Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

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Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

December 28, 2011, 12:05:29 pm

A friend on the way to trade at MOT lost all dash electronics and throttle seven miles out of Nacogdoches, leaving him dead beside the road. MOT said it probably a solenoid, they brought one out, replaced behind a big panel by the door, no cost and my friend now owns a 1999 U320. I mentioned this to my expert friend Don Hay and he related it is good to carry a spare solenoid but that Mr. Wolfe had told him some time ago of an electronic switch as an alternative to the solenoid. I searched the Forum for solenoid information and found a reference in 2008 by Greg to a larger solenoid option and to replace every three years to avoid breakdown. I hope Don Hay will add to this....I am just trying to open this topic to perhaps help some new owners that did not know of such a potential problem and possible fixes (carry a spare, change to the switch, a higher amp design??). Thanks for your time and advice as you may have. If it is a switch, where to get those? If a larger solenoid, size? To install on the road, just turn off the key, change wires...or much more?! Sorry to ask you to review an old topic but I learned a lesson yesterday - solenoids can leave you stranded! Best to plan ahead. And thanks again Don Hay. Mike

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #1 – December 28, 2011, 12:28:36 pm

Is this solenoid common to all models or just U320s or certain years? If applicable to all then it would be nice to have a listing - or at least a source - so we can order the spare.

Craig

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #2 – December 28, 2011, 04:27:57 pm

Mike, A work around is to jump the terminals of the solenoid to get started. Sometimes a good sharp smack with a screwdriver handle will work. I BELIEVE that most if not all FT's have THREE solenoids, one in front of passenger in main circuit board area, and TWO in rear near the Isolator. Catch up with any of us somewhere and we will be glad to show you these, they are a vital part of the coach. AND ( in jest ) when all else fails read the instructions, Meaning the wiring digrams.

Gary B

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #3 – December 28, 2011, 04:38:32 pm

Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #4 – December 28, 2011, 04:41:49 pm

Craig,

There are two ways to go: For less than $40 you can get a Cole-Hersee 200 amp, continuous-service, 4 pole solenoid (part no. V30-24143) that could last a few years or it may last only a year or so. I installed two and each lasted about 1 - 1 1/2 years. I finally went with an electronic switch (Blue Seas Solenoid Switch, L-Series, PN 9012) that Brett Wolfe recommended, and I have had no issues with it. However, it costs quite abit more: $160. Here is the link to it:
Solenoid Switch L-Series 12-24V - PN 9012 - Blue Sea Systems. It is guaranteed for more than 1 million cycles (on/off switches). Both of these will work on GrandVillas and on UniCoaches.

I haven't had a problem since putting it in.

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #5 – December 28, 2011, 04:46:52 pm

After having two of the standard ignition solenoids fail within a 2 year period, I installed the Bluesea 9012 250-amp ignition solenoid.

That was a little over 10 years ago-- no issues since.

Brett

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #6 – December 28, 2011, 05:38:27 pm

This seems to be a good replacement for the ignition solenoid. There are only two poles and the ignition solenoid I have has 4 poles. How is this substitute wired?

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #7 – December 28, 2011, 05:42:08 pm

The Bluesea would be the best solution but for those that don't want to shell out $160, the less expensive Cole-Hersee 24213 is a good alternative. Note: the original equipment 24143 has been replaced . See the Cole-Hersee web site for the new part number: Solenoids & Relays24143 | Cole Hersee - Littelfuse . The new 24213 has superior silver tungsten carbide contacts so it should last longer.

And like Gary said, a good smack with a screwdriver or small hammer will often get it going again.

Price is up to about $54 or so now. Since there are several used on our Foretravels, good idea to carry a spare.

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #8 – December 28, 2011, 05:54:51 pm

Is this relay in all the coach model years or is it a GV style issue?

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #9 – December 28, 2011, 05:55:38 pm

Quote from: Peter & Beth – December 28, 2011, 05:38:27 pm

This seems to be a good replacement for the ignition solenoid. There are only two poles and the ignition solenoid I have has 4 poles. How is this substitute wired?

Peter,

It installs just like the other solenoids-- two large lugs, ground lug and "activation/positive" lug.

The difference is that this is a 1 MILLION cycle switch with 450 amps continuous rating, To me, overkill beats the heck out of being stranded on the side of the road, and that is what happens if the ignition solenoid fails.

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #10 – December 28, 2011, 06:01:03 pm

Quote from: John S – December 28, 2011, 05:54:51 pm

Is this relay in all the coach model years or is it a GV style issue?

John,

To my knowledge, 100% of the coaches use one. Let's look at "what it does for a living":

There are a lot of 12 VDC items that only work with the ignition on. Some large amp draws like the dash HVAC fan. It also includes come critical items, such as the Allison ECM. WAY too many amps to run that through an ignition switch. So, the ignition switch is just used as the "signal" to close a relay/solenoid to power all those circuits. The more things that only work with the ignition on, the more amps this solenoid works with. This is a very good idea, but the reality is that the OE solenoids DO fail. The upgraded/expensive switch is a permanent solution (at least, I have never heard of one that has failed). Can you stick with a "regular" constant duty solenoid-- of course. But they clearly are not rated for the kind of use the Bluesea electronic switch is rated for.

BTW, I was introduced to Bluesea on electrical equipment for our sailboat-- kind of a bummer of the electrical system fails hundreds of miles off-shore.

Brett

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #11 – December 28, 2011, 06:20:08 pm

Thanks Brett, I thought it might be the same but was not sure. I might upgrade mine one day here. I used to tinker with a sailboat too. Did a bunch of off shore stuff and yes I have come in under sail alone a few times. Learned to sail backwards once too by holding the main out at a broad reach with an oncoming wind. Got out of the slip pretty slick and then sailed out of the harbor. I used to teach sailing for a while then taught docking and would ask the students how to get in and out with out an engine... never figured I would really need it.

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #12 – December 28, 2011, 06:27:29 pm

Quote from: John S – December 28, 2011, 06:20:08 pm

Thanks Brett, I thought it might be the same but was not sure. I might upgrade mine one day here. I used to tinker with a sailboat too. Did a bunch of off shore stuff and yes I have come in under sail alone a few times. Learned to sail backwards once too by holding the main out at a broad reach with an oncoming wind. Got out of the slip pretty slick and then sailed out of the harbor. I used to teach sailing for a while then taught docking and would ask the students how to get in and out with out an engine... never figured I would really need it.

Yup, I learned to sail at Culver Military Academy. Three summers of sailing with not one of the boats having auxiliary power. So, indeed you learn to sail in "IRONS" ("backwards" for non sailors) as well as forward. Been there, done that.

But, offshore on our many sailboat trips from Texas to the Bahamas, loosing 12 VDC with just the two of us onboard would be a MAJOR pain in the backside, as that would mean no depth meter, no GPS, not nav lights, no autopilot, etc. Hand-steering for 48 hours straight is not for me.

Brett

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #13 – December 28, 2011, 06:33:27 pm

I carry a Tyco Kilovac ev200 sires relay as a spare.

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #14 – December 28, 2011, 07:17:56 pm

I have felt your pain. No GPS and no depth finder and no autopilot too. Oh well, that is life on a boat at times. It makes you appreciate it when you have it all working right. I had my boat in Annapolis and used to race the weekly races as well as the long races to Block Island and Bermuda and others too. I think I will go out and get a spare solenoids to carry tomorrow.

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #15 – December 28, 2011, 07:29:34 pm

Thanks for the part numbers. I'm going to get a spare, at the very least.

Our sailboat, which we built from a hull-and-deck kit, was set up for world cruising with no power necessary. It was 1980 to 1985 so GPS (as we all know it today) was nonexistent. I had (and still have) a good Tamaya sextant with HO249 and 4 nautical almanacs (they can be re-used). We later installed solar panels and built a wind generator but the boat was fully seaworthy with zero DC power (kerosine lights and a wind-vane self steering system). Having power definitely made life easier (and safer with ham radio).

As it turned out, five years with no real power issues. I should have never come back.

Craig
K7EXJ

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #16 – December 28, 2011, 07:53:32 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – December 28, 2011, 05:55:38 pm

Peter,

It installs just like the other solenoids-- two large lugs, ground lug and "activation/positive" lug.

The difference is that this is a 1 MILLION cycle switch with 450 amps continuous rating, To me, overkill beats the heck out of being stranded on the side of the road, and that is what happens if the ignition solenoid fails.

Brett,
Thanks, I suppose I was looking at their web site's picture the wrong way. I somehow only saw 2 poles vs the 4 poles the solenoid has.

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #17 – December 28, 2011, 08:04:27 pm

Quote

Yup, I learned to sail at Culver Military Academy.

Brett,
Very small world. What years did you go to CMA, likely around the 60's? When I lived in Plymouth, IN (1979 - 1986) I used to play golf at their 9 hole golf course. George Steinbrenner's son attended there between 1979 and 1983 (or so, I believe).

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #18 – December 28, 2011, 08:13:33 pm

My most sincere thanks to each for your help. I think I know the way we will go, the $160 fix sounds like money well spent and not so much compared to other expenses. And I enjoyed the sailing dialogue. Interesting. Thanks again. Mike

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #19 – December 28, 2011, 08:13:38 pm

Graduated Culver Summer School (Sailing) 1966. Graduated Culver Winter School 1967.

Brett

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #20 – December 28, 2011, 08:44:14 pm

Quote

I suppose I was looking at their web site's picture the wrong way. I somehow only saw 2 poles vs the 4 poles the solenoid has

Peter,

I had the very same concern. It is their picture that doesn't show the two smaller poles. I asked Brett in private email whether it (BlueSea) actually had the additional two (ignition post and ground post). He reassured me and once it came in the mail, sure enough it has 4 poles, 2 large lugs, 2 smaller ones. The large lugs are a bit longer, so it is a little easier to get all the wire terminals on each lug and get the nut to "take" or grab the threads than it is on the Cole-Hersee.

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #21 – December 29, 2011, 11:50:49 am

My U-225 main keyed solenoid failed last month, it had been giving me warnings for the last couple of trips. In our case I was seeing the voltage meter on the dash go to 0, and then come back on to normal. We lost function of dash instruments, and AC controls, and airhorn, and HWH jack system.

I now have a new one installed, but plan to carry a spare or do as Brett suggested, and upgrade to a Bluesea unit.

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #22 – December 29, 2011, 03:39:18 pm

I installed a Bluesea unit last fall. Might have been overkill, but who knows.

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #23 – January 05, 2012, 12:19:20 am

In recent follow-up with MOT on a 2001 being made ready for us, I asked should I purchase an extra key solenoid or the electric switch, etc. and that I wanted to see how to install the device (I would guess turn off the key and get out the pliers). I heard MOT to say that due to my concern, they checked the solenoid and it had already been replaced under a FOT recall. If I understood correctly, two devices now replace the one that was original and recalled. Perhaps those of you more familiar with this can shed light on that. Otherwise I can run over to FOT tomorrow and get my facts together (it would not be MOT that would be incorrect, just me being too happy to hear it was all okay rather than trying to study it!). I hope this helps. Mike

Re: Dash solenoid can leave you stranded

Reply #24 – January 05, 2012, 09:13:41 am

Mike,

Yes, dividing the load carried by the OE ignition solenoid onto two solenoids lessens the chance of failure. As does replacing with a better/electronic switch.

And to replace it, disconnect chassis battery positive, as that supplies one of the large lugs on the solenoid and touching a wrench from that to any metal would cause a direct short. Then, a simple matter to mark each wire (easy to put a piece of tape with #1, #2, #3 and if a separate small ground lug #4), remove from old solenoid and install on the new one. Very simple. Nothing particularly unique about these constant duty solenoids-- they are available at most places that service things like fork lifts.

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