Banks Stinger

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Banks Stinger

November 13, 2011, 08:46:16 pm

Just arrived at AM Solar for the new panels in the morning and then onto Banks in Azusa Calif. Wow am I waiting to get there!! I have not had mine working as I think it is the module that is shot ( talked to them a couple weeks ago about it) and this drive from home was a total different drive that what I am used to in the coach. The loss of hp while climbing is dramatic and coming thru' the mtns in Washington was not the same as before. It performed well my little 350 Cummins but the loss of added power is very noticeable AND the difference in fuel usage ( according to VMSpc) is amazing.
I still have the long climb of siskuyu in northern Calif to do and the Grapevine both of which I usially fly up but will just have to be like the rest of the trucks this time.
I will try to bs them and tell them I will do an adv for them as to the value of it in exchange for the cost of the module if that turns out to be the problem. I wish we had someone close to us at home to do the work but they will not allow anyone to work on it as it has to be sent to factory.
John

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #1 – November 13, 2011, 08:56:11 pm

John,

Does the problem manifest as low boost pressure, as well as loss of power? Do you see changes on the pyrometer? What first caused you to suspect a problem with the Stinger?

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #2 – November 13, 2011, 11:08:13 pm

first noticed it on a short drive at home going to dump tanks going up a hill near home. Looked at gauges, zippo and thought the fuse had blown but it had not. Checked wiring and not that. Called Tech service at Banks and they said check lights on modem but there was no light lit so they said--computers gone!!! there is low boost (normal for the engine I guess) and power is definitly not what it was either climbing or starting form stop. My pyrometer does not work now either. the VMS pc shows what I guess is normal functions it is just that I am used to a hell of a lot more oomph. Engine runs good and sounds good just the same. i guess the best way to explain it is if you are used to driving a BMW and then you have to put up with a mercedes that is what it is like. (put that in for Pierces benefit--he he)
John

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #3 – November 14, 2011, 09:04:19 am

Thank you for the description of the symptoms. It sounds like you are not even getting the power you would get from the OEM turbo.

Wiring, modem, computer? Hmm. The Stinger on our coach is mechanical, as is the C8.3 engine. The boost gauge has a pneumatic tube from somewhere on the intake system to the gauge. The pyrometer does use some kind of electrical sender.

I think I would like to have a newer, electronically controlled engine, but the mechanical stuff has worked well for us. (And it was in our price range. I hope I haven't "gootched" by praising the simplicity and reliability.)

BMW performing as badly as MB. Ouch! Maybe I should be offended. Nah!

I plan to take my 1997 E320 to the shop -- again. It's ONLY been about 18 months since it was last to the shop. It needs an oil change and some lamps fixed.

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #4 – November 14, 2011, 10:49:41 am

Quote from: J. D. Stevens – November 14, 2011, 09:04:19 am

Thank you for the description of the symptoms. It sounds like you are not even getting the power you would get from the OEM turbo.

Wiring, modem, computer? Hmm. The Stinger on our coach is mechanical, as is the C8.3 engine. The boost gauge has a pneumatic tube from somewhere on the intake system to the gauge. The pyrometer does use some kind of electrical sender.

I think I would like to have a newer, electronically controlled engine, but the mechanical stuff has worked well for us. (And it was in our price range. I hope I haven't "gootched" by praising the simplicity and reliability.)

BMW performing as badly as MB. Ouch! Maybe I should be offended. Nah! I plan to take my 1997 E320 to the shop -- again. It's ONLY been about 18 months since it was last to the shop. It needs an oil change and some lamps fixed.

At least, it has a "drive home" or perhaps should say, drive slowly mode. Don't be in a hurry to ditch your mechanical engine. Remember, "be careful what you wish for...". John, hope you get it dialed in quickly as always a bummer to start a trip with something wrong. Sure you will get a handle on it quickly. Post details as you get to the bottom of the problem.

JD,

It's just MB envy. Lot of people have it now that MB makes all the Detroit Diesel engines. Same with the CAT owners as they are now one of the leading 2 cycle diesel manufacturers in the world.

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #5 – November 14, 2011, 11:48:29 am

Is that a 325hp 97 motor?

I thought Banks wouldn't sell a Stinger for that model 8.3, as its already maxed out!

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #6 – November 14, 2011, 03:09:30 pm

Dave, John's coach is a 2000 so he should have the 350 ISC, Bank's did have a kit some years back for the C8.3,but as far as I know it is no longer available, the older ones can be uprated with caution, you can adjust the fuel plate and change the waste-gate, add a pyrometer and boost gauge to check what the engine is doing,you can push it to 375 hp, the limiter in all of this is the cooling system,what people forget is that you lose 18-20%of the HP for the load on the engine (alt. a/c. torque converter. transmission.) before you move the first wheel, if most people had there coach on a Dyno, they would be suprised at the final,HP figure.

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #7 – November 14, 2011, 03:27:17 pm

Quote from: Dave Head – November 14, 2011, 11:48:29 am

Is that a 325hp 97 motor?

I thought Banks wouldn't sell a Stinger for that model 8.3, as its already maxed out!

Yup! C8.3-325 on the label. It appears to have a Banks Stinger. I don't know enough to specifically identify the differences between OEM and the Banks enhancements. The casting on the blower housing is "Holset." If I recall correctly, the mechanic for the previous owner mentioned that the owner added the Banks system to get a little more "zip" from the engine. The cockpit gauges include aftermarket boost gauge and pyrometer with Banks logos.

I found some Banks documents among the stacks of documents that came with the coach. The Banks owners manual says the system is for "250-325 HP Cummins Powered (C8.3L) Class-A Pusher Motorhome." The previous owner wrote a couple of places in the manual "absolute max temperature 1300F." I put a piece of red tape at 1250 on the pyrometer. Marilyn and I watch the pyrometer when we are going uphill. If the EGT approaches the red line, we make sure the cruise control is disengaged and we back off the accelerator enough to keep the EGT at a safe level.

We can't come lose to keeping up with Dave M

, but our machine has done a good job for us.

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #8 – November 14, 2011, 03:41:44 pm

J.D. I would believe that 8.3 is setup from "Stock" as would not expect it to get the exhaust temps up anywhere near the 1250 area, in fact about 950 would be about max from my experience.
FWIW

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #9 – November 14, 2011, 04:46:53 pm

Back in the late 1970's, we had manifolds cast up for normally aspirated Mercedes 240Ds and 300Ds and installed RayJay turbos. We only boosted to 7 psi as the stock engines were not equipped with oil sprayers in the block and lacked several other HD upgrades. We worked closely with DRD Inc in Torrance, CA as they had all the bench testers for the Bosch pumps, did all the compressor maps and farmed out the actual castings. What we did find out was the exhaust temperature can vary as much as 500 degrees, depending on where the probe is placed. In the exhaust manifold shows the highest reading while turbo exhaust temps are much lower and probes installed in the exhaust pipe below the turbo show the coolest readings. The closer to the exhaust valve, the higher the reading.

A 900 degree reading if the probe is mounted at the turbo exhaust will be much cooler than the really important, exhaust manifold temp. Check your probe location before you start to feel too secure with the reading.

More fuel and/or more turbo pressure always add up to higher pyro readings. Power always makes heat.

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #10 – November 14, 2011, 05:12:37 pm

Hi Pierce, I have zero experience with home made manifolds for the MB crowd and 7 psi turbos, but at Cat schools and others, general rule of thumb is 300 degree difference between hot side of turbo vs exhaust side of turbo, these are factory threaded ports for testing. All part of normal trouble shooting diagnostics.
Meaning if you exceed 1100f on turbo outlet, you are over temp.
Ever look at a turbo on a large engine at 100% load, you can see the outline of the impeller right thru the casting, a beautiful sight, problem you get roasted if you look too long. Why I prefer generator work vs truck/automobile, everything is right in front of you, and no need to crawl under or over it normally.
On the ISM series with the VMSpc, you do not get exhaust temp reading, however you get intake temp reading. That way you know your not throwing melted valves into the intake. Which indicates the CAC is working great.
The Banks pyro is sensing the exhaust in the manifold before the turbo, so the 1250f reading seems reasonable to not exceed with a bit of safety.
FWIW

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #11 – November 14, 2011, 07:50:43 pm

Quote from: Dave M – November 14, 2011, 05:12:37 pm

Hi Pierce, I have zero experience with home made manifolds for the MB crowd and 7 psi turbos, but at Cat schools and others, general rule of thumb is 300 degree difference between hot side of turbo vs exhaust side of turbo, these are factory threaded ports for testing. All part of normal trouble shooting diagnostics.
Meaning if you exceed 1100f on turbo outlet, you are over temp.
Ever look at a turbo on a large engine at 100% load, you can see the outline of the impeller right thru the casting, a beautiful sight, problem you get roasted if you look too long. Why I prefer generator work vs truck/automobile, everything is right in front of you, and no need to crawl under or over it normally.
On the ISM series with the VMSpc, you do not get exhaust temp reading, however you get intake temp reading. That way you know your not throwing melted valves into the intake. Which indicates the CAC is working great.
The Banks pyro is sensing the exhaust in the manifold before the turbo, so the 1250f reading seems reasonable to not exceed with a bit of safety.
FWIW

Dave,

We went into the exhaust manifold for our readings. 1200 degrees was the max. we used as we wanted to be really conservative. While we did only pressurize to 7 psi on our "home made manifolds" (and never came close to 1200 degrees) we also did a lot of work on customers 300SDs that wanted more power. 14 psi was stock but changing turbos and adding fuel really made them fly.

Thought you might enjoy a couple of photos of our cobbled together "home made" MBZ turbo manifolds. Had one of the last ones on the wall in the garage. We did a lot of work on Porsches also. Here is a personalized photo of my 3.3 turbo serial WPO9308700021 along with the MBZ manifold. The 21st 3.3 built and the 7th production car as the first 15 were test mules. Oldest in the US and possibly the world. This is a euro model, the first production car to get to 60 in a little over 4 seconds.

Just before I bought my DOT/EPA compliance company, they did the first big 911/930 intercooler for RUF. RUF took it back to Germany and copied it and that is what you see on their 200 mph 911/930s.

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #12 – November 14, 2011, 08:09:29 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – November 14, 2011, 04:46:53 pm

... A 900 degree reading if the probe is mounted at the turbo exhaust will be much cooler than the really important, exhaust manifold temp. Check your probe location before you start to feel too secure with the reading. ...

Quote from: Dave M – November 14, 2011, 05:12:37 pm

... The Banks pyro is sensing the exhaust in the manifold before the turbo, so the 1250f reading seems reasonable to not exceed with a bit of safety. ...

I just took a look at the pyrometer probe. It is in the exhaust manifold immediately before the turbo. Setting red line at 1250F and keeping watch seem like appropriate actions. Engine has over 70K miles and all has been good to the best of my knowledge.

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #13 – November 14, 2011, 08:12:31 pm

Hey J D,

What kind of temps are you seeing? Cruising at 65? Steep stuff on a hot day? High altitude?

Pierce

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #14 – November 14, 2011, 08:25:23 pm

Pierce, I thank you for those photos, Can see that they look good to me, I had both the 240 and a 300TD, aFor sure the NA 240 was close to dead, but got you both ways fine, just no hurry. The stock 300TD was great above 80 mph and ok at 50+ but can see the need for mo boost. Thanks for sharing that info and pix.
Dave M

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #15 – November 14, 2011, 08:36:36 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – November 14, 2011, 08:12:31 pm

Hey J D,
What kind of temps are you seeing? Cruising at 65? Steep stuff on a hot day? High altitude?
Pierce

I'll need to watch and make notes in order to give you a good answer. We watch when we climb in order to avoid overheating the turbo, but don't pay much attention most of the time.

We plan to drive to Kansas City for the Thanksgiving holiday. There are no big hills and it won't be hot. However, we should be able to get some boost and temperature values for cruising at 65 mph. I'll try to get some numbers as we go over the Arbuckle Mountains in southern Oklahoma. They aren't big, but they do induce some shifting to lower gears.

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #16 – November 14, 2011, 09:14:19 pm

J.D. If you have not installed a resonator in place of the Cowl muffler, you will find two things for sure, 1 additional power and 2 lower exhaust temps as the exhaust can exit quicker, reducing the heat due to lack of back pressure currently experiencing.

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #17 – November 14, 2011, 09:37:33 pm

Quote from: Dave M – November 14, 2011, 09:14:19 pm

J.D. If you have not installed a resonator in place of the Cowl muffler, you will find two things for sure, 1 additional power and 2 lower exhaust temps as the exhaust can exit quicker, reducing the heat due to lack of back pressure currently experiencing.

I am a big fan of leaving equipment in "stock" condition. However, I have read with interest the posts regarding replacing the muffler with a resonator or straight pipe. I may see if my son would be interested in helping me make such a modification. He is the one with the good tools. When we bought our first DP with a B5.9, his early comments include "Banks."

I'm sure the brides and neighbors would be delighted for us to back a 36' coach into his driveway and start working on it.

They might even call in other folk, like the HOA police

, to watch and take pictures.

The less restrictive exhaust system would like allow more power because of the faster disposal of waste heat. I might be a nice complement to the Stinger.

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #18 – November 14, 2011, 09:47:48 pm

What I learned from my experience with the resonator, That is the first step, even if you never do anything else, it is the biggie. on my ISM the boost went from the normal 26 to 28.5 psi, that folks is noticable. even if your slow, of course the resto of the story got it up to the 32psi

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #19 – November 15, 2011, 09:53:54 pm

ok folks some answers to a few questions. Why I was getting bad power etc when I wrote that item I found out was because I did not disconnect the cable form the module and plug in the by pass plug to return it to stock. I did that after leaving AM Solar and what a difference. I came up siskuyou no trouble and a couple hours ago up the Grapvine again no problem- just lots of trucks changing lanes and lots of cops giving tickets so as I was pulling the car I had to stay in the right lanes. Now for the 2 real points so far (Dave-yahoo) at night when we stop we usually get into a really warm bed but not now, with the muffler gone the engine compartment is not hot hot and the bed is cool (till we get in it !!!) and most importantly watching the water temp it did not rise more than a couple degrees when climbing those suckers which says a lot for the engine breathing better. It sounded great too.
Now about the pyro one- mine is drilled into the ex manifold and I have seen it go to 1200 when really pulling hard up a hill but I scale it back a bit for safety. We are now here at Banks and will se what happens in the morning, but one thing for sure I am so glad I did the muffler removal. That was a no-brainer for me now. This engine is doing great and is staying cool.. I know as I have put it thru' a lot the last 2 days.
John

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #20 – November 15, 2011, 10:42:23 pm

John, I am delighted you are seeing similar things that I have noticed also, less heat and more power, what I call a win-win thing. As I have said, If I could only do one thing it would be the exhaust muffler swap for the resonator, like you are seeing the results too. It is a funny thing, even with the better fuel burn I run a little harder and seem to get better mileage too. I love it.
Glad you found the problem and got it running better, hope all is well at Banks.
Dave

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #21 – November 18, 2011, 08:07:07 pm

well what a joke at Bank's !! I love there product but the service dept was a nightmare. I had the bus in at 8am and at 11 the tech came back to me that he could not find anything wrong with the computer module and he put in new software but could not find thereason for no 12v to it as he had checked all the wiring in the harness and the head tech said it looks like a Cummins problem. I said the thing ran great and no mention on my vms about a fault so what gives? He said the top guy was again looking at it and 2 hrs later he said it is a broken wire by the fuse and he showed me. Sure enough so I said ok cut it out and replace the old 3" with new and join it 1!! Oh my god, no we do not do that I will have the sale rep come and tell you what a new harness is worth !!! 1 hr later he said $278.00 for it plus $188.00 labour to install!!!!!!! I said how about a 50c butt connecter? No way so I told him to put it all back the way they found it and I will do it. We got out of there at 3.30pm that was 7 hrs later. I drove it out the shop and parked to fix. 10mins later we are on the way with it working fine. Luckily they only charge $89 for diagnostic work instead of the rate x 7, which would have been $600 for nothing.
I was a little mad with them but at least I knew all was in good shape. It was great to have that added boost again and coming thru Palm desert to Phoenix was a breeze. I am amazed at fuel consumption even wioth the problem at first. As close as i can calculate we have got 10.2 and possibly as much as 11mpg but will figure it out at end of trip. Cheapest deisel so far is here in Phx at $3.85, most expensive Calif at $4.45.
John

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #22 – November 18, 2011, 08:32:22 pm

John,

Glad you got it fixed. Too bad they can't do what the customer wants. One of the reasons I don't ever take anything to a shop. Worked at several as a kid so not surprised that nothings changed.

Had a couple of bolts come out of drive shaft while traveling down the west coast of Mexico a few years ago. Limped into a Ford assembly plant. They put it up on a rack, installed new bolts and sent me on my way. No charge!

Have a good trip.

Pierce

Re: Banks Stinger

Reply #23 – November 18, 2011, 09:36:05 pm

Too funny... I was impressed with the mileage of my 93 with banks. 10 mpg was not hard.

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