sound, I purchased three pairs of Sennheiser HD 650 headsets which are not broken in yet (love the base). I am still researching amplifiers and sound sources for these. I plan to keep this as a WIRED stand alone system which can be moved from room to room. WIRED because wireless equates to reduced sound quality.

I do not play music while driving because I find it distracking. I have to work hard to feel safe when driving a 40 foot motorhome.

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #5 – October 07, 2011, 06:54:40 pm

Wyatt,

Another good set of speakers are the Monsoon MM1000 or for 5.1, the MM2000. They are flat 4 X 8 inch dipole-radiating planar magnetic and have a nice transparent sound without listener fatigue after 30 minutes or so. They lost money in the computer market so only make home systems now but these are available on ebay or craigslist. Could toss the supplied sub, use your own and install the 4x8 flat panels.

See review at: Monsoon MM-2000 Review & Rating | PCMag.com

If using a Mac, you can install a sound processor called "hear". Bring source into the Mac, choose delay, size of room, equalizer, mixer, FX, etc. and then out to your amp. Can be used with iTunes for CDs or vinyl imported with Apple Lossless Encoder. Don't know of any men and few women at our age that can tell the difference between analog and digital especially when fiddled with using available vinyl sound plug-ins.

I still have my stock Sony "explode" in dash unit. You can plug most anything (iPod, laptop or even iPhone with USB adapter) USB into the under dashtop (right in the middle) stock Sony XA-300 audio controller and after replacing the original above driver/passenger seat speakers, enjoy good sound for very little money. As soon as the USB device is plugged in and turned on, it will be selectable in the Sony's display menu. Pays to go online and find out everything the radio and controller can do.

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #6 – October 07, 2011, 09:56:55 pm

press 1 for english

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #7 – October 09, 2011, 12:20:20 pm

Quote from: Wayne Macauley – October 07, 2011, 09:56:55 pm

press 1 for english

Ditto!!! LOL! Thank you, Wayne ... you made my day. I often read this kind of stuff and try to absorb it, but very few light bulbs go on in my head.

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #8 – October 09, 2011, 12:32:00 pm

Me too!
Sorry for the "too much information", I just happen to be passionate about audio!

Thanks for the tip on Monsoon speakers.
I started researching and realize it has been a decade since.....
I may have to retract my redneck statement: "CD has never been able to challenge vinyl for audiophile sound".

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #9 – October 09, 2011, 12:50:03 pm

There are some great-sounding CDs out there - I find most of them in the Americana and alt-country genres. Most of the pop stuff is compressed so much there is little dynamic range left and it fatiguing to listen to. A lot of the older stuff is just the LP masters compressed and put on CD. Mp3 are compressed more - great for mass storage, but kind of flat sounding.

If you are looking for a big project, you can record your LPs into a digital recording studio, edit out pops, clicks and hiss, compress and expand individual frequency bands, equalize in narrow bands to fit the listening space, and store them on CDs, DVDs, portable hard drives, thumb drives, etc.

Or you can just surrender to things as they are and listen. I have the recorder, and I still listen to things as they are.

oldMattB

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #10 – October 09, 2011, 01:09:44 pm

Some of the best music I have heard ,comes from a friends home studio that is full of mid 1950 Macintosh tube equipment, Ronny will buy old Macintosh and restore,he tells me that transistors do not make good sound.

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #11 – October 10, 2011, 02:18:21 pm

A bit supprised that there is no mention of Klipsch Speaker systems of Hope Arkansas.

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #12 – October 10, 2011, 04:17:04 pm

Quote from: dub – October 10, 2011, 02:18:21 pm

A bit supprised that there is no mention of Klipsch Speaker systems of Hope Arkansas.

They have been around since at least the 1950's. Folded horn with corner placement as I remember. They do make nice sounding compact speakers now and would be an excellent choice in a RV, Bose too. Logitech are very popular but have had some longevity problems at high power from what I understand. Big discounts are available online.

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #13 – October 12, 2011, 08:20:26 am

I did a "budget" audio upgrade in my 91 U225, replacing the Sony tape deck with a Pioneer CD player which has an aux audio input ($79), and the Sony speakers were replaced with the same size Kickers ($90 a pair X 2 pairs). Certainly doesn't qualify as an audiophile system, but sounds ten times better than the original system. May add an 8 inch Kicker powered sub between the front seats.

I consider that my "driving" music system. It has to compete with road, wind, and engine noise; thus any improvement in audio quality would probably be lost in the background. It is good enough for my tastes. For more serious listening I have a pair of Event Project Studio 8 powered monitors as part of my music production workstation being put together.

I think the biggest limitation will be the coach itself, as Wyatt has posted. It's very easy to overcome the limits of the space and muddle the sound. Smaller speakers seem to do better, along with a limited amount of bass. Headphones are a good solution. I looked into wireless units, but did not see anything suitable. I added a 25 foot extension cord so I can move around, and just need to watch my step.

I've been playing, recording, and producing music for 7 years now. People who've heard my finished product always comment on the clarity, definition and headroom they hear in the music, although the downside is they have to turn up the volume, compared to a commercial CD. It's really very simple - I don't compress it to death. I've read a number of books on mixing and mastering, and I was quite dismayed to see all the pros going on about compressing and compressing and compressing. I consider that as an embellishment to use when appropriate, not an arbitrary approach. But that's what they do so it will sound good on AM radio.

I grew up listening to vinyl and tape. The most incredible sound system I ever heard was from a reel to reel audio system with a tube power amp. MP3s can't touch that. I have to remix my tracks for conversion to MP3, and a great deal of audio quality is lost in the process. Don't have an MP3 player, and don't want one.

Everything seems to be digital now, but we still live in an analog world. I read a white paper by Sony a few years ago, regarding a study of human hearing as it relates to music. We can discern very tiny differences in sound, much more so than I would have thought. They concluded that one will not be able to tell the difference between digital and analog audio when digital technology gets to 2 million samples per second with a 30 bit data path (CDs are at 44 thousand samples per seond with a 16 bit data path - we have a ways to go).

Steve

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #14 – October 12, 2011, 10:09:55 am

A doctor said I was born deaf in my right ear. What is stereo??

At least I think he said it was my ear, or maybe it was something missing in my head??

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #15 – October 12, 2011, 02:25:02 pm

Am putting an Onkyo receiver with Klipsch Speakers in the coach now. Tested it out and it sounds very good.

Not an audiophile just like good sound.

Keith

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #16 – October 12, 2011, 03:23:30 pm

I was 14 in 63 and a neighbor had a nice turn table and a set of Klipsch Lascals I think they were.... Cabinets were probably 4 ft high and 3 ft wide. Vinyl lp of the Ventures and we would turn it up and do the watusi.... at least until his father came home.. He would do the watusi on our butts for fooling with his sounds... Never will forget that sound... I haven't had a decent player in years... just as well because after 2 good shots of Mescal I'm still bad about turning one up.... The wife does not think that is GROOVEY.. not even a little.... By the way.. the original Klipsch plant and home of Paul Klipsch is just up the road from me.. My mother in law retired from there..

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #17 – October 12, 2011, 06:02:05 pm

Merle,

Since you can't really take a turntable onboard without a lot of work, why not rip the vinyl LP or CD and import them to your laptop in "lossless format"? Itunes gives you a wide choice in preferences for importing in the format you want. Apple Lossless takes up about half the room of a CD and sounds good doing it. PCs have something like it. Agree with you that MP3s sound good for 30 seconds. Listener fatigue also gets to you about as fast as a visiting mother-in-law.

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #18 – October 12, 2011, 08:23:32 pm

I was listening to Beth Hart and John Bonamossa (Don't Explain) tonight. I you want to hear some powerful blues-rock, its hard to find better.
Beth Hart and Joe Bonamassa | Official Site

Beth Hart and Joe Bonamassa- Well Well (teaser) - YouTube
Beth Hart and Joe Bonamassa- I'll Take Care of You - YouTube

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #19 – October 13, 2011, 02:44:55 pm

Quote from: Dave Head – October 12, 2011, 08:23:32 pm

I was listening to Beth Hart and John Bonamossa (Don't Explain) tonight. I you want to hear some powerful blues-rock, its hard to find better.
Beth Hart and Joe Bonamassa | Official Site

Beth Hart and Joe Bonamassa- Well Well (teaser) - YouTube
Beth Hart and Joe Bonamassa- I'll Take Care of You - YouTube

Wow! Great tip! Hadn't ever heard Beth Hart, but what a great singer and a great album! Reminds me of Janis Joplin. Just downloaded the Don't Explain album from iTunes.

Thanks!

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #20 – October 20, 2011, 08:22:31 am

I've always been impressed, and somewhat envious of all those right brain thinkers, by how many serious musicians own Foretravels. Lots of good ideas here, and will be heading back to the skunk works in a few weeks to work on some of them. I'll probably start off by redoing the cabinets, larger TV and give the Frias speakers a try along with some basic, clean amplification. I'm sure the speakers will need to be bracket mounted so they can extend away from walls into free air, eliminate corner loading of walls. (The Klipsch corner horns used that loading to good effect, but way too cumbersome for the Fore.) Hopefully, with the aid of easily obtained accoustical measurement and tuning aids, a relatively simple speaker system can be tuned to the accoustics of the room.

I didn't know why most MP3 and such sound so bad to me but according to the explanations posted, it sounds like over compression is at the core of it. I will look into some of the enhancement techniques. Kent, my hearing is terrible, too many years of standing next to howling diesels and hydraulics (I owned a drilling business in a prev live), too stupid to wear hearing protection, and Ted Nugent has some explainin to do also. However, even with severe hearing loss, tinnitis at about the level of loud spoken words, I find that I can truly enjoy recorded music IF it is very pure, clean and accurate.

Regards to all from Mousetail Landing State Park. Reluctantly leaving the glorious fall weather of Tennessee and meandering back to Texas .

Chuck

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #21 – October 20, 2011, 09:14:57 am

Chuck, I never thought about the over compression being a reason that I don't listen to music for any length of time. Thanks to all in this thread for giving me hope that I can enjoy music again. I will just have to find a way to play some of my old LP albums through a good set of headphones to see if my problem is the music or me.

I too have tinnitus from guns being fired in closed spaces due to 20 years with the Sheriff's Department. I understand that there are hearing aids that will cancel the tinnitus, something else to do down the road, but I think they would not be good for listening to music.

Re: Audiophile grade sound

Reply #22 – October 20, 2011, 11:16:52 am

Proceed carefully with any medical-based hearing improvements carefully. I wore a hearing aid for six months of torture because some %$#$ misdiagnosed a slight ear infection. I am glad I didn't opt for the recommended surgery. My hearing is fine now.

oldMattB

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