Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #25 – November 17, 2011, 05:01:31 pm Dave, I don't think my 6V92 has that 3/4" fitting under the thermostat housing. I guess it might there but I still can't bend and twist to get a real good look at that part of the engine. Peter, I'm no diesel expert but I played with a lot of two stroke motorcycle engines. I may be wrong but I don't think my Detroit has valves does it? Are you trying to punk me like the guy in high school that told me there was a very good job available at the diesel truck shop changing spark plugs and muffler bearings in the diesel truck engines. Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #26 – November 17, 2011, 05:32:02 pm Kent, Normally I would agree, however you bet, these Detroit Diesels sure do have exhaust valves, not intake valves, they have ports in the cylinder walls, when the piston drops below the ports the supercharger has pressure that blows air into the cylinder while the exhaust valves are open, then on the up stroke the valves close and before the piston closes off the ports, air pressure fills the cylinder, then the piston comes up and your back into the ole squeeze bang thing.Your engine has 4 exhaust valves per cylinder. even my ole 12V had 48 exhaust valves, 4 per cylinder. Maybe I or Pierce can find a good pix of how they work and post it here for you 2 stroke guys. Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #27 – November 17, 2011, 05:40:21 pm Some pix of cylinder and head for DDC 2 stroker Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #28 – November 17, 2011, 06:07:47 pm Quote from: Kent Speers – November 17, 2011, 05:01:31 pmPeter, I'm no diesel expert but I played with a lot of two stroke motorcycle engines. I may be wrong but I don't think my Detroit has valves does it? Are you trying to punk me like the guy in high school that told me there was a very good job available at the diesel truck shop changing spark plugs and muffler bearings in the diesel truck engines. I'm sure glad Dave M. answered that one... Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #29 – November 17, 2011, 06:21:00 pm I'd love to see the jake design for no exhaust valves... Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #30 – November 17, 2011, 06:34:11 pm I will get off this subject after I mention the heater in the thermostat housing on Kents engine is sending most of the heat energy into the radiator, as it opens the thermostat and then the hot water goes to the radiator Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #31 – November 17, 2011, 06:36:42 pm Looks like I'll have to update my signature to6V-92TA DDEC Parlor Coach 350HP Series 92 24v Dave: about that oil cooler 10" down from the thermostat. I've enclosed a pic of my engine from the lower drivers side. Is that box my oil cooler? If not any idea what that housing is? The green hose coming out goes to my transmission cooler. I was pretty surprised that it was water cooled. The second & third picture is the transmission cooler just in case anyone is interested.Since the block heater is in the thermostat housing I assume it will cause the thermostat to open. Logic tells me that when I go to start the engine the water pump will send cold antifreeze from the radiator throughout the engine. Doesn't that put me one step forward and 2 back?Kent: Glad to hear you had good luck with your block heater. Wish I could say the same. Thought I'd add that my block heater is set up exactly like Kent's.see yaken Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #32 – November 17, 2011, 06:41:22 pm Thanks Dave M for the photos, ain't that a thing of beauty. Peter, shows what I know.Dave H, I thought Detroit had used a hyper dynamic supersquizamater in lieu of exhaust valves. I'm pretty sure that's what the Allison Transmission Retarder design was based on. Ken, you may have a problem with the heater. Mine started the second I turned the key. This afternoon with the block heater off and at 45 degrees it cranked for at least 15 seconds before catching. Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #33 – November 17, 2011, 06:45:16 pm Kent: The heater is working. When I touch the return hose to the radiator it's almost hot. It was just installed back in August.see yaken Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #34 – November 17, 2011, 06:52:40 pm OK, finally got some action on my "intake valve" question. Wondered how long it would take but the PDF I posted was a good clue. The early Detroits had 2 exhaust valves per cylinder but as technology advanced, 4 exhaust valves were fitted. So, when you adjust valves, you are setting four per cylinder but easy as no engine rotation is necessary once the injector has been depressed. 4 valves per cylinder also means less weight so higher rpms are possible without valve float and having to resort to super strong valve springs that shorten lifter/cam life.Here is a good read for 6V-92 fans from a marine engine forum: 6V92 engine questionsThese were and are a huge powerboat favorite as they are small and put out a lot of power. 624 HP @ 2600 rpm in some but a more reliable 535 to 550 HP in most installations. They use max power to get the boat up on a plane and then around 1900 to cruise. So you can see that they are loafing at 350 HP in our rigs. They seem to go through turbos every 800 hours or so but even at the 535 figure, the engines last a long time. I think the GV side radiator location/size limits the power to just about the 350 HP we have. With an additional nose radiator, a lot more power could be used. Boats don't have to worry about the heat. You can also see why there is not a big worry if an Allison accidentally downshifts and the engine overspeeds.On the largest, most powerful internal combustion engines, a set of electric fans replace the supercharger but are turned off once the engine is running and the turbo is pumping air through the giant intake ports. 109,000 horsepower, over 50 percent efficiency and naturally... two cycles. Forgot to say, these are made for container ships and made in Finland. Here is a good site for specs and photos. They cost $8600 an hour in fuel!!! World’s Biggest Engine - Most Powerful Engine – Emma Maersk’sCAT now owns EMD a.k.a. (or other way around) Electro-Motive Diesel. They recently won the largest locomotive contract in history with Union Pacific Railroad. Here is a interesting link for 2 cycle fans to EMD: Electro Motive Diesel General Electric does 4 cycles and most east coast Amtrak engines are GE. Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #35 – November 17, 2011, 10:33:07 pm Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – November 17, 2011, 06:52:40 pmHere is a good read for 6V-92 fans from a marine engine forum: 6V92 engine questionsWOW over 600HP out of a little 6V92! That's amazing. Having to rebuild after 500 hours would kinda suck though. I am rethinking how I go uphill. Previously I've keep the RPM between 1500 to 1700 or least tried to. I think I'll try going to 1900 or maybe even 2000 RPM. It makes sense that the extra air going through the engine would help it run a little cooler. The marine guys really drove home how important it is to not let the engine run hot. I'll be watching my temp gauge even closer now! Seems like everywhere I want to go there's a big hill in the way.see yaken Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #36 – November 18, 2011, 01:19:13 am Ken,Yes, the marine forum gives a really good insight in what a Detroit likes and doesn't like. Excellent reading. What the forum didn't say was a lot of marine diesels don't have removable liners so they can easily become "throw away" engines with much of a failure.After we bought ours, Gaylie had to get back to work so for the first couple of days, I ran at 2100 in 4th (about 82 mph) where I could get away with it. Have always driven Detroits like I stole them. Have to admit, the Allison does a good job of not letting you bog the engine by just shifting down into the next lower gear. Heading uphill, I like to keep it at 2000-2100 unless the temp gauge starts to move up and then I drop a gear. On long grades on scorching days, I have had to pull over to the slow lane and climb in second gear. Lower RPM fine if sightseeing with light load on the engine. Even with the DDEC, I will sometimes back off the throttle a little to reduce the black smoke if visible at high altitude.Never let the engine "hunt" back and forth between 3rd and 4th. Just shift down, keep RPM up and relax until reaching top of the grade.At 175K on your engine, It should be running fine. I have 440K orig miles on my MB 300SD and it starts instantly in any temp, uses no oil and is just as fast as new so your DD should be able to easily double the miles. Incidentally, an in frame overhaul kit with new liners, pistons, bearings, gaskets, etc is only about $2K for the 6V-92TA. My rule of thumb on any HD diesel is to keep RPM up within 10% of max. anytime the engine is pulling hard. Lower RPM means less oil pressure, especially on an older engine and that means less oil sprayed up into the pistons to cool them plus the water pump circulates more water the faster it turns. Idle a Detroit to cool it down before shutting down if it has been pulling much but never otherwise for more than a couple of minutes. Low oil pressure at idle will not cool pistons and the crowns (top) will expand after 8 minutes or so possibly causing premature wear. The Greyhounds you hear idling have a fast idle switch that brings RPM up to 1000 where they have good oil pressure and can run there for hours.Before trying a very cold start, use the hand primer pump for at least a minute before cranking engine. See if that makes a difference. Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #37 – November 18, 2011, 09:55:36 am Pierce,Thanks for the info & advice. Especially on idling. I have let the engine idle for extended times when stopping for lunch, filling up, restroom breaks, etc. My thinking I was saving the starter by not having to use it as much at the expense of a little fuel. Looks like it's probably at the expense of a little fuel and the life of the engine! Penny wise pound foolish...I posted some pics of the lower drivers side of my engine earlier. Is your set up the same way? That is with water cooled transmission? Do you know if the housing in the pic is the oil cooler?see yaken Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #38 – November 18, 2011, 01:05:53 pm Ken,Will take a look at mine when the weather clears. Love to look at snow but hate to have it here for long as it makes our driveway into an Olympic Ski Jump but with no runoff at the bottom, just a small ravine with a creek. (wish the smileys had a skull and crossbones).Most cars with automatic transmissions have a heat exchanger in bottom of the radiator. The idea is to keep the higher transmission temps under control, especially when used in severe use applications that will produce more heat like towing a trailer, etc.Foretravel has put a heat exchanger on the driver's side of the transmission where the engine coolant can help keep the transmission fluid below temperatures that would damage seals, etc. and shorten the life of the transmission. You probably have noticed how the transmission temp follows the engine temp pretty closely except when the torque converter is not locked up as in city driving using first and part of second gear or on steep hills in the low gears. In these cases, the fluid temperature climbs rapidly and you can see this reflected on the dash gauge. The heat exchanger just can't keep up with the heat generated by the transmission slippage in the torque converter. Also a reason I back up my driveway as it REALLY strained in first with the trans gauge heading up rapidly. (reverse ratio is over 6 to 1 so it will idle up most any slope)See the excellent chart on transmission temperature vs. transmission life at: Transmission temperature/failure chart.Any coach with a Detroit should have a VHS tape or DVD with all the do's and don'ts in it. Actually, all diesels should have the same as they all have their little quirks. Might be nice to have one explaining all the functions, switches, etc. in our coach. Like Kent, I just found out the steering wheel telescopes. The horn button looked pretty hefty so I gave it a twist and voila.We phased in diesels after a long history of Hall-Scotts, Waukeshas and Macks. The factory sent along reps to put on seminars on the care and feeding of the 8V-71s. It was incredible to be able to hit the starter buttons (2) and have it running before you could get your finger off. Instant full power and off we went. I was instantly in love.I have posted this site before but will include it as Tejas puts everything the factory had to say with millions of miles of over the road experience. Some good interactive photos of what can happen when you don't use Delo 100 SAE 40 but a 15-40 instead and what it does to pistons/liners, etc. Some of the material only applies to the older mechanical engines but enough to our DDEC engines to make it an important read.Detroit Diesel 2 Cycle 2 Stroke Engine operating Oil Tips A good read for anyone with a diesel RV as it has a lot of tire tips, general information.Tejas passed away fairly recently but his son has taken over the business. I had a chance to talk to him for 30 minutes or so. If not busy, he is a wealth of information. Putting together a case for replacing the hydraulic 6 rib recommended belt with the proper 8 rib belt. He was in agreement and related a recent incident with a Newell Coach that lost it's hydraulic belt, overheated, somehow got oil on the turbo and caught the insulation above the turbo on fire. Owner put it out but is raising the bed several inches and installing fire resistive insulation above the turbo. Interesting.Waiting for a call back from Gates Rubber about recommended belts and will post when I have it all together along with my 7 second hydraulic belt replacement procedure. Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #39 – November 18, 2011, 02:25:43 pm Thanks Pierce for another great link. Looks like I'll be doing an oil change here pretty soon. I just had it changed in August so I think I'll wait till this spring. I'll have to pull out the receipt but I'm pretty sure they used 10w-40. Hmmm... seems like the 40w oil would not help my cold weather starting unless I use the hub cap charcoal method. I may be in the market for one of those magnetic oil pan heaters I guess unless you come up with something with your new block heater.see yaken Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #40 – November 18, 2011, 09:30:25 pm Another update on cold starts. This morning before leaving for Kansas City, I turned on the block heater for 45 minutes. It was 45 degrees outside so I didn't really think I needed the heater but I wanted to see how quickly it would start with just 45 minutes of heating. I had to crank the engine four times for about 10 seconds per try to get the engine to catch. I started with two cylinders and took about a minute to get all cylinders firing and idling smoothly. I now think one must leave the block heater on for several hours or overnight to get sufficient heat to make the engine start quickly. Keep in mind that the engine started immediately and idled smoothly at 25 degrees when the heater was on all night. Dave M, I have given some thought to "cooking the thermostat" with the block heater. My Cummins 5.9 on my U225 also had the block heater right under the thermostat housing. I can't imagine that the block heater would be any harder on the thermostat than the heat from the engine and that both Cummins and Detroit would put the heater there if it would create problems. Also, thermostats are cheap and I hate that white smoke. Quote Selected
Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel Reply #41 – November 18, 2011, 10:33:09 pm Yeah, the white smoke is really embarrassing. Seems like the people inside cut down old growth redwoods or kill spotted owls. I did watch a Cummins logging truck with variable valve timing start up last week. Vertical stacks with massive smoke and huge smoke rings up to 50 feet every 30 seconds or so. Bad noises from under the hood for the first 5 minutes.Will adjust my valves this weekend and post if they are tight. Thanks for the info. Won't plan on 45 minutes of generator doing the job. Quote Selected
Topic: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel