Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Topic: Freshwater tank removal, help!!! (Read 1597 times) previous topic - next topic

Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

December 13, 2011, 10:02:56 pm

I posted about this in my "another bulkhead separation story, part II", but I got no response. On the off chance that I am not plowing into unknown territory to members of the most experienced Foretravel community in the known universe, I am starting a new thread, which will hopefully give me a clue on how to proceed. Failing that, maybe just some sad violin music... I will start off quoting my previous post (so I don't have to type it all over again, and then include some pictures for your entertainment (you will feel so good that you aren't me), and add what little I discovered today between rain showers and darkness.
"Well I thought I was about ten minutes away from sliding the freshwater tank out the passenger side of our 99' U270... three hours later, no joy and I had to give up because of darkness, threat of rain, and general discouragement:( I took off the trim that holds the compartment door latch, strut support (drilled out the rivets), and the weatherstripping. That trim is screwed into a piece of angle iron about. 1/8" thick and both the trim piece for the right side of the utility bay door and the forward vertical part of the passenger side wheel well covering (fender) is anchored to it. Problem is, the fresh water tank will not make it past the lip of the angle iron, yet I can't seem to see how the angle iron is held in place. It seems that it may just be held by caulking yet, somehow it seems too firmly anchored to be just caulking adhesion. The FW tank itself has bulging sides and it may be just applying some pig grease (or a liberal dose of WD40) and the application of enough force from behind (water heater side) might do the trick, but it is so tight! I don't want to damage the tank, but it has to come out! Help!!! Anybody who has done this or knows something about it, I am all EARS!"

I learned today that the black metal piece on the aft drivers side of the utility compartment is tacked (welded) to the sheet metal bulkhead behind it. Since the fiberglass sheet and foam insulation in front of the sheet metal of the aft bulkhead covers the perpendicular part of the angle iron (looks to be 1.5" x 1.5" X 1/8" angle iron), I conclude that it is not meant to come out. Since I can't believe that the vertical compartment divider to the right of the FW tank which separates it from the grey water and blackwater side of the utility compartment is meant to be moved either (it is bolted in from above and below with roloks), I must conclude that the tank is either meant to never be removed without major expense, or it must be squeezable enough to force past the flange on the right side of the compartment.

Any comments or observations? Am I just SOL? I guess I can cut back the vertical fiberglass skin and grind the welds off the angle iron, but that just seems like so much unnecessary work to achieve a simple aim, namely to remove the freshwater tank! It obviously can't come out of the passenger side, the steel framework that supports the water heater is welded in there, not to mention the same constraint on the aft side of the compartment is there too, presumably also spot welded in place.

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #1 – December 13, 2011, 10:22:23 pm

When all else fails reach out to James Triana or Mark Harvey...

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #2 – December 13, 2011, 10:24:55 pm

I am certain there are others with more expertise than me but it sure looks like its time to get the steel cutter out. How you put it back together still stumps me. Are you sure it has to come out?

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #3 – December 13, 2011, 10:33:21 pm

No, I am not sure... just sure that it will require more force than I am comfortable risking to get it out with out removing the flange. I am considering trying to put a bit of vacuum on the tank to collapse it a little... sounds desperate, I KNOW!

Anyway, thanks for reading my long winded post!
Don

Quote from: Kent Speers – December 13, 2011, 10:24:55 pm

I am certain there are others with more expertise than me but it sure looks like its time to get the steel cutter out. How you put it back together still stumps me. Are you sure it has to come out?

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #4 – December 13, 2011, 10:44:30 pm

The vacuum idea sounds very creative however as suggested by Peter, contact Mark Harvey at Foretravel.

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #5 – December 13, 2011, 10:46:48 pm

Still being a relative newbie (never having been to the mothership...), is James at extreme? Anyway, I may just give them a call.

Thanks, Don

Quote from: Peter & Beth – December 13, 2011, 10:22:23 pm

When all else fails reach out to James Triana or Mark Harvey...

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #6 – December 13, 2011, 10:53:24 pm

Just ignore this text. I'm just pushing the phone number down so JT doesn't get hit with a bunch of phone spam/scammers. Guests can read the first line or so of a post. As you were Michelle

They are both at FOT. This is James number: 800-955-6226 x259

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #7 – December 13, 2011, 10:57:11 pm

Another member with a 98' 36' U270 responded to a PM from me (I found in search that he had removed his in order to get at the water heater element), and he said he was able to squeeze it out past. I wonder if mine might be a skosh tighter in the compartment. Sounds like I am talking about pants!

Oh well, trying to keep my sense of humor intact...
Don

Quote from: Kent Speers – December 13, 2011, 10:44:30 pm

The vacuum idea sounds very creative however as suggested by Peter, contact Mark Harvey at Foretravel.

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #8 – December 13, 2011, 10:59:28 pm

Thanks Peter,
I guess it couldn't hurt. I am not used to the idea that any manufacturer would actively support out of warranty 2nd hand owners of a vehicle...
Don

Quote from: Peter & Beth – December 13, 2011, 10:53:24 pm

They are both at FOT. This is James number: 800-955-6226 x259

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #9 – December 13, 2011, 11:03:23 pm

Remember that you are a Motorcade member. If you're not, you can get a one year free MC Membership by virtue of having purchased a Foreravel. This is who you should contact: 'susan.king@foretravel.com'

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #10 – December 13, 2011, 11:05:44 pm

Just some text to push the phone number out of view of guests.
Michelle

Don,
Here's Susan's phone number...
936-564-8367 ext. 228

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #11 – December 13, 2011, 11:11:20 pm

Thanks Peter, we are already Motorcaders:)

Quote from: Peter & Beth – December 13, 2011, 11:05:44 pm

Don,
Here's Susan's phone number...
936-564-8367 ext. 228

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #12 – December 13, 2011, 11:51:16 pm

On our 32-foot cruising sailboat I had a fuel tank (welded steel) become defective. It had been mounted in the engine area (I hesitate to call it a "room") and then the deck and cabin assembly (fiberglass boat) put down and fastened together. Taking the deck off was not an option... and the tank would not come out any other way. So I laid cushions on the engine and used half a hacksaw blade wrapped in electrician's tape to cut it apart by hand. Fortunately the cockpit sole was designed to be removed to allow removal of the engine and I could cut big enough chunks to remove it that way. All of this at anchor in a tropical port. It took a week to remove it and for $30 I had a local welder fabricate a replacement (30% smaller in volume) that would fit without a problem.

I hope it doesn't come to that for you but sometimes that's the only thing you can do.

Craog

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #13 – December 14, 2011, 06:44:31 am

Don, at least on the bright side the steel framework below doesn't look too bad. I'd be inclined to try to wedge the opening a bit to get the tank started out. My experience with poly tanks is that they are some incredibly tough puppies, as long as you don't get em up against something sharp or jagged it's unlikely to hurt em. Your idea of pulling a vac is interesting but doubt it will do much at the ends of the tank which is where your problem is. Once you get it started out it should come out the rest of the way with minimal horsing.

Regarding that steel vertical. I've replaced some "pig iron" type components in my coach for sheer ease of workability with aluminum. If that piece stops and starts at the ends inside that compartment, and it's just tack welded on with the glass laid over it, I wonder if it would be possible to swing it enough to break the tacks and remove it (without cutting back glass and grinding tacks). A 2X2 alum angle trimmed, reinserted and bolted thru the face of the divider would replace it.

Finally, are you sure the tank has to come out? Does the ply floor of the compartment run under or butt into the Rollocked divider?

Chuck

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #14 – December 14, 2011, 08:33:35 am

Don, Since you are getting desperate......
Is the top of the compartment the same width as the Bottom ? If it is not PERHAPS the chassis has sagged enough to squeeze the opening that your are trying to get the tank thru.
How about jacking the frame just enough to square up the opening ? Would that give you enough space to get the tank out ? You could place blocking under the compartment members with the air bags up and then let the bags down to flex the chassis. I cringe when I think about it and when I think that even when you get it out it has to go back in.

Good luck
Gary B

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #15 – December 14, 2011, 10:02:30 am

One of the great things about owning any new or old Foretravel is the support from the factory. Both James and Mark were working there in the 90's so the really know how these great old coaches were built. They have helped me over a dozen times over the last three years. I usually try the Forum first but sometimes you just have to ask the factory. In this case I think it is time for you to call the real experts.

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #16 – December 14, 2011, 12:14:23 pm

Replacing the steel angle iron with aluminum is a thought, and if I end up removing the steel anyway, a no brainer. My next phase is to get a piece of threshold molding or similar that will in effect, make a little ramp to get the tank started past the vertical steel component. It looks like the sun will be out today, so I will know soon...
Don

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – December 14, 2011, 06:44:31 am

Regarding that steel vertical. I've replaced some "pig iron" type components in my coach for sheer ease of workability with aluminum. If that piece stops and starts at the ends inside that compartment, and it's just tack welded on with the glass laid over it, I wonder if it would be possible to swing it enough to break the tacks and remove it (without cutting back glass and grinding tacks). A 2X2 alum angle trimmed, reinserted and bolted thru the face of the divider would replace it.

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #17 – December 14, 2011, 12:17:31 pm

I don't think it will come to that, but if it did, it woul sure be a lot easier to cut the poly tank up in place than you welded steel fuel tank!
Don

Quote from: wa_desert_rat – December 13, 2011, 11:51:16 pm

On our 32-foot cruising sailboat I had a fuel tank (welded steel) become defective. It had been mounted in the engine area (I hesitate to call it a "room") and then the deck and cabin assembly (fiberglass boat) put down and fastened together. Taking the deck off was not an option... and the tank would not come out any other way. So I laid cushions on the engine and used half a hacksaw blade wrapped in electrician's tape to cut it apart by hand. Fortunately the cockpit sole was designed to be removed to allow removal of the engine and I could cut big enough chunks to remove it that way. All of this at anchor in a tropical port. It took a week to remove it and for $30 I had a local welder fabricate a replacement (30% smaller in volume) that would fit without a problem.

I hope it doesn't come to that for you but sometimes that's the only thing you can do.

Craog

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #18 – December 14, 2011, 12:24:54 pm

Gary,
I considered that, but since the bulkhead separation would have the structure hinge at the floor above, if anything it should be making the opening bigger! But the opening doesn't appear to be affected by the bulkhead problem.
Don

Quote from: Gary Bouland – December 14, 2011, 08:33:35 am

Don, Since you are getting desperate......
Is the top of the compartment the same width as the Bottom ? If it is not PERHAPS the chassis has sagged enough to squeeze the opening that your are trying to get the tank thru.
How about jacking the frame just enough to square up the opening ? Would that give you enough space to get the tank out ? You could place blocking under the compartment members with the air bags up and then let the bags down to flex the chassis. I cringe when I think about it and when I think that even when you get it out it has to go back in.

Good luck
Gary B

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #19 – December 14, 2011, 09:25:22 pm

Well, the beast is out... what a struggle. I am including pictures to prove it! I am going to replace that angle iron with a removable piece of aluminum angle before I attempt to put the FW tank back in.I used an old jack and a jury rigged ram that I had to keep lengthening as the tank moved out. It was so tight, that I don't believe an NFL line backer could have pushed it through. Fortunately, it appears to have survived the trip! Tomorrow, I will remove the water pump and the floor of that compartment to have a good look at the subframe and the bulkhead joint... more pictures to come. In the meantime, anybody here have direct experience with POR-15 products for rust control?

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #20 – December 14, 2011, 09:39:10 pm

I am familiar with Ospho. It is very simple to use and works as advertised. Just brush it on or you can use a spray bottle. It is the consistency of water so a little goes a long way. Dries overnight and turns all rust to a black powder. Spray a good oil based paint "rustoleum" type and you're good to go. You may want to undercoat the undercarriage exposed members.

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #21 – December 14, 2011, 11:54:10 pm

Quote from: acousticart – December 14, 2011, 09:25:22 pm

....................In the meantime, anybody here have direct experience with POR-15 products for rust control?........................................

Don,
Quite the project!
Keep up the info. It's very informative.
I'm curious as to whether you have found other clues to help explain the cause of your bulkhead rust jacking and rolock bolting failures.

Were the overflow connections getting all overflow aft of the bulkhead?

Were the floor to vertical bulkhead seams intact?

Was there evidence of fitting leaks in the fresh water compartment?

Was there evidence that the water source was from inside the compartment?

You're the only one that I know of that has chosen the "top down" route. Are there structural things that you have to do above the subframe (that would not be possible to do from below the subframe)?

I've used and I am a big fan of POR-15.

It's a fussy 3 step (or 4, if you final coat with a color or clear coat of your choice) process and one needs to follow ALL of the directions exactly, but the results are beyond equal in my experience.
You have to follow the degrease, dry, surface prep coat, dry, POR-15, dry, sequence in order to achieve success. I've used it on car frames, tow hitches, tractors attacked by salt and tractor driven snow blowers with success (rusty, salted, difficult wear and application areas). Most other products, even OSPHO prepped, would last a few months to a year (tops) before breaking through again. POR-15 has lasted 6 or 7 years since I first used it and it looks as good as new. It does show UV aging, so exposed POR-15 areas have to be top coated to stay looking bright.

Best regards,
Neal

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #22 – December 15, 2011, 12:31:21 am

Don, I for one applaud your effort and never giving up stance with that stuborn water tank. You took on a job no one in their right mind would want to tackle and you came out the victor. Now, I wish you all the luck in getting it back in. A karma to you for all you hard and well earned work.
modify: I need to learn how to give a karma. Hang on I'll get you one.

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #23 – December 15, 2011, 07:58:45 am

KY to reinstall?

Re: Freshwater tank removal, help!!!

Reply #24 – December 15, 2011, 08:49:25 am

Don, This project just proves that anything is possible if you work at it long enough. Good Job
I Second Dave Heads KY Jelly idea, don't know if they sell it in 5 gallon buckets ....

Please keep us up to date, I really want to see the reinstall.
Gary B

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