Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Topic: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem? (Read 1949 times) previous topic - next topic

Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

May 20, 2012, 12:46:21 pm

While sitting in the Foretravel customer waiting room last week, we were told that if you buy diesel at anything other than a major truck stop that use their own delivery trucks dedicated to diesel you are probably getting gasoline mixed in with your diesel. According to this gentleman who used to drive tankers, when a jobber delivers diesel they usually use the same tanker that they use for gasoline. Normally the tanker may have up to several hundred gallons of gas in the tank when the refill it with diesel. He felt that sometimes there will be enough gas in the mix that it could cause premature wear on the older diesel engines.

I know we have a couple of former Tanker Drivers on the Forum. Number one, is this an accurate statement? If so, does anyone think there would be enough gas to cause harm?

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #1 – May 20, 2012, 12:51:09 pm

We have found 10% gasoline to diesel, will not hurt it, not great, at one point it was thought it would improve performance in the diesel, Nope. The diesel never seemed to care one way or the other.
Dave M

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #2 – May 20, 2012, 04:36:20 pm

I suppose that by the same rationale there is diesel in the gasoline delivered to retail dealers as well? I can imagine that it would be nealy impossible to pump 100% of the contents if the pumping system is damaged if pumping air.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #3 – May 20, 2012, 05:01:21 pm

Back in the old days when I worked at a trucking company we routinely put gasoline in the trucks diesel tanks in the winter, Never could tell if it made starting easier but the drivers thought it did.
Bad accident due to this procedure, rookie mechanic tried to see how much fuel was in a saddle tank with a lighted match, the gasoline in the diesel tank flared in his face causing serious damage. Even with the input of the safety department the practice continued. It is nice to be retired and such things are now somebody Else's fault.

Gary B

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #4 – May 20, 2012, 05:06:53 pm

Mercedes factory position is up to 10% gasoline or 50% kerosene. Seems like up to 50% jet fuel would work also.

On a long sailing trip, I ran out of diesel but had 50 gallons of kerosene on deck in plastic containers so just used it in the Perkins diesel. Could not tell the difference.

Pierce

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #5 – May 20, 2012, 05:30:58 pm

I drove a tanker in the mid 70's. We hauled both gas and diesel in the same tanks. When the tanks were dumped you would be lucky to get 5 gallon out of it. The company that the gentleman worked for that had "several hundred gallons" left must of had some very unhappy customers.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #6 – May 20, 2012, 05:35:40 pm

Quote from: randy s – May 20, 2012, 05:30:58 pm

I drove a tanker in the mid 70's. We hauled both gas and diesel in the same tanks. When the tanks were dumped you would be lucky to get 5 gallon out of it. The company that the gentleman worked for that had "several hundred gallons" left must of had some very unhappy customers.

That's kinda what I thought. Thanks for the input from someone with experience.

Pat C, what's your input?

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #7 – May 20, 2012, 06:44:44 pm

Back when I had my own truck we used to put 1 or 2 gallons of gasoline in a 150 gallon tank of diesel to keep it from "Gelling" in the extremely cold winter months, (10 degrees or less). also it is my understanding that number 1 diesel is just a more refined version of number 2 diesel. kerosene being number 1 or clear diesel, number 2 having more oil or impurities in it. Today the E.P.A. has changed the term "low sulphur" ? I'm not sure what we are getting now.....

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #8 – May 20, 2012, 07:08:02 pm

Here's some explanation of the crude oil fractional distillation. Something of what a petrochemical engineer would start with...ChemE 101 if you would.
HowStuffWorks "How Oil Refining Works"

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #9 – May 20, 2012, 07:31:45 pm

I had a VW diesel Rabbit back in the early 80s. The factory recommended mixing a gallon of regular with fill ups when the temps got much below freezing. I love VWs but hated that car even with the 45 mpg! Swore I'd never buy another diesel but then meet Big Agnes...

see ya
ken

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #10 – May 20, 2012, 08:02:02 pm

Maybe one of the brains on this panel should figure out a blend that added up comes in cheaper than the #2 we use. Is that possible??
John h

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #11 – May 20, 2012, 09:02:20 pm

Quote from: kenhat – May 20, 2012, 07:31:45 pm

I had a VW diesel Rabbit back in the early 80s. The factory recommended mixing a gallon of regular with fill ups when the temps got much below freezing. I love VWs but hated that car even with the 45 mpg! Swore I'd never buy another diesel but then meet Big Agnes...

see ya
ken

We've had a few good diesel engines since we had a VW diesel engine. We are careful to fuel often with local seasonal fuel. With help from block heaters to keep engine oil warm, the good diesel engines perform well in cold weather. Our experience has been that they are tolerant of reasonable fuel mixtures as long as the fuels are clean and fresh.

I had a Volvo that used a VW diesel engine. The engine was inadequate for the vehicle. I liked the car, but the engine was a real piece of junk. I still kept the car for 17 years. It provided safe, low performance transportation for two teenage drivers. Traded it for $150 credit toward a Suburban to pull a 31' Airstream trailer.

First year we had the Volvo, we filled with diesel in Houston and drove to Oklahoma City for Christmas. Temperatures dropped below 10F. We managed to find about six gallons of kerosene to put into the fuel tank. After we shut it down, we pulled the Volvo with a Cadillac to get it running again. It smelled like a kerosene lamp. Lessons: 1) If you take a diesel engine to cold areas, have and use a block heater; 2) Take care to fill with winter grade fuels when temperatures are cold, or use appropriate additives.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #12 – May 20, 2012, 10:32:08 pm

Going back 50+ years in the petroleum pipeline industry (before I switched to nuclear) we would use the same pipeline to pump all grades of combustable fuel. We would for example run a batch of diesel, then jet fuel, then mogas, then av gas in that order. There is very little interface mixing, then we would reverse order. This did require carefull lab analysis to prevent human error.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #13 – May 21, 2012, 07:06:59 am

Had a long talk with a very good friend that has been a long time John Deer dealer about the gas-- diesel mix thing .His reply is "gas in diesel won't hurt the diesel engine , won't help it either , but it will with out a doubt raise cain on the injector pump "also said "some injector pumps are more prone to early failure with this than others , but all will fail sooner or later . Injector pumps are fairly expensive, so i'd avoid that at all costs . He also said that some engines/injector pumps will take up to 10 % gas for a short period of time . Brad Metzger

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #14 – May 21, 2012, 08:05:57 am

I will say that the big Fuel tanks in our FT help this issue. If you fill up regularly at about half a tank, you will use different stations and should not really have an issue with too much gas in the fuel. I fill up at major truck stops only. I see the trucks coming in to dump fuel and they seem to be all diesel in that tank truck with another one behind it at times same way. I have seen only a few times a Flying J fill up with Gas. So, I have not really worried about it. I would say a contract company might haul different stuff in their trucks more often and that might be an issue at times. Interesting discussion though.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #15 – May 21, 2012, 10:39:57 am

What can be a problem from buying diesel at a low volume dealer isn't the insignificant amount of gas mixed in with it but the condensation build up when the fuel sits in the storage tank for long periods of time.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #16 – May 21, 2012, 11:26:21 am

Kent S said: "According to this gentleman who used to drive tankers, when a jobber delivers diesel they usually use the same tanker that they use for gasoline. Normally the tanker may have up to several hundred gallons of gas in the tank when the refill it with diesel"

Randy S said: "I drove a tanker in the mid 70's. We hauled both gas and diesel in the same tanks. When the tanks were dumped you would be lucky to get 5 gallon out of it. The company that the gentleman worked for that had "several hundred gallons" left must of had some very unhappy customers."

Quote from: Kent Speers – May 20, 2012, 05:35:40 pm

That's kinda what I thought. Thanks for the input from someone with experience.

Pat C, what's your input?

I'm with Randy on this. Had a very hard time believing the person you quoted in your original post. The company I retired from was one of the oldest in the industry, started in operation in 1925. They had a quality reputation to uphold and were fanatical when it came to training their drivers. There was the wrong way, the wrong way, and the company way - and one darn well better be doing it the company way. If they hired a experienced driver who had worked for another petroleum transportation company, they put him through the same training as if he never hauled petroleum products, cause they did not want him bring any old habits with him from the other company. So when I read that your man said it was normal to "have up to several hundred gallons of gas in the tank" before filling it with diesel, I almost flipped. He would not have lasted long where I worked. But our competition, well, they were always in a big hurry, were not well paid, were not well trained, did not have the greatest equipment. And they did not pull any of the brand name, top tier, stations that we did.

I can also state that most petroleum transport companies use dedicated transports (tank trailers) for the new ultra low sulfur diesel because of the tendency of the product to pick up contaminates. And most refineries have a policy against what is called "Switch Loading". There are documented cases of explosions at refinery loading racks caused by switch loading. Switch loading is caused by Diesel fuel, and in particular low and ultra low sulfur diesel fuel, having the capability of accumulating a static electrical charge of sufficient energy to cause a fire/explosion in the presence of lower flashpoint products such as gasoline. The accumulation of such a static charge occurs as the diesel flows through pipelines, filters, nozzles and various work tasks such as tank/container filling, splash loading, tank cleaning; product sampling; tank gauging; cleaning, mixing, vacuum truck operations, switch loading, and product agitation. There is a greater potential for static charge accumulation in cold temperature, low humidity conditions. Every refinery loading rack that I have ever loaded at has signs in each loading bay that reads "No Switch Loading". If you are caught doing this, the penalty is usually being barred from the refinery. But I have to admit that it probably still goes on.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #17 – May 21, 2012, 12:15:06 pm

Quote from: randy s – May 21, 2012, 10:39:57 am

What can be a problem from buying diesel at a low volume dealer isn't the insignificant amount of gas mixed in with it but the condensation build up when the fuel sits in the storage tank for long periods of time.

That is very true as well.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #18 – May 21, 2012, 04:34:17 pm

Thanks Pat, I suspected that the volume of gas was over stated. That would be an awful lot.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #19 – May 21, 2012, 04:45:17 pm

Had a 1980 vw diesel . Had it in Mich for just over 5 years and 500,000 miles before it let go. Great back and forth to work car never added gas to the tank just plugged it the block heater. Gam

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #20 – May 21, 2012, 11:25:53 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – May 21, 2012, 04:34:17 pm

Thanks Pat, I suspected that the volume of gas was over stated. That would be an awful lot.

Wweeellll, over stated, but - I do know of a incident where 5 loads of refinery "water" ended up being delivered to the diesel tanks of a large, well known, truckstop just off the I-90 NYS Thruway. Someone at the refinery turned the wrong valves!!! There were tractor trailers broken down on both sides of the thruway for several miles after they fueled up. The refinery really bit the bullet on that one!

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #21 – May 22, 2012, 08:06:50 am

I saw the same thing happen a few years ago on I 81 but it was a tank that was left open somehow slightly and we had a huge heavy rain come and there was two inches in the parking lot and it went to the lowest point, the diesel tank. There were trucks up and down I 81 with water in their tanks. What tipped them off was the truck that did not make it out of the lot. I was pulling in and decided to wait till the rain let up to fuel and was going to spend the night. I got to see a lot of mobile service trucks and some very unhappy drivers.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #22 – May 22, 2012, 08:50:35 am

Kent, just out of curiosity, was the party that told you about the gas and/or diesel mixes an authority or merely someone passing on a tale that would be attributed to "They" say --, as in "they" say the world will end on Dec. 21,2012.
Just wondering, as you were at FOT and there are knowledgeable people there, and here on this forum.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #23 – May 22, 2012, 10:17:28 am

He claimed to have been a tanker driver at one time. Overall, he was a very knowledgeable guy and pretty credible in our other discussions.

Re: Gas mixed in the Diesel. It this a problem?

Reply #24 – May 22, 2012, 11:02:05 am

It is all about the training procedures of the transport company. When the driver starts his day, he is suppose to physically climb up on top and check each compartment of the tanker and make sure it is empty. After he delivers his load, he is suppose to physically check each compartment again to see if it is empty. If he gauges the stations tank before and after he drops his load, he would know only approximately how much he has delivered. At a truck stop, they can pump a thousand gallons while you are dropping your load. If he and his cohort on the opposite shift are lackadaisical about how they do their jobs, they are going to goof up and end up doing what your fellow described. And I hate to admit that it went on in my profession, but it did. but it went on because the trucking company did not care, and their customers did not care. The company I worked for prided their selves on their long standing quality control and safety record. They did not mind the fact that it cost a little extra money to accomplish that record. Not all petroleum transport companies operate that way. The way some operate is down right scary, but it reflects in their SAFER WEB record.

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