Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

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Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

November 15, 2011, 12:35:40 pm

My tired old 6V92 (170,000 miles) doesn't like the cold at all. We where at Tiger Run north of Breckenridge, CO last week with 15° weather overnight. I had the engine heater on all night but still had a lot of trouble getting it started. Used the boost switch and engine turned over rapidly but only got white smoke out the tail pipe and no ignition. Cranked for 20 to 30 seconds (I've read not to hold the start switch on for more then 30 seconds) on each try waiting a minute or so between attempts. I could hear maybe one cylinder starting but when I let go of the start switch it just died.

I put an electric heater directly under the oil pan and left it on for a couple of hours. The sun came up and the temperature came up a couple of degrees during that time. I was able to start after a few tries. I did hold the start switch on for more than 30 seconds once I heard a couple of cylinders start to fire. Was worried I was going to be stuck for the winter. Not that that would have been too bad of a thing. Tiger Run is a nice park but being right down the street from Breckenridge ski resort the rate skyrockets during the ski season!

I just had the block heater replaced this summer and when I feel the pipe above the heater it's pretty warm. I'm wondering if it's location could be the problem. It's high on the engine and convection would feed the hot antifreeze into the top of the radiator instead of circulating through the engine. See photo.

Anyone else out there with a 6V92 have any advice? Is your block heater in same location as mine? Should I buy some ether? ( for me not the engine! )

see ya
ken

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #1 – November 15, 2011, 02:19:18 pm

All the block heaters I've seen on the silver 92s were on the bottom right side of the block (heat rises, even if it is water). But I have never seen a silver 92 in a coach before, so I don't know if that makes any difference or not. We used ether if the block heater was bad. That got us started and to the shop to get a new block heater installed. Temps were well below your 15 degrees.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #2 – November 15, 2011, 04:59:38 pm

8V-92 DDC has a great port for block heater and its simple, on top of oil cooler the line to the block has a threaded plug, there is a 1500 W heater that screws into this thread, works great, much better than just heating one thermostat housing as in pix.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #3 – November 15, 2011, 05:23:36 pm

Quote from: kenhat – November 15, 2011, 12:35:40 pm

My tired old 6V92 (170,000 miles) doesn't like the cold at all. We where at Tiger Run north of Breckenridge, CO last week with 15° weather overnight. I had the engine heater on all night but still had a lot of trouble getting it started. Used the boost switch and engine turned over rapidly but only got white smoke out the tail pipe and no ignition. Cranked for 20 to 30 seconds (I've read not to hold the start switch on for more then 30 seconds) on each try waiting a minute or so between attempts. I could hear maybe one cylinder starting but when I let go of the start switch it just died.

I put an electric heater directly under the oil pan and left it on for a couple of hours. The sun came up and the temperature came up a couple of degrees during that time. I was able to start after a few tries. I did hold the start switch on for more than 30 seconds once I heard a couple of cylinders start to fire. Was worried I was going to be stuck for the winter. Not that that would have been too bad of a thing. Tiger Run is a nice park but being right down the street from Breckenridge ski resort the rate skyrockets during the ski season!

I just had the block heater replaced this summer and when I feel the pipe above the heater it's pretty warm. I'm wondering if it's location could be the problem. It's high on the engine and convection would feed the hot antifreeze into the top of the radiator instead of circulating through the engine. See photo.

Anyone else out there with a 6V92 have any advice? Is your block heater in same location as mine? Should I buy some ether? ( for me not the engine! )

see ya
ken

I just had my engine block heater replaced at the Detroit shop here in OKC. The said they had never seen a block heater in the thermostat area of a 6V92 before. It would normally be installed right behind the alternator. The placement of the alternator is why it was moved up to the thermostat area. Convection may be an issue with your starting problems but I'm betting it is more a combination of the cold temps and the altitude. When we were in Angle Fire, altitude 8000 feet, I tried to start U300 at about 28 degrees and it smoked enough to kill all of the skeeters in New Mexico. It kept spewing white smoke all the way out of the campground and a mile down the road, then the smoke went away. My block heater was broken at the time. As soon as I got back to a reasonable altitude, it started and ran perfectly.

The guys at Detroit and Wayne in the shop at Foretravel said when cold the 6V92's will start on two cylinders and the other cylinders will kick in as the engine warms up. The white smoke is normal under cold start and or high altitude conditions. It is my understanding that the DDEC senses the low temps and adjusts the starting sequence accordingly to handle the extra strain of the environmental conditions. The smoke may be embarrassing but it is apparently normal.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #4 – November 15, 2011, 05:31:55 pm

Kent, White smoke, Yes normal, but not needed, a 1500 heater in the tube between ol cooler and block will do a very fine job of heating the engine, and they are simple and cheap, or a win-win.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #5 – November 15, 2011, 06:14:03 pm

Quote from: Dave M – November 15, 2011, 05:31:55 pm

Kent, White smoke, Yes normal, but not needed, a 1500 heater in the tube between ol cooler and block will do a very fine job of heating the engine, and they are simple and cheap, or a win-win.

Tell me more!!! However, I'm not sure even that will help at high altitude.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #6 – November 15, 2011, 07:32:01 pm

Kent, First make certain your engine has the 3/4" pipe plug in the oil cooler housing neck, it is a vertical casting connecting the oil cooler to the block, behind and below the water pump. This 3/4" pipe plug needs to be removed and the Kim Hot Start DD8L-101 heater inserted, it is a 1000 Watt 120 Volt block heater, List price is $103.40
These work great, used these on both the 8V-71 & 8V-92 DDC engines with good results.
Unknown how difficult it is to get access to that area on your engine on the U300.
It is a simple job, no need to drain coolant, just remove the pipe plug and insert the heater quickly, you will loose less than a pint of antifreeze.
This makes for a sanifary and great heater location.
I buy heaters from Kim Hot Start by the case, just not this part number.
A drawing is attached of this heater.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #7 – November 15, 2011, 08:03:03 pm

Dave: Thanks for the info. I'll be checking this out. Now if I can just find the oil cooler...

Kent: I'm sure altitude is an issue (Tiger Run is a 9000') but I've had good luck starting all summer running about Colorado at similar altitudes. Anything above 30° with the block heater = starting easily albeit with smoking out my neighbors for several minutes. I've started apologizing to my neighbors the night before we take off.

I need to be able to start in pretty cold conditions since Dori likes the snow and I like to ski. On a clear night in the mountains -20° is not unusual. If I can't get this resolved we will just have to head south for the winter! The sacrifices we make for the RV lifestyle.

see ya
ken

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #8 – November 15, 2011, 08:43:09 pm

Dave,

Thanks for the oil cooler tip. Wonder if the hard starting is a result of lower compression ratio on the TA compared to 19 to 1 on the non-turbo engines? My old bus with an mechanical 8V-71 started well in all temps. I have the same problem that everyone above has. Even in the teens, the engine spins at almost idle speed on the starter. I usually get four cylinders to fire after a few seconds. After another few seconds, the fifth cylinder fires and sometimes like in Yellowstone at 13 degrees, the last cylinder takes two or three minutes to start firing. All this time, I have clouds of foul smelling white smoke behind me. As soon as I can move it, I try to get out of the campground ahead of the rocks thrown by the tent campers.

Would just throw in a new set of injectors if they were the same price as the mechanical engines (about $50/each). You can buy a used 6V-92TA engine for the cost of the electronic injectors. Going to pull my offending injector and see what cleaning it does.

Since we live in the mountains and most of our camping is at high elevation, I made up a propane burner to stick under the engine. Going to put snaps around the engine door and then put a cover on to trap the heat in from the propane burner. Will let everyone know how it works since we all seem to have the same problem in cold weather winter starts.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #9 – November 15, 2011, 09:12:05 pm

Hi Pierce, First, I am only experienced on the mechanical DDC engines, not the DDEC versions, however, I firmly believe the heater in the oil cooler neck does wonders as it heats from a low position allowing the heat to go upwards, unlike that one in the thermostat housing, that has to be a joke I think. The other versions of acceptable heater setups would be the unit bolted in on the right side (as you look at the rear or coach) under the exhaust manifold there is a square plate w/4 cap screws, remove the plate and insert the heater for that slot, why I prefer the screw in model on oil cooler neck, the other would be the tank type, but they are a pain, lots of hose and possible leaks.
I used the oil cooler neck version on all my toys, 8V-71, 12V-71 and 8V-92 with great results.
Slow starting on the 92 series as you describe would lead me into the valve adjustment as I have no clue to the electronic injector setup, adjustment if any. I have avoided the DDEC like the plague.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #10 – November 15, 2011, 10:10:02 pm

Dave,

Think you hit it on the head as using the block heater for an hour did nothing for starting. The low position would let the heat travel up as you said. Would be nice to have a couple of heaters otherwise most of the 10Ks is going to waste in the morning. Will take a look at the oil cooler/exchanger and post photos if it has the 3/4" plug.

Think I will adjust the valves this week. What was that intake valve setting again?

.

Thanks again Dave

Pierce

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #11 – November 15, 2011, 10:28:23 pm

If my mind has not gone too far, it should be .015 on valves, I have the DDC took rack kit and use the go/nogo gauge think it is a .015/.016.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #12 – November 16, 2011, 07:01:42 pm

Quote from: Dave M – November 15, 2011, 07:32:01 pm

Kent, First make certain your engine has the 3/4" pipe plug in the oil cooler housing neck, it is a vertical casting connecting the oil cooler to the block, behind and below the water pump. This 3/4" pipe plug needs to be removed and the Kim Hot Start DD8L-101 heater inserted, it is a 1000 Watt 120 Volt block heater, List price is $103.40.
A drawing is attached of this heater.

Dave, thanks for the info. That drawing looks just like the heater they just installed and unless I misunderstand the location, it sounds like the same installation. The type of heater that uses the 4 bolt plate goes on the right side of the engine but you cant use it on my coach because the alternator is in the way.

Quote from: kenhat – November 15, 2011, 08:03:03 pm

I need to be able to start in pretty cold conditions since Dori likes the snow and I like to ski. On a clear night in the mountains -20° is not unusual. If I can't get this resolved we will just have to head south for the winter! The sacrifices we make for the RV lifestyle.

see ya
ken

Ken, we will be looking for you in Southern Arizona. Quartszite is in late January.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #13 – November 16, 2011, 10:41:22 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – November 16, 2011, 07:01:42 pm

Quote from: Dave M – November 15, 2011, 07:32:01 pm
Kent, First make certain your engine has the 3/4" pipe plug in the oil cooler housing neck, it is a vertical casting connecting the oil cooler to the block, behind and below the water pump. This 3/4" pipe plug needs to be removed and the Kim Hot Start DD8L-101 heater inserted, it is a 1000 Watt 120 Volt block heater, List price is $103.40.
A drawing is attached of this heater.

Dave, thanks for the info. That drawing looks just like the heater they just installed and unless I misunderstand the location, it sounds like the same installation. The type of heater that uses the 4 bolt plate goes on the right side of the engine but you cant use it on my coach because the alternator is in the way.

Quote from: kenhat – November 15, 2011, 08:03:03 pm
I need to be able to start in pretty cold conditions since Dori likes the snow and I like to ski. On a clear night in the mountains -20° is not unusual. If I can't get this resolved we will just have to head south for the winter! The sacrifices we make for the RV lifestyle.

see ya
ken

Ken, we will be looking for you in Southern Arizona. Quartszite is in late January.

Kent,

10 seconds after reading Dave's tip on the block heater, I did a search on Ebay and found a new 92 series 1500 watt block heater for the 3/4" pipe thread into the oil cooler. $35 new delivered. I think other block heaters may be exactly the same, in fact, using the Detroit Diesel part number, I found it listed for a CAT also. I am going to install it as soon as it arrives from Salt Lake City and will take photos and give a review as it is below freezing at night here now. How about you do the same? Snow forecast this weekend so it should get a good test.

Yes, the alternator blocks the other possibility. I did see a couple of plugs in the head that might work also but probably would need a shorter, lower wattage unit. 1500 watts should heat enough for a start in 30 to 45 minutes depending.

Also going to set valves at the same time. Excellent PDF at: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fww2.justanswer.com%2Fuploads%2FJCTech012%2F2011-01-06_205248_v92_topset.pdf&ei=DYDETsLLLrCOigK8kpHcBQ&usg=AFQjCNG_GL_1DZoWCxujElWvg_ocdr97eQ&sig2=VclvE_2WR8m3-ctdYVp_GQ

Has photos and explains it really well on just one page. Will post what my clearances are.

Planning on Quartzsite in January.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #14 – November 16, 2011, 11:22:54 pm

Pierce: What part number did you use to search ebay? I tried the DD8L-101 from Dave's pdf and it turned up a 1000W not 1500W. $35 looks like a very good deal indeed!

Kent & Pierce: Don't think I'll be at Quartszite this winter at least our plans don't include that yet but you never know especially if January is particularly bad...

see ya
ken

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #15 – November 16, 2011, 11:43:48 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – November 15, 2011, 08:43:09 pm

Since we live in the mountains and most of our camping is at high elevation, I made up a propane burner to stick under the engine.

That reminds me of when my father-in-law left upstate NY for good. It was the blizzard of 1977 and he was suppose to leave with a load for Florida. It was like 20 below and the Cummins Formula 290 would not start. He tried everything, but no go. He went to a local department store and brought a aluminum snow "flying saucer". It is a round dish that you ride down a hill on snow. He also got some charcoal and starter fluid. He put the whole bag of charcoal in the "flying saucer" and soaked it with the starter fluid and lit it. Once it the flames died of and the coals were good and hot he slide it under the International's engine and went back into the house. Half a hour later he went back out and started it right up. He left with his load for Ft. Pierce, Florida and never can back in the winter time. Signed the house over to his youngest daughter. He died in Ft. Pierce.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #16 – November 17, 2011, 12:01:25 am

Quote from: kenhat – November 16, 2011, 11:22:54 pm

Pierce: What part number did you use to search ebay? I tried the DD8L-101 from Dave's pdf and it turned up a 1000W not 1500W. $35 looks like a very good deal indeed!

Kent & Pierce: Don't think I'll be at Quartszite this winter at least our plans don't include that yet but you never know especially if January is particularly bad...

see ya
ken

Ken,

Here is the page on ebay: Detroit block heater 3307672 | eBay

Let me know if the page loads as it may not after I bought it but the part number is 3307672. Several companies make heaters like this. Here it is with the same part number but will also fit CATs. 1500 watts listed in specs. See at: Block Heater #3307672 Caterillar 3117 on eBid United States

They all look the same with 3/4" pipe fitting and about a 6" element. Can't imagine much of a difference but will measure when mine arrives.

Pat,

Have read about truckers keeping a bag of charcoal and a hubcap in a bin. That was my idea with the small propane burner with a hose to the regulator on a 5 gal propane tank.

Pierce

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #17 – November 17, 2011, 12:20:08 am

Thanks Pierce. I'll keep an eye out on ebay. I'll also keep an eye out for a hubcap on the side of the road!

see ya
ken

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #18 – November 17, 2011, 12:39:17 am

Quote from: PatC – November 16, 2011, 11:43:48 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – November 15, 2011, 08:43:09 pm
Since we live in the mountains and most of our camping is at high elevation, I made up a propane burner to stick under the engine.
That reminds me of when my father-in-law left upstate NY for good. It was the blizzard of 1977 and he was suppose to leave with a load for Florida. It was like 20 below and the Cummins Formula 290 would not start. He tried everything, but no go. He went to a local department store and brought a aluminum snow "flying saucer". It is a round dish that you ride down a hill on snow. He also got some charcoal and starter fluid. He put the whole bag of charcoal in the "flying saucer" and soaked it with the starter fluid and lit it. Once it the flames died of and the coals were good and hot he slide it under the International's engine and went back into the house. Half a hour later he went back out and started it right up. He left with his load for Ft. Pierce, Florida and never can back in the winter time. Signed the house over to his youngest daughter. He died in Ft. Pierce.

Think I was in upstate New York in 1977. Had picked up a WW horse trailer and was headed through Buffalo, NY on the way to PA to fill the trailer with antiques. Started snowing and I just kept ahead of it. Snow did not stop in Buffalo for months and totaled 17 feet. Pulled it with my MB 220D. Last snow storm was in Texas on that trip and I dropped snow off the car/trailer into California. Bad winter.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #19 – November 17, 2011, 10:14:04 am

The valve adjusting info for the Detroit 92 series is at: http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/JCTech012/2011-01-06_205248_v92_topset.pdf One tight exhaust valve could keep a cylinder from firing until it starts making contact with the valve seat.

Adjustment should be very easy except for the contortions you have to go through to get to the valve covers.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #20 – November 17, 2011, 10:25:09 am

UPDATE!!!

This morning it was 25 degrees. At that temperature it used to take 3 to 5 minutes of coaxing to get my 6V92 running with no block heater. As I mentioned I had a new block heater installed at the Detroit shop recently and just tested it this morning. I turned on the block heater last night and at 6:00 AM this morning I pressed the fuel pedal down 1/3 and turned the key. It started immediately and was running on all 6 cylinders and idling perfectly within 10 seconds.

This was a 1500 watt heather supplied by United Engines the local Detroit shop. I is located on the drivers side of the engine below the thermostat housing. It mounts on the left side right above the words Block Heater.

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #21 – November 17, 2011, 03:56:47 pm

Kent, Great picture, I am saddened to see it located in the thermostat housing, it is cooking the thermostat.

IF they had installed it in the oil cooler nect, that is about 10" below that thermostat housing, it would better heat the entire water jacket, not just the top of engine. Maybe there is no 3/4 pipe plug in that nexk. ? It surely is a little more difficult to get into, but the RIGHT place.

I am not surprised the engine started nicely this morning. I fear sooner or later you will need the thermostat in that housing as it is getting cooked.
FWIW

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #22 – November 17, 2011, 04:01:37 pm

Pierce, Gotta tell you that the suggested +/- .004 range for the .016 valve clearence gave me a chuckle, maybe that was a mis print, God I hope it was. Other wise between .012 and .020 would be great, wonder why they spec .016 then ? With those numbers it is no wonder why some engines run great and some just run so-so.
Another reason I laugh so much, life if funny sometimes

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #23 – November 17, 2011, 04:20:19 pm

Question: As we all know that heat will cause these valve clearances to get smaller, would you opt to set the valve clearance at the higher end (.020) so as to ensure complete valve closure? Or, is .012 good enough to ensure all valves close all the way all the time?

Re: Cold weather starting on a Detroit Diesel

Reply #24 – November 17, 2011, 04:47:03 pm

.016 valve gap and if you want to get real picky, do not forget to check and set the bridge clearence too. All at normal operating temp.

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