Starting challenge, what gives?

Topic: Starting challenge, what gives? (Read 1045 times) previous topic - next topic

Starting challenge, what gives?

May 15, 2012, 11:48:00 pm

Last year in August we were at a state camp ground and just dumping our tanks. I shut the coach off, did the deal and came back to find it would not start. It turned over with no problem and would turn over for a good little bit. I tried a couple times, wiggled the shift handle to make sure it was in neutral and tried again. It fired up. Now at that time I cannot say for sure that it was the wiggle or not.
This happened another time but after the coach sat all winter I think it may have been in the barn sometime in the spring. This time it just turned over and wouldn't start. I thought "what the heck!!" and after setting there for a few very short moments she fired right up.
There is never any different sound, feel or anything...it just don't start.
So, this afternoon while working on the air leak, I ran the coach for 20 minutes to test the air dryer and see what info I could gather and share. When I shut it off I thought to myself, "I wonder?" I no more than shut it off and turned the key again and it would only turn over but not fire. At that time I was messing with that air gauge with the broken line under the dash and found myself inside the little box with shifter cables that the shift handle attaches to....it was right above that gauge. I realized that the little "lock in place" gizmo wasn't engaging so I started dinking around with that. There I noticed the contact points that had to be made in order to actually start the coach and once I investigated, everything in there was ok. I figured I'd go do something and come back in a bit to check her again. Actually I found myself checking for air leaks and by the time I got back to the engine compartment on the passanger side I seen the filter primer and thought I'd give it a pump or two. After I did that I remembered that I was going to try to start it again. By now it was about 30 minutes later and it fired right up.
This made me curious and thought that it had something to do with the primer in the filter so I shut it off and tried to restart it and it would not start. Now I'm frustrated!! I got back out, primed it a couple pumps and tried again...nothing. I sat there a few more minutes and tried again, but nothing.
I hit the boost switch and all it did was turn over faster although it was turning over just fine without it.
I have just replaced the fuel filter and fuel / water separator...2 days ago. The fuel tank is 3/4 + full.
It's weird because there just don't seem to be any constant situation that causes it to start back up. I'll bet I go to the barn in the morning and hit the key and it fires right up without fail.
Is there any type of sensor that has to reset if it don't start? I wouldn't think so.
My batteries are fine, full and delivering good amps.

Any thoughts? This isn't a good thing and I have no idea what it could be.

Thanks in advance

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #1 – May 16, 2012, 12:12:48 am

Carl,

I suspect your engine has a fuel return (check) valve. It holds the fuel up at the engine once the engine is turned off. If the valve fails, the fuel starts going back toward the engine. I had the same symptoms; in fact, I turned off the engine while refueiling, on our way out west, and couldn't get it started right there at the truck stop! Finally, after 3-4 tries, it started up. Scared me; we ended up having that return valve replaced in North Platte, Nebraska at a diesel repair shop. It's not a big deal to do, for a mechanic who has a new one and they aren't very expensive ($20-$30 plus labor). I doubt that your air system had anything to do with this problem.

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #2 – May 16, 2012, 12:57:39 am

Hi Don and thanks for the advice. I will ask the neighbor to check on one for me and add it to my list of "he-must-do" lol.
I didn't think it had anything to do with the air problem...I knew it was completely different, just a pain in the backside to be one thing then another. We have had so few issues with our old girl so I can't complain

Nice to hear from you sir

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #3 – May 16, 2012, 08:26:31 am

Carl, The 3208 had originally a square glass filter sometimes known as a JOHN DEERE filter. If you have one it is mounted on the left side and you can see the fuel level in it. These are notorious for leaking seals. I eventually had to take mine off the 85 ORED I had and replaced it with a spin on filter. Not a hard job. The trick to starting a 3208 that has air in the filter or lines is to have one person pump the primer while another turns the key to start.
Gary B

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #4 – May 16, 2012, 08:33:31 am

I would suspect the fuel cutoff solenoid. When the engine does not start, leave the ignition on, walk back to the solenoid and push up on the plunger at the bottom and see if it won't go up more, then start. If it still does not start, disconnect it and wire the rack lever full open and try.

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #5 – May 16, 2012, 05:54:25 pm

Twig, I cannot tell what the fuel cutoff solenoid is or where it's located.
Gary, no JOHN DEERE filter visible at all.
Don...( or someone ) Where is the fuel return (check) valve located and what might it look like?

I have spent the better part of 6 hours+ setting on my engine today with an air wand and compressed air and have been blowing the CRUD off of my engine. I really didn't think my engine was all that dirty, but BOY WAS I MISTAKEN!!!! I was thinking about putting it all in a box and weighing it just for laughs but it's become no laughing matter. I have scraped and blown, blown back and fourth, blown up and down, moved things that I could move and everything else I could think of and it have been an incredible mess. I have to say...it may not show it on the gauges but it will breathe better and be cooler.

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #6 – May 16, 2012, 07:12:35 pm

Carl,

Here is where the check valve and hand pump are on my U300. This is down on the frame inside the rear engine door. The gold one is new replacing the cracked silver one. The crack let air in the system. I put new O rings on the hand pump as this was also a source of a air leak.

FYI: Check valve was $31, O rings $0.10 each

Pierce

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #7 – May 16, 2012, 07:20:47 pm

Carl,

Does your coach have the rear or side radiator? If it is a side radiator, you can see the fuel cutoff solenoid on the right (passenger side) when at the rear. I have attached a pic to show its location on my Cummins C8.3. Unfortunately, the pic is on its side. Don't know how to turn it. I also had text to show the solenoid (cylinder) and the black lever. The lever is raised by the solenoid to allow fuel to flow.

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #8 – May 16, 2012, 09:56:57 pm

The fuel shut off solenoid on the 3208 is on the top of the engine immediatly in front of where the altenator is mounted. It is about 1 1/4 inches in diameter and stands about 5 inches tall and has one wire going to the top of the solenoid. When the key is turned on you should be able to hear it click if the bed is raised up. You can take it out , by removing the 2 mounting bolts and it should start and will not stop until the solenoid is reinstalled, so you can check that out. Need to make sure that when the key is on there are 12 volts to the solenoid.

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #9 – May 16, 2012, 10:12:23 pm

Cat 3208
Is this it on the left, I think?

It is heck when your trying to do this stuff by yourself. I have the same thing going on with my Cummins 5.9.

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #10 – May 17, 2012, 12:53:07 am

Well, it's been a LONG day mostly spent on my knees on the engine of the coach. I've seen what I believe to be just about everything there is to see on or around it. Now that I have seen what the check valve and hand pump look like, I know where my hand pump is but didn't realize that's what the check valve looked like so I will have to check again tomorrow. Thanks Pierce. Don, I appreciate the pic buddy but I have a rear radiator and not the same engine as you. I have to be completely honest and I'm most likely at fault here, but I just don't see any type of fuel cutoff solenoid at all.
I talked to my neighbor this afternoon about tightening my 2 belts for the alt and the compressor. I thought the compressor was freezing up or something because after tightening the belts and starting the engine I noticed that the compressor pulley seemed to sort of stop for split seconds and keep going. I thought it was really odd. He suggested that I take off the belts and turn the compressor pulley by hand to see that its moving normal and also to be sure I hadn't sheared a pin if it had one. At the same time he thought I should sand the pulleys at each point of contact just to make sure there wasn't any grime on them. That was a real pain in the backside!!
I did all of the above and restarted the engine again. It squeaked for a while but I let it build up air pressure so I could block it up and tighten the rest of my belts. After the pressure came up a bit the squeaking slowed down and at times stopped but then not completely. Once I shut it off ....it wouldn't start back up....again. I am thankful that it's on my property and in a barn so it can be dealt with hassle free.

Here is what I found as far as fuel lines, filters etc. A line comes from the fuel tank up front and connects directly to the fuel / water separator. Right next to that is the fuel filter and a line connects the two. Built onto the top diaphragm of the fuel filter is the hand pump. ( I will look there for a check valve in the morning ) There is only one line coming from the fuel filter and after tightening all the rest of my belts, I followed that line to the top of my engine....almost dead center top and it screwed to a small aluminum box or block. It was only about 2" tall x 1" wide and maybe 2 1/2" long. There were no wires, nothing electric and I don't think any other lines came from it. It's like fuel was dumped right into the top of the engine and that was it. I went back to the original line coming from the front and followed it a second time to be sure before I posted and that's how it is.
Needless to say....it wouldn't start when all was done...I gave the hand pump a couple (15) pumps and tried again but nothing at all. I can also add that there is no smell of fuel and none leaking anyplace front or rear. All belts are now tight and I am looking forward to hearing it once it will start.
I did notice that after tightening the belts on the air and alt that the air level seemed to raise slower than usual. I was starting from empty and raising the coach to high to block it up though, so it could have been imagination.

That's it for today

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #11 – May 17, 2012, 12:54:56 am

Thanks Pat & Ron...I will have another look at it tomorrow and see what gives

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #12 – May 17, 2012, 07:53:09 am

On your other post read again post no 34 about belts tightening . It's from (red tractor) Ron. Those 2 belt have to be real tight. Most of the time they are overlook and will do what it does now.
easy to do but extensive time.

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #13 – May 17, 2012, 09:53:30 am

I'm just heading back out now. I honestly didn't think I could ever be so sore anymore but yesterday really did me in. I haven't been back to work yet as I've been off since Jan.1 from right arm shoulder surgery and just ended PT about 3 weeks ago. I feel like someone took me out behind the barn and beat me with a 2x4....for long periods of time.
Those two belts mentioned, on my unit are connected to the crank and the fan. On top of my fan is an apparatus that is a tightening bracket with built it bolt adjustment and locking mechanism. I'm familiar with this because the last time I messed with it, back when I first installed the new belts just before leaving for a trip to Tennessee, one of the bolts came loose and BLEW THRU my radiator.....thus causing a lot of stress with back woods folk in Troy Ohio. I know exactly the belts that are spoke of. Seriously they seemed tight yesterday. I now use loctite!!! That's why I say they are tight....I made SURE of it last time they were adjusted.
I will look for the fuel shut off solenoid and check valve. If I can figure out how to post pics I might snap a couple and post of my dash compartment and also of the top of my engine.

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #14 – May 17, 2012, 12:20:30 pm

I went out an turned the key a while ago and the coach started right up as I suspected it would do. I listened...since tightening all the belts last night and it was not starting for me then, There was NO SQUEAKING!! Then I wondered, if I shut it off will it start? Sure did! So now very curious....I turned it off and waited a few seconds and turned the key again....started right up!!

Is it possible that any of my loose belts would have caused a loss of prime in fuel or for one of the fuel parts to not operate correctly?

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #15 – May 17, 2012, 01:19:07 pm

Carl,
Sorry to hear you're having such a hard time with your Foretravel. I can only add that you should incorporate an exercise routine every 30 days...the coach that is...I'm sure the PT is taking care of your arm and shoulder which I know can be really painful and difficult.

Drive it for 30 miles each month to ensure all is working as it should...the genset, all A/C's, furnace, all propane systems, etc. (I don't exercise the fridge...either leave it on 100% of the time, or use it when you need to during trips).

Then make a list of stuff that needs attention...fix those...otherwise it becomes overwhelming to fix the stuff that goes bump from lack of use.

Imagine how your body would function after being laid up in a bed for 6 months without exercise...

Peter

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #16 – May 17, 2012, 02:03:41 pm

I've started and stopped the engine about 6 times today and it hasn't let me down once. What could have happened to cause it to just operate like it should without my doing anything with the fuel part of the system?

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #17 – May 17, 2012, 05:20:48 pm

Since you are not having to bleed the engine to get it to start, I doubt you have a fuel flow issue. The cutoff solenoid MUST have constant 12v to hold the fuel rack in the open position. One thing to look for would be the wire to the solenoid to be grounding out on the engine somewhere.

In addition, the solenoid is spring operated. It is possible that the interior spring is broken and at times, the plunger will hang up. The only way to troubleshoot it is to ( 3208T only ) REMOVE it from the housing and try starting (this will be during that odd time when it would not start). To kill the engine you would have to push it back into the housing.

If you stand at the foot of the bed, lean over, and imagine you FELL into the engine compartment and put your hand out in front of you to break the fall onto the 3208, that would be the approximate position where it is. About middle, kinda towards the rear of the motorhome. It is cylindrical, about 3" high and 1" diameter standing up.

Caveat: memory from 10 years ago.

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #18 – May 19, 2012, 08:40:02 pm

Seems like to me way back 20 years ago we had some equipment with 3208s in them. If I remember right the fuel shut off solenoid would get a little temperamental when they get old. Brett Wolf may be able to tell you what the resistance on it should be.

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #19 – May 20, 2012, 10:24:47 am

Carl, I am confused about the engine. I may have missed it when reading through this thread. What engine do you have?

Re: Starting challenge, what gives?

Reply #20 – May 20, 2012, 03:39:21 pm

Some diesels are a bit tempermental to start after sitting for weeks or months when a little air finds it's way into the fuel system. When started on a regular basis, they may start fine until the next time they come out of long term storage.

I don't believe in too many engine ground connections. Never hurts to run a secondary cable to both the frame and engine. So many electrical problems in an RV are found to be ground related. Electrical connections in close proximity to the engine are also prone to vibration issues where a wire may break but still make intermittent contact. Was thinking of the fuel solenoid in particular. These can be difficult to find.

I have never liked the fuel solenoid that depends on 12V to open the fuel supply. Always thought that a mechanical, vacuum or solenoid method of shutting off the fuel supply was much more reliable.

A terrific site on CAT 3208 engines, history, rebuilding, tips, etc can be found at: Rebuilding the CAT 3208 Diesel: Engine Builder A good read for any diesel fan. For Detroit fans, remember, CAT builds a lot of 2 cycle diesels also.

Pierce

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