Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Topic: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem? (Read 1949 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #25 – May 22, 2012, 02:12:26 pm

Pat, its great to see someone who is proud of their employer and their profession. Yea, driving a big rig is a profession or at least it used to be. Thanks for you comments.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #26 – May 22, 2012, 06:28:38 pm

If I'm reading this correctly/my take:
-a minor (let's say 1% or so of gas can be added to diesel, to inhibit gelling in winter/freezing conditions/maybe add some octane/cetane punch as in better ignition purposes in winter)
-Kerosene(quite close) might be acceptable in dire needs.... as a blend.
and---Ultra low and low sulpher diesel fuels are of concern on "Older diesels".

If so, on the older diesel comment, we have run for years on advice from an Army friend running floating nuclear power plant for Panama Canal, to add 1 Qt. of 2 cycle oil to 100 gallons of low sulpher diesel to add "lublicity" back into the fuel.

I have followed his advice for a decade and many others too, but yes, I do understand there are 'many' additives that one can buy off the shelf in the U.S. but wonder if any of this forums sharp folks can add a comment here?

thanks in advance, ron

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #27 – May 22, 2012, 07:31:32 pm

You will have an issue if you do it to a late model coach with a particulate filter on it I would think.
Older coaches no problem issues with that.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #28 – May 22, 2012, 07:41:09 pm

Finally!! We have a subject to which I can contribute rather just soak up information.

I worked for 30+ years at a refinery. I was Process Supervisor over many different refinery operating units during my career. My areas of responsibility included the fuel truck loading terminal, the pipeline receiving and shipping tank farm, crude distillation units where we produced gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, and kerosene, the alkylation units which procude a very high octane component for gasoline, and the distillate hydrotreaters which remove sulphur from diesel, kerosene, and jet fuel.

I'm telling you this just to say that I think I do have some knowledge of the subject. Also, reading Pat C's comments I can tell that he too has been there, done that.

First, I think it would take a serious mistake on the part of a truck driver to leave 300 gallons of product in a tank. When a tanker drops their load at the retail store, it is all a gravity flow downhill drop. The receiving tanks are gauged before and after, and retailer naturally wants every gallon for which they are charged on the bill of lading. When the tanker drops their load, it all goes into the storage tanks.

There is one scenario with which I am familiar. A truck driver once accidentally loaded a couple hundred gallons of gasoline into tank designated for diesel before he realized that he'd made a mistake. He stopped the pumping, then finished filling the tank with about 1200 gallons of diesel. The bill of lading clearly showed both products. He wanted me to change the BOL so that it showed pure diesel, for his boss would get mad if he found out. I, of course, would not change the BOL, and he had to drop the entire load into a waste tank to be re-refined. This situation would be extremely rare, and would not be tolerated by any manager.

Some tank trucks have 4 or 5 compartments and can haul any grades of gas and diesel. These are the tankers you see at your local gasoline stations. However, tankers that haul only diesel almost entirely to truck stops have only one large 7300 gallon compartment and are dedicated to diesel.

A little (very little) gasoline will contaminate a large quantity of diesel. I don't remember the exact specs off the top of my head, but the initial boiling point and the flash point of gasoline is much lower than that of diesel. Even a 5% blend would not meet pipeline specs. By the same token the distillation end point of diesel is a lot higher than gasoline, so a little diesel would contaminate gasoline too. Refiners go to a great deal of trouble to prevent mixing. In the real world we might get away with a little missing, but the refiners and retailers would never knowingly do that.

#2 diesel is a kissing cousin to kerosene and jet fuel. Kerosene and jet are for all practical purposes the same product. They are just a slightly lighter cut (lower end point) than diesel. Winter grade diesel has a lower cloud point than summer grade diesel, and cloud point is proportional to end point. So, yes, if you have #2 diesel and want to run it in cold weather, mix it with kerosene or jet fuel.

Low sulphur diesel is an EPA mandated product. Prior to 1991 diesel had up to 5000 ppm (0.5%) sulphur. You may remember the constant blue haze coming off the truck exhaust stacks. This was the haze that covered Los Angeles. In 1991 refiners had to produce diesel with less than 500 ppm, (0.05%)or a reduction of 10-fold. A few years later, about 2002, the specs changed again, with a max of 50 ppm. Finally, in 2009 the specs changed again with a max of 15 ppm. It costs a tremendous amount of money to build and operate the huge hydrotreaters to produce ultra-low sulphur diesel. The problem with low sulphur diesel was not lubricity, but instead had to do with the type of seals used in the injector pumps. I'm relying on memory, but I think they had to go to viton seals versus the old standard of buna-N seals.

Sorry to bore you, but I felt I needed to shed some light on this subject.

Glen

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #29 – May 22, 2012, 08:00:11 pm

Glen, not boring at all. Thanks for the info.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #30 – May 22, 2012, 08:18:19 pm

Glen, thanks! Great feedback!

I was ready to head off on a circumnavigation in '04, with an '88 Ford Lehman non aspirated diesel. Pulled injectors and had them rebuilt at a top shelf marine shop in lauderdale, fl.
My info was that 'lubricity and sulpher' had to do more with wearing of rings and cylinder walls, rather than seals.

From what you are saying, the low sulpher diesel might be affecting the wearing of the formulations of the seals rather than or moreso, the metal to metal components?

If one or the other, do you believe commercial additives or simply adding a lubricant like 2 cycle oil in minor amounts can benefit the 'seals or rings'?
What is your suggestion for older diesels.............back 10 years or so?

again, thanks in advance!! ron

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #31 – May 22, 2012, 08:20:52 pm

Very interesting article Glenn.
If the problem is not lubricity with the ULSulphur then why have a number of companies jumped om the low sulphur and come out with additives to increase lubricity?? I think we all knew there was some problem with the pumps if you have a post 2007 engine and use the old high sulphur fuel (ie-Mexican product at the moment). Is not sulphur a lubricant of sorts in the Diesel?
John h

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #32 – May 22, 2012, 08:51:36 pm

Here is a article on 15 and 30 ppm diesel south of the border as well as a link to monthly diesel prices: Current Mexican gasoline and diesel fuel cost

Diesel is approx. 3.04 USD per gallon depending on exchange rate this month.

Pierce

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #33 – May 22, 2012, 09:12:45 pm

Guys, my bad. What I said about lubricity is technically true, but factually wrong! I'm pasting a link to an article that is written by people much smarter than am I.

Does John Deere allow the use of Ultra-Low-Sulfur diesel fuel? :

Basically, I was correct when I stated that sulphur in itself does not increase the lubricity. However, the hydrotreating process that removes the sulfur also removes some of the aromatics which DO increase the lubricity.

So I was right and wrong at the same time!

Glen

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #34 – May 23, 2012, 01:29:33 am

Quote from: John Haygarth – May 22, 2012, 08:20:52 pm

If the problem is not lubricity with the ULSulphur then why have a number of companies jumped om the low sulphur and come out with additives to increase lubricity??

I think the problem is lack of lubricity!!! The injector pump folks say the problem is lubricity. But there is some real snake oil out on the market, and only a couple good additives which increase the lubricity of the USLD. Take a look at the following pdf from http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44499 You don't even want to think about putting Lucas, Howes, or even Power Services in your fuel!!! The Lucas even makes it worse than the base line!

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #35 – May 23, 2012, 10:19:56 am

Pat,

Good work! Looks like Professor Hill has been making and selling a lot of them. Will print this out to keep in the cab. I always bought some additive but it was a pig in a poke.

Pierce

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #36 – May 23, 2012, 07:35:44 pm

good info all!
seems my old friend in Panama was correct for us cruising sailboats/older engines/ maybe non-aspirated engines..., for suggesting 2 cycle engine oil as an additive when fueling up with the lower sulphur fues., however looks like he should have doubled the dose.

Not a FT thing specifically because we can buy better products, but poor fishermen running diesels in their fishing boats supplied from major suppliers of the big countries doing the shipping, are also without the 'O'Rielly's, Auto Barns, Walmart stores. However, I will now pick up better products. Thanks!

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #37 – May 23, 2012, 08:13:57 pm

Just to clear my head, From what I have read in the above article, I should be adding approximately; 62 oz of "Super-Tech" Outboard 2 cycle TC-W3 engine oil, to each 194 gallon fill-up of ultra low sulphur diesel fuel. and this would assist in the lubrication of my injector pump seals, and replace some of the lubricating qualities that are being removed during refining.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #38 – May 23, 2012, 08:45:06 pm

Gerry, From what i'm reading there and from 10 year old info from top notch 3rd world input (and I have to admit to CRS syndrome-I read this somewhere/before) YES. Maybe it's not the 'best' money can buy in the U.S. but it is certainly better than nothing if you use U.S. fuel..............and at the cost and availability, it's a step in the right direction. Think of what it does for gasoline engines with NO oiled bearings............(can't hurt).

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #39 – May 24, 2012, 03:13:26 pm

Quote from: Gerry Vicha – May 23, 2012, 08:13:57 pm

Just to clear my head, From what I have read in the above article, I should be adding approximately; 62 oz of "Super-Tech" Outboard 2 cycle TC-W3 engine oil, to each 194 gallon fill-up of ultra low sulphur diesel fuel. and this would assist in the lubrication of my injector pump seals, and replace some of the lubricating qualities that are being removed during refining.

Okay, anybody out there going to confirm? Are the prehistoric (prior to 2002) coaches in danger of damaging parts due to ULSD? If so, which are the most likely to go bump in the night? And is the 2 cycle oil thing a myth or real?
Peter

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #40 – May 24, 2012, 03:29:18 pm

peter
two stroke oil is no myth as far as i'm concerned. I have been
adding 16 fl.ozs of 2 stroke (super tech from walmart) every
time I fuel up. I have been doing this for more than 12 years.
lubrication is a good thing, especially now with the low sulphur.
this has been hashed out in the past, but to each his own!

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #41 – May 24, 2012, 03:44:06 pm

Quote from: Wayne Macauley – May 24, 2012, 03:29:18 pm

peter
two stroke oil is no myth as far as i'm concerned. I have been
adding 16 fl.ozs of 2 stroke (super tech from walmart) every
time I fuel up. I have been doing this for more than 12 years.
lubrication is a good thing, especially now with the low sulphur.
this has been hashed out in the past, but to each his own!

Wayne,
Thanks for the reply. I suppose if the addition of 2 cycle oil does no harm, why not use it if it can prevent premature wear.
Peter

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #42 – May 24, 2012, 05:14:08 pm

Quote

Just a quick note: Neither Caterpillar nor Cummins have a recommendation of any additive to make ULSD compatible with all engines, irrespective of age. Said another way, they do not endorse any additive. That does not mean the additive would be bad, just that they don't see the need for them and have not tested them.

Don't know about DD.

Brett

Okay Brett,

Care to disclose what you do? Inquiring minds want to know. And we will not hold anything against you. Unless its a 21 year old blonde!.

Oh no..now I really did it.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #43 – May 24, 2012, 05:45:42 pm

Peter,

You DO KNOW that Dianne can both read and write (and does so very well). Be afraid, VERRRRRRY afraid.

I add a BIOCIDE if storing diesel over 2 months in the summer or 3 months in the winter.

Also, if storing summer grade diesel (#2) into winter, add an anti-gel.

That's it.

Brett

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #44 – May 24, 2012, 06:07:45 pm

Brett,
Danke schoen...very good input. And yes, I gotta watch myself from time to time...

Peter

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #45 – May 24, 2012, 09:36:58 pm

I add an anti gell from time to time especially if I am traveling in the winter. I go to Nac for service many Januarys and then not he way home I can go from 70 degrees to 5 degrees and we have large tanks. So, I will put in some anti gell and that is about it. I am at 124,000 on this coach and no issues. Had an oil analyst done to at cummins and they found nothing out of line either.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #46 – May 24, 2012, 09:38:05 pm

I'm going to start and continue to add Super Tech 2 cycle oil to my fuel Immediately! By my figures it should be 1 gallon oil per 200 gallons of fuel @ that I should arrive at 200/1 ratio... Cheap Insurance.....

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #47 – May 24, 2012, 09:54:13 pm

Quote from: John S – May 24, 2012, 09:36:58 pm

I add an anti gell from time to time especially if I am traveling in the winter. I go to Nac for service many Januarys and then not he way home I can go from 70 degrees to 5 degrees and we have large tanks.

That is when you really need it, cause the winter blend is blended for the low ambient temps at the station when it is being delivered to. So when you are going from a warm area into a cold area, the fuel you started with will not do it!

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #48 – May 24, 2012, 10:45:49 pm

Yup, that is very true and remember to run the genset to get it thru there as well.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #49 – May 25, 2012, 09:22:41 am

After reading the referenced article, it seems like the thing to do would be to take on a full tank of bio diesel and then refill with reg diesel when tank is down 50%. On my 140 gallon tank that means I could pump in a total of 490 gallons (including the original bio fill) and still be at 3% ratio after burning this. That's real close to 5000 miles, seems like it ought to be possible to find another bio supplier in this range.

edit. After looking into it a bit more it appears that biodiesel attacks rubber and butyl. I don't know how much actual rubber and butyl are in the fuel system so this could be an issue. It might be that having a 20 gallon header tank and pump, similar to the bypass oil system, would work well and keep concentrations around 2%.

Chuck

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